Merseyrail 777 introduction

[bahnause]

My guess is that the Door Pre-Arm feature was originally written to interact with an Automatic Door Operation system (that uses balises to tell the train which side to release the doors on at each station). If the customer did not want to pay for ADO and manual door operation was required, it was not written to take into account that human error may occasionally result in the driver releasing the doors on the wrong side.

The original Pre-Arm feature represents the standard solution for a lot of trains in Europe. It probably was not designed specifically for the 777. It was first introduced in Switzerland at around 1990 and is seen as a comfort function.

 

[Prime586]

The original Pre-Arm feature represents the standard solution for a lot of trains in Europe. It probably was not designed specifically for the 777. It was first introduced in Switzerland at around 1990 and is seen as a comfort function.

I am well aware it was a pre-existing feature - if it's anything like the software builds produced in my day job, the various optional features in the software library are either compiled in at build time or enabled/disabled at runtime by a configuration file for each destination hardware platform and customer.

The question that follows on from that is how are wrong-side door openings mitigated against in Stadler's rolling stock in Switzerland, for example? Do they use ADO/CSDE and so there's no risk of human error releasing the doors on the wrong side, or if manual door release is used, do they just expect drivers to never release the doors on the wrong side? Given it happened on both variants of the METRO platform supplied to the UK (which both use manual door release) it seems like there is definitely something different in the door release procedures used in the UK that exposed this issue with the Pre-Arm feature.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

I am well aware it was a pre-existing feature - if it's anything like the software builds produced in my day job, the various optional features in the software library are either compiled in at build time or enabled/disabled at runtime by a configuration file for each destination hardware platform and customer.

The question that follows on from that is how are wrong-side door openings mitigated against in Stadler's rolling stock in Switzerland, for example?

Equally, how does it work on the Manchester Metrolink? Pre-arm is enabled there, and very useful it is too.

 

[jamesst]

It was a bit of a mess around 15:00 this afternoon. Indicators on the platforms @ Moorfields (Northern Line) were only showing Southport services northbound, and Hunts Cross services southbound!

Cue an Ormskirk service rolling in to confuse all concerned!

Not sure the information displayed at Sandhills was much better either.

It is really that difficult to amend the platform displays to reflect the amended service pattern?

The amended schedule was loaded for Thursday to Sunday and was working fine.
However it was wiped when it was thought the strikes were happening with the strike timetable loaded instead.
The problem being when the strikes were then cancelled instead it proved very difficult to reload the amended schedule at short notice.

 

[bahnause]

The question that follows on from that is how are wrong-side door openings mitigated against in Stadler's rolling stock in Switzerland, for example? Do they use ADO/CSDE and so there's no risk of human error releasing the doors on the wrong side, or if manual door release is used, do they just expect drivers to never release the doors on the wrong side? Given it happened on both variants of the METRO platform supplied to the UK (which both use manual door release) it seems like there is definitely something different in the door release procedures used in the UK that exposed this issue with the Pre-Arm feature.

The risk falls into the „acceptable“ category in the risk assessment. Depending on the rolling stock, the driver can release the doors at speeds under 45 or 60km/h. The doors can be opened (will open if a open command is saved), as soon the train comes to a stop / almost stop. There is some older stock around, where the driver has to bring the train to a stop before releasing the doors. It would work at higher speeds, but it isn’t deemed safe enough as there is only one speed signal on these type of trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The original Pre-Arm feature represents the standard solution for a lot of trains in Europe. It probably was not designed specifically for the 777. It was first introduced in Switzerland at around 1990 and is seen as a comfort function.

It is also used for request stops on lines with those, if I recall. Pre selecting a door also requests a stop.

 

[777142]

Looks like there are engineering works planned on the Hunts Cross branch in October and November (buses are showing on RTT between Moorfields and Hunts Cross from 12/10 to 6/11, SuX). Any idea if this is going to help with getting the 8-car services working?

 

[Djgr]

Looks like there are engineering works planned on the Hunts Cross branch in October and November (buses are showing on RTT between Moorfields and Hunts Cross from 12/10 to 6/11, SuX). Any idea if this is going to help with getting the 8-car services working?

There is a view that this is to do with Liverpool Baltic station.

 

[MR-507508]

There is a view that this is to do with Liverpool Baltic station.

