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The cost of the welfare state - challenges posed and solutions

Egg Centric

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Anecdotally, everyone I've known to do delivery work has done it without the proper delivery insurance in place.

Since it's almost 20 years ago now I think I can come clean and say it was the same for me when I was driving my own car (it was a now defunct company called delivery kings that worked in an odd way, a predecesor of just eat that had it not been managed by incompetents would be worth billions now), but that wasn't always the case. This was before IR35 and all that nonsense so it was essentially cash in hand too.

Car was nowhere near as fun as mopeds though. Partly cause this was Cambridge, which even back then was a ballache to drive around (heaven compared to now though) on four wheels.
 
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Merle Haggard

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While not aimed at you personally, I think it's easy to see why young people may feel aggrieved at how different generations are being treated.

We have a state pension policy which ensures pensions increase above inflation, for a generation who didn't have to pay for university; whilst under the latest student loans regime the vast majority will never even pay off their loan in full because the interest outstrips the repayments. House prices relative to income have increased 5x in real terms since the same time a century ago, and 2.5x since 66 years ago (state pension age). Young people are spending proportionately more in accommodation costs, especially since the fall in council housing availability, compared to the current retirement generation, with student loans taken off their income, while pensioners receive above-inflation rises in their state income.

While I don't agree with @Egg Centric's wording as it frames it as a personal issue to yourself, it is a problem, and it's only going to increase the unfairness of inherited wealth.

I did a computer science degree on a Plan 1 student loan and am close to paying it off now, but with the current student loans system, I wouldn't study in the UK if I were 18 again today. I'd be seriously considering moving to mainland Europe.

in those days, 95 1/2 % of school leavers did NOT go to university (spoiler - I was one of the 4 1/2%).
But still unanswered is - how I am holding anyone to ransom by owning my own house? I don't have a gun ...
 

styles

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Since it's almost 20 years ago now I think I can come clean and say it was the same for me when I was driving my own car (it was a now defunct company called delivery kings that worked in an odd way, a predecesor of just eat that had it not been managed by incompetents would be worth billions now), but that wasn't always the case. This was before IR35 and all that nonsense so it was essentially cash in hand too.

Car was nowhere near as fun as mopeds though. Partly cause this was Cambridge, which even back then was a ballache to drive around (heaven compared to now though) on four wheels.
Ah, IR35. The rules which always actually existed but nobody enforced. I contract and I'm outside IR35 because of the working practices (though I won't lie - the money is a big pull factor also). But the market for such roles has fallen drastically. I have contractors I've worked with who have simply retired instead of taking inside IR35 gigs. I imagine the impact of the policy change has been negative on taxpayers' coffers. And as El Reg reported, HMRC had to dismiss a bunch of the contractors who were working on their IR35 status database because HMRC determined them to be inside IR35 and the contractors said stuff that! :D

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

in those days, 95 1/2 % of school leavers did NOT go to university (spoiler - I was one of the 4 1/2%).
But still unanswered is - how I am holding anyone to ransom by owning my own house? I don't have a gun ...
I feel like you've intentionally picked out one part of a long response and ignored the bits you don't feel comfortable answering.

The other commenter didn't literally mean you're holding a gun, don't be silly.
 

Egg Centric

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in those days, 95 1/2 % of school leavers did NOT go to university (spoiler - I was one of the 4 1/2%).
But still unanswered is - how I am holding anyone to ransom by owning my own house? I don't have a gun ...

I own my own house too. But a) I'm in a very fortunate position compared to most of my age group, a lot of it through luck b) I am not unlike many boomers doing things like objecting to every planning application for trivial reasons rather than working to lossen planning law, holding on to the triple lock and winter fuel allowance and other nonsense, failing to save up for my pension despite decades of warnings, objecting to tax rises when the economy was better so that a smaller working population carries a heavier burden now, etc etc
 

Dave61

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in those days, 95 1/2 % of school leavers did NOT go to university (spoiler - I was one of the 4 1/2%).
But still unanswered is - how I am holding anyone to ransom by owning my own house? I don't have a gun ...
I was part of the 95 1/2 % but then again I did a 5 year technical apprenticeship - how many of them are there now ? The industries that provided them have all gone.