Liverpool Baltic Station construction - speculation

Creating this alongside the other thread to discuss the proposed service during construction and other speculation surrounding this, so the main thread can be kept to what is happening rather than what should be. A year is a long time for an entire "metro" line to be "bustituted". (Hopefully...

www.railforums.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2026 ==

Looks like there are engineering works planned on the Hunts Cross branch in October and November (buses are showing on RTT between Moorfields and Hunts Cross from 12/10 to 6/11, SuX). Any idea if this is going to help with getting the 8-car services working?

It is being reported elsewhere, this period of closure of the line is due to tunnel repairs and signalling works. However, a prolonged period of closure is likely to be expected for this line once the construction of Liverpool Baltic gets underway, whenever that will be.......

 

[M28361M]

It's gone very quiet on the subject of 8-car trains on the Hunts Cross line. But tonight I saw an 8-car test train stop at Aigburth at around 2130.

Curiously, although it was running in the usual test paths 5T60 and 5T61, there was no tracking at all on RTT - train was showing as "not activated". I only knew it was running because I happened to glance at the Open Train Times signalling map and saw 5T60 moving towards Hunts Cross. I'm aware there are issues at the moment between Hunts Cross and Liverpool Central with trains not tracking correctly, but I would have thought it would still show up between Kirkdale and Central at least.

 

[777142]

There were a couple of random extra services on 21/6 which ran as 8-cars (025+026) between St Michaels and Hunts Cross/Liverpool Central/Sandhills in passenger service, although the annoucements said it wasn't stopping at Cressington. I had to bail from the first of these services at Aigburth so I don't know if it actually stopped or not (I certainly don't trust Merseyrail PIS!). Looks like they're doing a similar thing based at AIG using the same paths this Saturday (8/8), and they're not showing as stop unadvertised at Cressington like I think they did last time. Also doing this on 15/8 based at STM but it does show unadvertised for them. I'll be checking out the Aigburth services on Saturday since I'm unexpectedly going to be back home then, will report back afterwards.
5T70/80/82 have been out quite a bit the last few days and they normally run as 8 cars, so maybe they will actually do the SDO in passenger operation this time.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

stop unadvertised at Cressington like I think they did last time

The ones on 21/06/2026 were unadvertised at Cressington and RTT tells me they did not stop.

 

[777142]

I'll be checking out the Aigburth services on Saturday, will report back afterwards.

Well then,
I found out that the extra services tonight were actually nothing to do with 8-car introduction, and instead were there to supplement 2tph each way from Aigburth for the attendees of a nearby concert. No matter, it was still a rare service pattern so I went to do it anyway.

By all accounts it looked like it would be just a 4-car: given it was timetabled to stop at Cressington the staff seemed sure it would be 4 cars, and when I got to Aigburth the screens still said it was calling at Cressington. So you can imagine my surprise when an 8-car rolled in, with no indication of ”Limited Stop” on the train screens, like it said on the St Michaels starters from a few weeks ago. Maybe they actually fixed the SDO?

Unfortunately not. The guard came on the annoucements to say we weren’t stopping at Cressington within seconds of us, well, not stopping at Cressington. When we got to South Parkway the guard assured me I could stay on the train back through to Aigburth (via a reversal at Hunts Cross), even though the train was booked empty back to Aigburth, since I had no chance of making the Up train at South Parkway, but alas, the driver said no when we got to Hunts Cross. At least it was only 15 minutes extra wait for the next actual train.

None of this to say I don’t understand why I couldn’t stay on at Hunts Cross - I completely appreciate that there are important restrictions on empty services. What I don’t understand is why the service was booked empty in the first place, nor why the passenger ones were booked to stop at Cressington (including on the screens at Cressington, but luckily I didn’t see anyone waiting for it).

The train I ended up on back to Aigburth was already getting busy by the time we got there, given the 30-minute wait for a service from South Parkway, and the queues were of course out the station and down the road at Aigburth. Hopefully everyone made it on a train before the end of the service day.

There also seems to be an unrelated issue with Ormskirk-bound trains showing as delayed until they arrive at the moment, which certainly didn’t help the matter.

Overall, just another mess onto the list for the 777 introduction. Fingers crossed this doesn’t happen again, especially not so late at night.

 

[507 001]

it seems like there is definitely something different in the door release procedures used in the UK that exposed this issue with the Pre-Arm feature.

Equally, how does it work on the Manchester Metrolink? Pre-arm is enabled there, and very useful it is too.

It seems like an incredibly overcomplicated system (as with a lot of things 777 related).

On an M5000 preselecting a door simply requests that individual door. The only way a door would open during a wrong side door release is if someone has requested that door. It has happened in the past, although vanishingly infrequently and it’s usually because someone has accidentally requested the door during busy periods by pressing the button with their bum.

 

[Polarbear]

There also seems to be an unrelated issue with Ormskirk-bound trains showing as delayed until they arrive at the moment, which certainly didn’t help the matter.

This has been a recurring problem for a few weeks now, at several stations on the Northern Line. Not sure why it’s taking so long to fix?

 

[MR-507508]

Well then,
I found out that the extra services tonight were actually nothing to do with 8-car introduction, and instead were there to supplement 2tph each way from Aigburth for the attendees of a nearby concert. No matter, it was still a rare service pattern so I went to do it anyway.

By all accounts it looked like it would be just a 4-car: given it was timetabled to stop at Cressington the staff seemed sure it would be 4 cars, and when I got to Aigburth the screens still said it was calling at Cressington. So you can imagine my surprise when an 8-car rolled in, with no indication of ”Limited Stop” on the train screens, like it said on the St Michaels starters from a few weeks ago. Maybe they actually fixed the SDO?

Unfortunately not. The guard came on the annoucements to say we weren’t stopping at Cressington within seconds of us, well, not stopping at Cressington. When we got to South Parkway the guard assured me I could stay on the train back through to Aigburth (via a reversal at Hunts Cross), even though the train was booked empty back to Aigburth, since I had no chance of making the Up train at South Parkway, but alas, the driver said no when we got to Hunts Cross. At least it was only 15 minutes extra wait for the next actual train.

None of this to say I don’t understand why I couldn’t stay on at Hunts Cross - I completely appreciate that there are important restrictions on empty services. What I don’t understand is why the service was booked empty in the first place, nor why the passenger ones were booked to stop at Cressington (including on the screens at Cressington, but luckily I didn’t see anyone waiting for it).

The train I ended up on back to Aigburth was already getting busy by the time we got there, given the 30-minute wait for a service from South Parkway, and the queues were of course out the station and down the road at Aigburth. Hopefully everyone made it on a train before the end of the service day.

There also seems to be an unrelated issue with Ormskirk-bound trains showing as delayed until they arrive at the moment, which certainly didn’t help the matter.

Overall, just another mess onto the list for the 777 introduction. Fingers crossed this doesn’t happen again, especially not so late at night.

Thanks for providing an update on the additional services last night.

Any idea on the unit numbers of the 8 car?

Appears to be some additional services next Saturday on this line.

 

[777142]

Any idea on the unit numbers of the 8 car?

I forgot to explicitly check, sorry. I got half a video of it pulling into Aigburth and 005 was definitely on the front (seeing the 8-car threw me off my game, admittedly), but I don't know what was on the other end. Looks like it had been working with 010 on Southport services but went empty from Southport back towards depot about 4pm yesterday afternoon, so I'd bet on that, I guess.

Appears to be some additional services next Saturday on this line.

Next week they're doing the St Michaels starters again on the same schedule as in June, as you said. That probably will be an 8-car since it is timetabled not to stop at Cressington. Some of the normal Hunts Cross trains are running PIS as if they are 8-car services, and a couple of times there have been automated annoucements saying one or two of the rear doors won't open at Aigburth and St Michaels. How that worked out last night I don't know.

[Ormskirk-bound trains showing as delayed] has been a recurring problem for a few weeks now, at several stations on the Northern Line. Not sure why it’s taking so long to fix?

As for the delays, it seems that the Ormskirk-bound services are reporting under the previous headcode as far as Liverpool Central, so all the Ormskirk-bound trains show as just "delayed" until they get to LVC. At least there are annoucements at the stations that the delays may be erroneous (yep, the bar is on the floor). I was at Sandhills last night off the second train which terminates there (2D59) and no Ormskirk-bound train was showing up since the "delayed" 21:03 fell off the list of next 3 services. Staff member on platform thought the 21:09 Southport train was actually for Ormskirk, not realising Southport is still 4tph at that time. Not a good look when I knew more than the staff. Fingers crossed they'll sort this out sooner rather than later.