I am retired now thanks to private pensions (2 years away from state) but I have seen the workplace change a lot over the years to where it now seems to be a case of do as much as possible for as little as possible to maximise the profits (and hence share price), and nothing else matters. I spent 35 years working in IT and watched as a large IT department that did everything onsite gradually get outsourced and reduced intil just a handful were left managing the providers (who were often overseas). Back then you had a career, today that is mostly gone
 

Merle Haggard

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I own my own house too. But a) I'm in a very fortunate position compared to most of my age group, a lot of it through luck b) I am not unlike many boomers doing things like objecting to every planning application for trivial reasons rather than working to lossen planning law, holding on to the triple lock and winter fuel allowance and other nonsense, failing to save up for my pension despite decades of warnings, objecting to tax rises when the economy was better so that a smaller working population carries a heavier burden now, etc etc
Nothing you have listed in B) apples to me or the people of my age I know well. A sweeping ageist generalisation. An exception might be the 'triple lock' as I have voted for parties that included a promise to keep it in their manifesto, but if you can point out a party that wants to scrap it, I'll give them a whirl. I didn't see any at the last election,

/snip

We have a state pension policy which ensures pensions increase above inflation, for a generation who didn't have to pay for university; whilst under the latest student loans regime the vast majority will never even pay off their loan in full because the interest outstrips the repayments. House prices relative to income have increased 5x in real terms since the same time a century ago, and 2.5x since 66 years ago (state pension age). Young people are spending proportionately more in accommodation costs, especially since the fall in council housing availability, compared to the current retirement generation, with student loans taken off their income, while pensioners receive above-inflation rises in their state income.

While I don't agree with @Egg Centric's wording as it frames it as a personal issue to yourself, it is a problem, and it's only going to increase the unfairness of inherited wealth.

/snip

As you ask, I'll respond to some of your other points. Usually I try to only make what I think is the most important point, in a couple of lines, for brevity - it is a forum - but I'll expand.

The state pension policy which gives above inflation increases was introduced because it was widely considered at the time to be derisory. Personally, when I started work I foresaw it would be impossible to survive on it; working on BR gave me a much better pension for which I paid 7 1/2 % of my salary. Personally, I planned my retirement on being able to live on my BR pension - retired before pensionable age - and, if you must know, I have been able to help pay off younger peoples' mortgages and, in another instance, pay off a considerable debt to avoid an imminent threat of bailiffs - all from my state pension. Other people I know have dome similarly - as far as mortgage settlement. As far as continuation of the triple lock - see above.

The comparison of house prices then and now is only of importance in the unlikely event of buying a house cash. For those of us who bought using a mortgage the interest rates we paid over time were never lower than 7 1/2 % and rose to 16 %. They're a lot lower now, A fairer comparison would be between the monthly mortgage payment payments then. Simplistically, house prices being 2 1/2 times higher now, and mortgage repayments 2 1/2 times higher then, might sort of balance out. It's also possible that lower interest rates themselves are a cause of higher house prices. Similarly, there was a limit on the ratio of earnings to mortgage 3 times then, plus 1/2 te salary of the spouse. These limits have been increased and this might also be a reason for house prices increasing - increase in money supply is, in simple terms, inflationary.

How are we old people 'holding people to ransom' by owning a house? What's the method?
 

styles

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I was part of the 95 1/2 % but then again I did a 5 year technical apprenticeship - how many of them are there now ? The industries that provided them have all gone.
I'm not sure what a 'technical apprenticeship' was back in the day, but apprenticeships generally are quite common in 2026. I've given references to a dozen or so teenagers who have gone on to do apprenticeships, partly because they don't see university as worth the money. I would actually quite like to do an apprenticeship in a practical profession - I've always found manual labour to feel quite "honest" and you finish the day having done something you can look back on and appreciate, whereas some days as a software engineer and architect I finish the day thinking well that was fun, but nothing actually got delivered, the value added isn't today, etc.
I am retired now thanks to private pensions (2 years away from state) but I have seen the workplace change a lot over the years to where it now seems to be a case of do as much as possible for as little as possible to maximise the profits (and hence share price), and nothing else matters. I spent 35 years working in IT and watched as a large IT department that did everything onsite gradually get outsourced and reduced intil just a handful were left managing the providers (who were often overseas). Back then you had a career, today that is mostly gone
Yeah, the idea of working for the same employer for 30+ years has long gone. Most employers don't really reward loyalty, so it's unsurprising.
 

Egg Centric

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Nothing you have listed in B) apples to me or the people of my age I know well. A sweeping ageist generalisation. An exception might be the 'triple lock' as I have voted for parties that included a promise to keep it in their manifesto, but if you can point out a party that wants to scrap it, I'll give them a whirl. I didn't see any at the last election,
Well, re: Triple Lock you have either Restore or the Greens to choose from. Two extremists. Cause of sensible centrist parties finding it impossible to drop due to the boomer vote.

As you ask, I'll respond to some of your other points. Usually I try to only make what I think is the most important point, in a couple of lines, for brevity - it is a forum - but I'll expand.

The state pension policy which gives above inflation increases was introduced because it was widely considered at the time to be derisory. Personally, when I started work I foresaw it would be impossible to survive on it; working on BR gave me a much better pension for which I paid 7 1/2 % of my salary. Personally, I planned my retirement on being able to live on my BR pension - retired before pensionable age - and, if you must know, I have been able to help pay off younger peoples' mortgages and, in another instance, pay off a considerable debt to avoid an imminent threat of bailiffs - all from my state pension. Other people I know have dome similarly - as far as mortgage settlement. As far as continuation of the triple lock - see above.