 

[M28361M]

If RTT is to be believed, there is an 8-car formation out between Ormskirk and Hunts Cross today. 0621 OMS-HNX, 0721 HNX-OMS and then pattern repeating every two hours until the 1921 Hunts Cross-Sandhills, then empty to Kirkdale depot. Formed 777016+777053

 

[MR-507508]

If RTT is to be believed, there is an 8-car formation out between Ormskirk and Hunts Cross today. 0621 OMS-HNX, 0721 HNX-OMS and then pattern repeating every two hours until the 1921 Hunts Cross-Sandhills, then empty to Kirkdale depot. Formed 777016+777053

That is correct. 777016 & 053 with SDO in action. Announcements very clear on board regarding the door situation. Although seems to be having issues with losing time with some semi-fast running towards Ormskirk today. 12 mins late earlier this afternoon resulting in non-stop Walton to Ormskirk.
Hopefully it can last longer than a few days as was the case at the start of June.

 

[urbophile]

That is correct. 777016 & 053 with SDO in action. Announcements very clear on board regarding the door situation. Although seems to be having issues with losing time with some semi-fast running towards Ormskirk today. 12 mins late earlier this afternoon resulting in non-stop Walton to Ormskirk.
Hopefully it can last longer than a few days as was the case at the start of June.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2026 ==

Sorry I was going to ask, did the annoouncements say 'not stopping at Cressington', and then realised you had said SDO was in action. I couldn't work out how to delete the quote.

 

[karlbbb]

If RTT is to be believed, there is an 8-car formation out between Ormskirk and Hunts Cross today. 0621 OMS-HNX, 0721 HNX-OMS and then pattern repeating every two hours until the 1921 Hunts Cross-Sandhills, then empty to Kirkdale depot. Formed 777016+777053

Looks like it's out again today, though made up of 777039+777041.

 

[MR-507508]

Looks like it's out again today, though made up of 777039+777041.

I can confirm this was the case. Seemed to be better at keeping to time today, in comparison to last Friday.

 

[M28361M]

No 8 cars out on Ormskirk-Hunts Cross since Wednesday, and none out today despite Everton playing at home. Not even any “Cressington skippers”. Which suggests they are still having problems with the SDO.

 

[MR-507508]

No 8 cars out on Ormskirk-Hunts Cross since Wednesday, and none out today despite Everton playing at home. Not even any “Cressington skippers”. Which suggests they are still having problems with the SDO.

According to RTT, 777026 & 029 have operated today as an 8 car on the Ormskirk to Hunts Cross line, with SDO in operation i.e. calling at Cressington.
The 8 car was pulled from service on 2O15 earlier this morning due to a fault which required attention on the depot and was replaced by 777140.

Interestingly, 2O15 terminated at Sandhills, with 140 starting at Walton operating 2O15. Quite a nice way to replace a unit on this line, with minimal disruption (only 1 cancellation at Kirkdale).

I think there may have been a bit of unit shortage in recent days, there has been a number of faults over the past few days. Also priority is probably given to the Southport line in recent days due to the Southport flower show, which includes the £2.00 travel on this line this weekend.

Time will tell next week I guess, in regards to 8 car on Ormskirk to Hunts Cross.

 

[Liverpool 507]

777007 & 777017 have just been involved in a fatality, so any spare units today will be prioritised for Southport with the flower show and weather.

 

[142 007]

There was a failure of 777031 at Bebington this afternoon causing disruption between Rock Ferry and Hooton, with no replacement bus available

 

[MR-507508]

There was a failure of 777031 at Bebington this afternoon causing disruption between Rock Ferry and Hooton, with no replacement bus available

777002, the train behind 777031, had to assist in helping to get 031 on the move again from Bebington. This resulted in an 8 car ECS move back to Birkenhead North E.M.U.D, with a reversal at Hooton and running around the loop as it made its way to North depot.

 

[Sam 76]

777007 & 777017 have just been involved in a fatality, so any spare units today will be prioritised for Southport with the flower show and weather.

Another 777 involved in a sad incident earlier in the week as well. So I can imagine they are a little short on the ground presently

 

[MR-507508]

Another 777 involved in a sad incident earlier in the week as well. So I can imagine they are a little short on the ground presently

If it is the incident on Wednesday evening at St Michaels you are referring to, this was 777035 which was involved. Was back out the next day, working as an ECS to Southport and then in service from Friday. I think this incident was trespass, not sure whether anyone was actually struck by the train.

 

[MrBeanie]

Saw an 8 car working with 777026 and 777029 at moorfields going into liverpool central and then back out this afternoon. Is this going to be a regular thing, or is it just the odd one.