The comparison of house prices then and now is only of importance in the unlikely event of buying a house cash. For those of us who bought using a mortgage the interest rates we paid over time were never lower than 7 1/2 % and rose to 16 %. They're a lot lower now, A fairer comparison would be between the monthly mortgage payment payments then. Simplistically, house prices being 2 1/2 times higher now, and mortgage repayments 2 1/2 times higher then, might sort of balance out. It's also possible that lower interest rates themselves are a cause of higher house prices. Similarly, there was a limit on the ratio of earnings to mortgage 3 times then, plus 1/2 te salary of the spouse. These limits have been increased and this might also be a reason for house prices increasing - increase in money supply is, in simple terms, inflationary.

Interest rates were so high because of inflation, which is roughly correlated with wage growth, so irrelevant.

How are we old people 'holding people to ransom' by owning a house? What's the method?

I haven't said that. It's the anti house building policies (in the broadest sense) and focus of resources upon the narrow short term self interest of your generation that is the issue.

This should not be mistaken for a personal attack or blame session, btw. It's perfectly possible - and is indeed my view - for a generation to have collectively failed the next one while all - or approximately all - being individually nice people. If anything I tend to get on better with boomers than with a lot of millennials (my cohort) who can be insufferable offenderati (probably our generation's biggest failure).
 

Dave61

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The comparison of house prices then and now is only of importance in the unlikely event of buying a house cash. For those of us who bought using a mortgage the interest rates we paid over time were never lower than 7 1/2 % and rose to 16 %. They're a lot lower now, A fairer comparison would be between the monthly mortgage payment payments then. Simplistically, house prices being 2 1/2 times higher now, and mortgage repayments 2 1/2 times higher then, might sort of balance out. It's also possible that lower interest rates themselves are a cause of higher house prices. Similarly, there was a limit on the ratio of earnings to mortgage 3 times then, plus 1/2 te salary of the spouse. These limits have been increased and this might also be a reason for house prices increasing - increase in money supply is, in simple terms, inflationary.

How are we old people 'holding people to ransom' by owning a house? What's the method?
I well remember the 16% (was it black Tuesday or Thursday following the ERM exit?) where people were seriously looking at the upper floor windows, thankfully I was on a fixed term at the time.
Also our generator were the first to own property, may parents and before all rented, myself and my brother/sister all purchased - not for profit but somewhere to live.
I well remember when house inflation first hit in the late 1980's when I was gazumped out of my first house purchase when the MIRAS unmarried couples loophole was relaxed (along with a relaxation of the lending rules) causing an explosion in house prices. In my case a house went from 24k in march, gazumped and took off market but they kindly offered me first option in October - for £47k !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Yeah, the idea of working for the same employer for 30+ years has long gone. Most employers don't really reward loyalty, so it's unsurprising.
Just to clarify my 35 years in IT were with 2 employers (14 years and 23 years) jumping career part way through the first one as PC's first started entering the workplace in earnest and nobody knew how to look after them. And my daughter still thinks my 2nd job was a cushy number which was probably true post covid.
 
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styles

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As you ask, I'll respond to some of your other points. Usually I try to only make what I think is the most important point, in a couple of lines, for brevity - it is a forum - but I'll expand.
That's fair enough. I just felt that highlighting a few words in quite a long comment and responding to just those words was disingenuous. Maybe it wasn't intentional, but it felt it.
The state pension policy which gives above inflation increases was introduced because it was widely considered at the time to be derisory. Personally, when I started work I foresaw it would be impossible to survive on it; working on BR gave me a much better pension for which I paid 7 1/2 % of my salary.
Well this raises another point - such pensions simply don't exist in that form any more. The current retired generation are littered with people who benefitted from final salary defined benefit pensions, which have mostly been scrapped since, rightly so because they're just not economical or sustainable. That is not the fault of such pension recipients, but it is another factor which makes younger people feel hard done by. My old man has been a train driver for I think 48 years, and his pension is phenomenal. If I were to follow him into train driving today, my pension would be nowhere near the same. Nor would the staff travel benefits for that matter.
Personally, I planned my retirement on being able to live on my BR pension - retired before pensionable age - and, if you must know, I have been able to help pay off younger peoples' mortgages and, in another instance, pay off a considerable debt to avoid an imminent threat of bailiffs - all from my state pension. Other people I know have dome similarly - as far as mortgage settlement. As far as continuation of the triple lock - see above.
This comes back to what I've said about inherited wealth. You've clearly benefited from an incredibly generous pension scheme, retired early, and paid off the mortgages of some you know. While today, getting a mortgage is both more difficult and more expensive relative to income.
The comparison of house prices then and now is only of importance in the unlikely event of buying a house cash. For those of us who bought using a mortgage the interest rates we paid over time were never lower than 7 1/2 % and rose to 16 %. They're a lot lower now, A fairer comparison would be between the monthly mortgage payment payments then.
Well, as you wish - monthly mortgage premiums as a percentage of net household income have risen over 50% in the past 20 years.

If you couple this with the rise in rental payments relative to net income over the same period, you can see quite easily how home ownership has become so unaffordable.
Simplistically, house prices being 2 1/2 times higher now, and mortgage repayments 2 1/2 times higher then, might sort of balance out.
But they're not, so this is just a pipe dream.
It's also possible that lower interest rates themselves are a cause of higher house prices. Similarly, there was a limit on the ratio of earnings to mortgage 3 times then, plus 1/2 te salary of the spouse. These limits have been increased and this might also be a reason for house prices increasing - increase in money supply is, in simple terms, inflationary.
There is always an issue with unaffordable mortgages, but even with the more flexible approach we have now, many people are unable to afford a house because the prices are so high. It's all well and good accounting for an F1 doctor who a bank thinks will become a consultant in a decade or so but most people aren't in this situation and so while some 0-5% products are available, they're not offered to everybody. With current rent prices through the roof, saving for a deposit to buy a home is just out of reach for too many.
How are we old people 'holding people to ransom' by owning a house? What's the method?
Well, all of the above. It's not you personally, which is how I feel you're taking this, but government policy is rewarding pensioners with above-inflation pension rises while imposing even greater student loans on young people. There is also the squeezed middle, because thanks to Starmer's promise to freeze income tax bands until 2031, most working people will be taking real terms pay cuts thanks to paying more income tax, wiping out the even average below-inflation cost of living increases made to wages. Meanwhile, when the government suggested maybe means-testing the £200-£300 winter fuel payment for those aged 66+, all hell broke loose. Meanwhile, university tuition fees next year will be £10,050. People will graduate with £97k of student debt if they take out the full maintenance loans and tuition fee loans. That's ridiculous, and the disparity between that and the state pension rise clearly demonstrates how the older generation are benefiting far far greater than the younger generation at the moment, and have been for a couple of decades at least. It's fine to tax young people another £300 but the idea that means-testing older people for that same £300 results in revolt is what's wrong.
 

Bantamzen

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Well, all of the above. It's not you personally, which is how I feel you're taking this, but government policy is rewarding pensioners with above-inflation pension rises while imposing even greater student loans on young people. There is also the squeezed middle, because thanks to Starmer's promise to freeze income tax bands until 2031, most working people will be taking real terms pay cuts thanks to paying more income tax, wiping out the even average below-inflation cost of living increases made to wages. Meanwhile, when the government suggested maybe means-testing the £200-£300 winter fuel payment for those aged 66+, all hell broke loose. Meanwhile, university tuition fees next year will be £10,050. People will graduate with £97k of student debt if they take out the full maintenance loans and tuition fee loans. That's ridiculous, and the disparity between that and the state pension rise clearly demonstrates how the older generation are benefiting far far greater than the younger generation at the moment, and have been for a couple of decades at least. It's fine to tax young people another £300 but the idea that means-testing older people for that same £300 results in revolt is what's wrong.
Well perhaps it's time to rethink higher education. Does every young person really need to have a degree and rack up tens of thousands in order to get into work, often that doesn't necessarily make use of their specific subject? Maybe getting more young people into employment sooner, and earning for themselves as well as paying tax rather than racking up a job for a degree that they may not utilise fully or at all is a much better policy. It will certainly save them tens of thousands and hopefully feed their ambitions. I understand that Andy Burnham is keen on exploring alternatives that involve vocational training, as well as reshaping education to help hone young people's skills sooner. I'd certainly support such a move.

Of course this won't work in isolation, it will require governments to work with employer to reshape policies, develop new training programmes, and perhaps even offer financial support for employers as an incentive. And governments will have to find ways to encourage growth in the economy. But youth employment is becoming a serious problem again, and will start to impact government budgets if it's not tackled.
 

GusB

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It is the MINIMUM wage. It is not supposed to be that comfortable, it is supposed to be possible to live a very basic life on it. A room in a shared house (or a small rented one bed flat in a less desirable area if living as a couple, maybe a two up two down terrace if in one of the Northern cities where these are plentiful), basic but nutritious home cooked food, a bus pass, a budget mobile phone and the likes. Maybe a camping holiday in the UK once or twice a year. That's possible in most places bar London itself.
I'm not sure if it was your intention, but this comes across as incredibly patronising. A room in a shared house for a couple? Come on, it should be possible for someone working full time on minimum wage to be able to afford to have their own place, single or not. It should also be possible for them to do so without recourse to benefits to top up their income.

My grandparents lived in council houses and brought up kids on what we would call low-paid work. While they weren't well-off, they were comfortable enough to be able to eat well, take summer holidays and actually save a bit too. It wasn't a luxury lifestyle, but they weren't in poverty either. I don't expect anyone to be able to afford to eat in Michelin-starred restaurants on minimum wage, but nor should anyone be facing an empty cupboard at the end of the month.

The idea is that you start there and you progress, though obviously not absolutely everyone will.
Of course not everyone will progress, and not everyone wants to. Some people are just happy to do their jobs and come home to spend time with their families or partake in hobbies, etc. Not being ambitious isn't a crime and nor should it be seen as people being lazy or not trying hard enough. I don't think anyone expects to live in a palatial home as a result, but they shouldn't be condemned to a life of living paycheque to paycheque either.

Furthermore, if we do want lower-paid people to progress we should stop this nonsense where degrees are required for supervisory and entry-level management jobs. This isn't me having a pop at graduates, by the way; employers really need to be investing more in training their existing staff so that they have the skills to progress.
 

Merle Haggard

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That's fair enough. I just felt that highlighting a few words in quite a long comment and responding to just those words was disingenuous. Maybe it wasn't intentional, but it felt it.

Well this raises another point - such pensions simply don't exist in that form any more. The current retired generation are littered with people who benefitted from final salary defined benefit pensions, which have mostly been scrapped since, rightly so because they're just not economical or sustainable. That is not the fault of such pension recipients, but it is another factor which makes younger people feel hard done by. My old man has been a train driver for I think 48 years, and his pension is phenomenal. If I were to follow him into train driving today, my pension would be nowhere near the same. Nor would the staff travel benefits for that matter.

This comes back to what I've said about inherited wealth. You've clearly benefited from an incredibly generous pension scheme, retired early, and paid off the mortgages of some you know. While today, getting a mortgage is both more difficult and more expensive relative to income.

Well, as you wish - monthly mortgage premiums as a percentage of net household income have risen over 50% in the past 20 years.

If you couple this with the rise in rental payments relative to net income over the same period, you can see quite easily how home ownership has become so unaffordable.

But they're not, so this is just a pipe dream.

There is always an issue with unaffordable mortgages, but even with the more flexible approach we have now, many people are unable to afford a house because the prices are so high. It's all well and good accounting for an F1 doctor who a bank thinks will become a consultant in a decade or so but most people aren't in this situation and so while some 0-5% products are available, they're not offered to everybody. With current rent prices through the roof, saving for a deposit to buy a home is just out of reach for too many.

Well, all of the above. It's not you personally, which is how I feel you're taking this, but government policy is rewarding pensioners with above-inflation pension rises while imposing even greater student loans on young people. There is also the squeezed middle, because thanks to Starmer's promise to freeze income tax bands until 2031, most working people will be taking real terms pay cuts thanks to paying more income tax, wiping out the even average below-inflation cost of living increases made to wages. Meanwhile, when the government suggested maybe means-testing the £200-£300 winter fuel payment for those aged 66+, all hell broke loose. Meanwhile, university tuition fees next year will be £10,050. People will graduate with £97k of student debt if they take out the full maintenance loans and tuition fee loans. That's ridiculous, and the disparity between that and the state pension rise clearly demonstrates how the older generation are benefiting far far greater than the younger generation at the moment, and have been for a couple of decades at least. It's fine to tax young people another £300 but the idea that means-testing older people for that same £300 results in revolt is what's wrong.

The only observations I have to make concern final-salary pensions.
The BR was one, of course; and, on my first year of retirement that Fund had such a surplus that they distributed it. Pensioners received an increase and for those still working, the distribution was to the employer who had a 'holiday' from their side of the contributions. Then there seemed to be.no problem with the viability of the scheme.
As I posted earlier on this thread*, in his 1997 budget - very soon after coming into government - Chancellor Brown made an alteration to the taxation of 'private' pensions and this is seen by some as the reason for the demise of final salary pension funds. I am sent the annual (BR subsidiary) pension fund assessment of assets against actuarial future liabilities and generally the fund is reasonably healthy. So I'm not sure why final salary schemes are dying, and I think (not sure) that the employer, in the case of EWS/DBS/DBC has ceased making contributions. That's not denying that their unavailability is a problem, but some blame must be attached to the 1997 Labour government (for whom I voted .. ).

//

The 1997 change is not the only one that affects those who wish to safeguard their own future by their own actions.Something that affects me is Capital Gains Tax. You may think that this affects only 'the rich' and therefore they deserve all they get. However ...

To provide a further cushion in the case of redundancy or retirement I invested some of my (taxed) income in Unit Trusts over a period. As an example, in the case of having an investment of £3000 1997, inflation since then has been about 100%. So it follows that an investment of £3000 then, if it only equalled inflation, would be worth £6000 now, a capital gain of £3000. Recent changes by, I think, the Labour Government mean that any gain over £3000 is taxable, so an investment (from taxable income) of more than £3000 in 1997 would result in taxation if cashed even though it's only matching the value in real terms of the original investment. And having £6000 of savings doesn't make me 'rich' imo, and an acceptable target.

I detect a government policy of disincentivising both saving and having a company pension. Seems strange, but possibly the government's aim is for people to spend not save to keep the economy expanding. Not sure that's necessarily great for the UK economy if it's spent on imports, though.


*post 36, but I don't know how to provide a link.
 

Krokodil

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What lack of freedom? Having done both we massively prefer it with me being the only earner
A dependant partner who has not been in work for a decade will find it harder to leave an abusive relationship.

I did a computer science degree on a Plan 1 student loan and am close to paying it off now, but with the current student loans system, I wouldn't study in the UK if I were 18 again today. I'd be seriously considering moving to mainland Europe.
Good luck with that post-Brexit.

in those days, 95 1/2 % of school leavers did NOT go to university
And most jobs didn't require a degree back then.

How are we old people 'holding people to ransom' by owning a house? What's the method?
I thimk that the bigger issue is that high stamp duty rates are discouraging empty nesters from downsizing.
 

Egg Centric

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A dependant partner who has not been in work for a decade will find it harder to leave an abusive relationship.

And this is a good enough reason to create a society where two person households need both to work (with the resulting implication that single person households need to earn a better wage to do as well given the economies of scale of the former)? While a bit of a digression, a dependant *wife*/*husband* who's been out of work for a decade will (unless the spouse is super abusive and got some way out of this but we can't base public policy on the most awful people, they need to be dealt with in other ways) be able to take the other one to the cleaners in that kind of scenario. A dependant partner? Absolutely. But this is one of the points of marriage, to formalise a relationship and protect both parties to an extent (someone can also, if they don't believe in marriage or e.g. it's a platonic relationship with their sister or something, achieve this in other ways - marriage is just simpler in that it does all this for them but anything where someone is giving up work to support a household with the other person it's clearly common sense that there is a backup plan).

high stamp duty rates are discouraging empty nesters from downsizing.

Oh absolutely. Stamp duty is another bloody ridiculous thing. Stark raving bonkers. Housing is naturally illiquid just cause moving is such a faff, to add disincentives to move on top is lunacy. What we need instead is incentives to downsize like property/land tax (but not property tax as done in the USA based on last sale price which is also a lunatic disincentive to moving)
 
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Krokodil

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And this is a good enough reason to create a society where two person households need both to work
If you died tomorrow, how would your wife continue to survive? What if you became unable to work through illness or injury? How long could she last on the payouts from any insurance policies you may have?

If a couple really wants to have someone stay home each day, it's safer that they share this by both dropping hours. When a person (let's face it, usually a woman) drops out of a career to raise a family, it's very difficult to return later.

(with the resulting implication that single person households need to earn a better wage to do as well given the economies of scale of the former)?
I'm all in favour of stricter controls to ensure that absent fathers do not duck their financial responsibilities to the children they procreate. That should help single parents. Singletons without kids are in a better financial position than those with dependants.
 

Cdd89

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Re mental health, it's probably a controversial/antithetical thought, but I sometimes wonder whether we could cut the marginal cost of providing mental health support by offshoring a lot of the treatment to telehealth providers based internationally.

My objective in suggesting this is offering far more proactive and accessible mental health treatment than we could otherwise afford. Also reducing waiting lists and thresholds for such treatment which are part of why mental health issues get so bad in the first place.
 

andrewgs

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I think the proportion of people going on holiday or owning the latest technology would disagree. There are of course people struggling, there always has been. But relative poverty has dropped over the past 30 years, with child poverty rates dropping the greatest in the past decade. There's always more work to do, but the idea that this needs to come at the expense of shelving the abolition of the personal allowance tapering (which may even be reducing tax receipts) is wild.
Relative poverty is defined as 60% of the median national household disposable income. It cannot drop in the way you describe.

Child poverty rates have not dropped in the last decade.
1787386702391.png
Chart shows relative child poverty rates after deducting housing costs hovering around 30%. https://ifs.org.uk/living-standards-poverty-and-inequality-uk

Reducing child poverty leading to better life outcomes and so higher tax revenues. This is one of the few things economists agree on so it's tragic how high child poverty rates are.
 

Merle Haggard

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And most jobs didn't require a degree back then.

Thanks
But I'm not sure whether requiring a degree now is the parameter for choosing the most suitable candidate or whether it's required to competently carry out the duties of the job.
Back in my day to call yourself a mechanical engineer required a degree in mechanical engineering; 'vocational'.
But the son of someone I know recently applied for a Senior Conductor job and was told that candidates had to have a degree. As there's obviously not a degree in 'Senior conductoring' that implies it's a proxy for general aptitude. Rather like the requirement of GCE passes back in my day.
It's probably the case that the proportion of people entering the job market 60 years ago that had reasonable GCE passes is similar to that nowadays with degrees. But I don't think that there's been a similar increase in level of intelligence, only in level of qualification.

As an aside, during my career on the railways I worked with people who had left school at 16 with no qualifications and who were quick thinkers and excellent problem-solvers. BR of old seemed to be good at spotting talent without regard to paper qualifications.
 

simonw

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The only observations I have to make concern final-salary pensions.
The BR was one, of course; and, on my first year of retirement that Fund had such a surplus that they distributed it. Pensioners received an increase and for those still working, the distribution was to the employer who had a 'holiday' from their side of the contributions. Then there seemed to be.no problem with the viability of the scheme.
As I posted earlier on this thread*, in his 1997 budget - very soon after coming into government - Chancellor Brown made an alteration to the taxation of 'private' pensions and this is seen by some as the reason for the demise of final salary pension funds. I am sent the annual (BR subsidiary) pension fund assessment of assets against actuarial future liabilities and generally the fund is reasonably healthy. So I'm not sure why final salary schemes are dying, and I think (not sure) that the employer, in the case of EWS/DBS/DBC has ceased making contributions. That's not denying that their unavailability is a problem, but some blame must be attached to the 1997 Labour government (for whom I voted .. ).

//

The 1997 change is not the only one that affects those who wish to safeguard their own future by their own actions.Something that affects me is Capital Gains Tax. You may think that this affects only 'the rich' and therefore they deserve all they get. However ...

To provide a further cushion in the case of redundancy or retirement I invested some of my (taxed) income in Unit Trusts over a period. As an example, in the case of having an investment of £3000 1997, inflation since then has been about 100%. So it follows that an investment of £3000 then, if it only equalled inflation, would be worth £6000 now, a capital gain of £3000. Recent changes by, I think, the Labour Government mean that any gain over £3000 is taxable, so an investment (from taxable income) of more than £3000 in 1997 would result in taxation if cashed even though it's only matching the value in real terms of the original investment. And having £6000 of savings doesn't make me 'rich' imo, and an acceptable target.

I detect a government policy of disincentivising both saving and having a company pension. Seems strange, but possibly the government's aim is for people to spend not save to keep the economy expanding. Not sure that's necessarily great for the UK economy if it's spent on imports, though.


*post 36, but I don't know how to provide a link.
Defined benefit pensions are dying out in part due to the actions of Brown but also because they pass most of not all of the risk of under performance on to the employer. With defined contribution pensions, the risk is with the employees.

Someone who took out a unit trust back in 1997 has had plenty of time to transfer it into an IS A and thus limit their exposure to capital gains.

Investors in property have had fewer options to limit their exposure to capital gains.
 

Merle Haggard

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/snip

Someone who took out a unit trust back in 1997 has had plenty of time to transfer it into an IS A and thus limit their exposure to capital gains.

/snip

At the time - and I accept that things may have changed now - you couldn't transfer a unit trust of your choice into an ISA. Units trust were either ISA or not.
I did indeed put some of money in an ISA unit trust - run by HSBC if it matters - and the return was less (and obviously riskier) than in a building society account.
It seemed to be a general problem with ISA unit trusts - the perceived benefit was 'you don't pay tax!!!', as if that fact alone made it a better investment.

As I've mentioned upthread, same with ISA cash accounts. You couldn't open a deposit account in the highest interest rate option available and put it in an ISA, you had to choose a cash ISA one, which always had a lower rate of return.

It was also the case in 1997 - and until very recently - that the capital gains tax threshold was £7,000 (??? £9,000) per annum compared to the current £3,000 but, more critically, it allowed for indexation - you were only taxed if the gain you made was more than £7,000 in real terms (i.e., allowing for inflation). A big change in legislation that went through without publicity.
 

JamesT

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At the time - and I accept that things may have changed now - you couldn't transfer a unit trust of your choice into an ISA. Units trust were either ISA or not.
I did indeed put some of money in an ISA unit trust - run by HSBC if it matters - and the return was less (and obviously riskier) than in a building society account.
It seemed to be a general problem with ISA unit trusts - the perceived benefit was 'you don't pay tax!!!', as if that fact alone made it a better investment.

As I've mentioned upthread, same with ISA cash accounts. You couldn't open a deposit account in the highest interest rate option available and put it in an ISA, you had to choose a cash ISA one, which always had a lower rate of return.

It was also the case in 1997 - and until very recently - that the capital gains tax threshold was £7,000 (??? £9,000) per annum compared to the current £3,000 but, more critically, it allowed for indexation - you were only taxed if the gain you made was more than £7,000 in real terms (i.e., allowing for inflation). A big change in legislation that went through without publicity.
Indexation of capital gains for individuals was abolished in 1998. There was a transitional taper relief until 2008.
The trade off being that the CGT rate dropped from being around income tax rates to half that. Which is something that those campaigning for CGT to be aligned with income tax rates seem to ignore.
The tax-free allowance for CGT had crept up to £12,300, before Hunt dropped it to £6000 in 2023/24 and then Reeves dropped it to £3000.
 

Merle Haggard

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Indexation of capital gains for individuals was abolished in 1998. There was a transitional taper relief until 2008.
The trade off being that the CGT rate dropped from being around income tax rates to half that. Which is something that those campaigning for CGT to be aligned with income tax rates seem to ignore.
The tax-free allowance for CGT had crept up to £12,300, before Hunt dropped it to £6000 in 2023/24 and then Reeves dropped it to £3000.

Thank you for that.

I really should read the small print in budgets.

In summary, chancellor Brown savaged final salary pension funds and removed indexation. Chancellors Hunt and Reeves in turn reduced the allowance considerably. Hey ho.
 

Harpo

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As there's obviously not a degree in 'Senior conductoring' that implies it's a proxy for general aptitude. Rather like the requirement of GCE passes back in my day.
A pet hate of mine as a recruiting manager 20+ years ago was ‘educated to degree level’ in a person spec.

I know from the many promotion hoops that I jumped through that there were numerical and verbal reasoning tests that provided sufficient stretch and assessment to match the lazy ‘degree level’ barrier that was usually set by others with degrees in a self-reinforcing clique, much like the geography degree needed to teach geography to the next batch of potential geography graduates who…….
 

Merle Haggard

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A pet hate of mine as a recruiting manager 20+ years ago was ‘educated to degree level’ in a person spec.

I know from the many promotion hoops that I jumped through that there were numerical and verbal reasoning tests that provided sufficient stretch and assessment to match the lazy ‘degree level’ barrier that was usually set by others with degrees in a self-reinforcing clique, much like the geography degree needed to teach geography to the next batch of potential geography graduates who…….

If I may be allowed to be very flippant; one of my one-time colleagues had a double degree - geography and a religion-based one (can't remember the exact details)

Highly suitable for Crusades but not much use in the modern world :)
 

Yew

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Re mental health, it's probably a controversial/antithetical thought, but I sometimes wonder whether we could cut the marginal cost of providing mental health support by offshoring a lot of the treatment to telehealth providers based internationally.
If there is one things that is detrimental to my mental health, dealing with off shore call centers is it.
 

simonw

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At the time - and I accept that things may have changed now - you couldn't transfer a unit trust of your choice into an ISA. Units trust were either ISA or not.
I did indeed put some of money in an ISA unit trust - run by HSBC if it matters - and the return was less (and obviously riskier) than in a building society account.
It seemed to be a general problem with ISA unit trusts - the perceived benefit was 'you don't pay tax!!!', as if that fact alone made it a better investment.

As I've mentioned upthread, same with ISA cash accounts. You couldn't open a deposit account in the highest interest rate option available and put it in an ISA, you had to choose a cash ISA one, which always had a lower rate of return.

It was also the case in 1997 - and until very recently - that the capital gains tax threshold was £7,000 (??? £9,000) per annum compared to the current £3,000 but, more critically, it allowed for indexation - you were only taxed if the gain you made was more than £7,000 in real terms (i.e., allowing for inflation). A big change in legislation that went through without publicity.
Well its up to the individual to do their due diligence on whether a unit trust inside an isa is likely to perform better or worse than the one outside. In the past 29 years, you could have switched.

Yes interest gross interest rates can be higher outside a cash isa, but then whether they represent a better home for your money depends on part in your marginal tax rate.
 

styles

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In summary, chancellor Brown savaged final salary pension funds and removed indexation. Chancellors Hunt and Reeves in turn reduced the allowance considerably. Hey ho.
Final salary pension funds have always been unsustainable. Obviously for the retiring employee they're amazing, but they're so amazing precisely because they're absurd.

I'm actually of the opinion that all defined benefit pensions are unreasonable and have been based on poor predictions of longevity and a particular confidence in the stock markets. I know the unions will fight against any removal of them because they're insanely generous. But younger people joining the workforce are the ones who are having to put in extra to pay out these gold-plated policies of people who entered the game 50 years ago. It's another example of the younger generation propping up an older generation who got free university tuition and houses at half the salary multiplier as is now required.

For what it's worth, I say this as somebody who has a final salary DB pension scheme (albeit a small one).
 

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