Banking trains in the UK

[ac6000cw]

The photographer and I met up two weeks after that day's shot. He was showing me his photos and assured me all three GMs were on the power (albeit mid-train was not at "notch 8").

Thanks - my earlier post now edited.

 

[dmncf]

The drivers come to a clear understanding prior to departure as to what is needed, and the nature of needing a banker means the rear loco should be consistently applying power, especially as it should not lose contact during the move. There are also special or local instructions published, either in particular notices or the sectional appendix, for how to bank at locations where it happens often or is particularly awkward.

It's also possible that if there are concerns about safely being able to assist, changes can be required by NR or TOC operations. When a bridge was struck just outside Victoria some years ago, it meant that certain lines were banned to loco haulage and therefore charters would be crossing over a lot more S&C during the move. Because of the greater risk of the loco losing contact, permission to bank the train uncoupled was suspended/not given and assistance on the rear was required to be coupled. For the charters this usually meant just keeping the diesel on the back, although a couple may have added a stop at a suitable location further on to uncouple the loco.

How does the banking locomotive driver know if the leading locomotive driver is unexpectedly braking (e.g. due to a yellow signal or seeing an obstruction on the track) and hence banking should stop, particularly if radio communication has been unexpectedly lost?

 

[Richard Scott]

How does the banking locomotive driver know if the leading locomotive driver is unexpectedly braking (e.g. due to a yellow signal or seeing an obstruction on the track) and hence banking should stop, particularly if radio communication has been unexpectedly lost?

Probably when the train starts to slow down?! Assume on the Lickey were given green lights to at least the top?
Would imagine could be awkward if train started to slow, probably have to rely on the train stopping assisting loco as wouldn't want to apply loco brakes incase it dropped back and then slammed into the train?

 

[andyjhatton]

How does the banking locomotive driver know if the leading locomotive driver is unexpectedly braking (e.g. due to a yellow signal or seeing an obstruction on the track) and hence banking should stop, particularly if radio communication has been unexpectedly lost?

In days of old it was a whistle code.

 

[zwk500]

How does the banking locomotive driver know if the leading locomotive driver is unexpectedly braking (e.g. due to a yellow signal or seeing an obstruction on the track) and hence banking should stop, particularly if radio communication has been unexpectedly lost?

That's a bit beyond my knowledge, but I would guess that they would communicate however they agreed when they discussed the movement prior to setting off, which can include using the GSM-R or back-to-back radios during the movement.

From the rulebook:

DRIVER: You must reach a clear understanding with the driver of the assisting locomotive about how the movement is to be started, stopped and controlled. You can use GSM-R radio for this purpose at any time during the movement.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Cowlairs bankers were couple to the train. I certainly remember the D6100s used had two coupling chains and one specially shaped banking one, was lifted by a chain arrangement into the cab. Their predecessors - ex NB 0-6-2Ts and the V1/V3s had a similar arrangement, from photos.
I don't remember seeing this system at any other bank; I wonder why it was applied there.

On a quick thread search, Euston doesn't seem to have been mentioned but the loco that brought in the empty stock there usually gave a'shove' to the departing train.

 

[EveningStar]

Probably when the train starts to slow down?! Assume on the Lickey were given green lights to at least the top?
Would imagine could be awkward if train started to slow, probably have to rely on the train stopping assisting loco as wouldn't want to apply loco brakes incase it dropped back and then slammed into the train?

Back in the days of 37's on the Lickey, by the time the banked train got RA, there was always a green light, which takes one to Blackwell even if with a restrictive aspect at Pikes Pool. Never saw anything different, although it would be a nightmare for the banker crew if the train needed stopping as forward visibility was a tad restricted, especially if banking a passenger train. DMUs being banked out of the platform relied upon old-fashioned 'crows' on the horn, and again by the time everybody was ready to depart the chances are it was clear to Blackwell.

The accident at Beattock on 18 May 1969 (https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Beattock1969.pdf) is a sad example of what can go suddenly and dangerously wrong when banking uncoupled.

 

[The exile]

Cowlairs bankers were couple to the train.

Don’t think they were in later years when it was a case of the train engine that had brought the previous working in giving the departing train a push en route to Eastfield.

 

[Thames99]

I remember seeing boat trains at Folkestone in steam days with several tank engines, typically two at the front and two at the rear. This made quite a spectacle seen from the beach when I was a child. I think they just took the train up the hill to Folkestone central where a main line loco would take over.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Don’t think they were in later years when it was a case of the train engine that had brought the previous working in giving the departing train a push en route to Eastfield.

The D6100s fitted up with the slip coupling were the last with NBL engine to remain in service so possibly when they finished the system changed.
There was a gap in my Queen St visits from 1968 to two years ago so I missed the later loco-hauled operation.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I remember seeing boat trains at Folkestone in steam days with several tank engines, typically two at the front and two at the rear. This made quite a spectacle seen from the beach when I was a child. I think they just took the train up the hill to Folkestone central where a main line loco would take over.

That's right, those sturdy little R1 class locos did thoroughly commendable work on that branch. Sometimes one at each end, sometimes one up front plus two banking; and I am not surprised to learn the heaviest boat trains required four locos in total.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2026 ==

In days of old it was a whistle code.

This video, of Standard 4MTs 80080 (front) + 80079 (banker) when they stalled on their final approach into Exeter Central (1-May 1994), the leading loco whistles as it approaches the summit - although I'm half-inclined to think it's "playing to the audience", rather than informing the (still in the tunnel) rear loco.

 

[andyjhatton]

“Life On The Lickey 1943-1986” (ISBN 9781858585239) is a good read on the operation of Lickey Bank.
I appreciate different banking operations had their own processes and procedures.

 

[childwallblues]

Other than Lickey (the sleeper) and Cowlairs (quite a lot) where was the last regularly scheduled banking of passenger trains in the UK? Not talking about railtours, push-pull operations or ailing locos…
Again for clarity, not including MLVs on the Folkestone Harbour branch unless they came off at the top.

What about the biomass trains out of Liverpool Docks being banked by a Clsss 69 (currently 69008) up to Tuebrook Sidings?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Exeter St Davids to Central is still permitted in the Sectional Appendix though. Upwey

I wonder when a banked train last ran up it. I only saw one, in summer 1983*

Here’s a clip of 57603 with the Up Sleepers being assisted up to Exeter Central by 57605 in March 2019.

 

[The exile]

What about the biomass trains out of Liverpool Docks being banked by a Clsss 69 (currently 69008) up to Tuebrook Sidings?

Biomass seems a very pejorative word for passengers - even if strictly accurate!

 

[Sun Chariot]

Biomass seems a very pejorative word for passengers - even if strictly accurate!

I've just released a mouthful of coffee over my laptop.

 

[EveningStar]

“Life On The Lickey 1943-1986” (ISBN 9781858585239) is a good read on the operation of Lickey Bank.
I appreciate different banking operations had their own processes and procedures.

Is a good book and the author, Pat Wallace, was a real gentleman always willing to chat to the spotters on Garrington's Bridge by the banker drivers mess room. Sadly, he died shortly after publication of his book.

 

[01d-and]

With reference to The Lickey Incline , I think that the 66's were fitted with auto-release couplings so they could hook up to buckeye coupled HTA wagons loaded with imported coal from Portbury ? as a lot of these wagons did not have traditional buffers. It has been suggested that the auto release did not always work and the banker travelled with the train until it was safely put aside for the driver to operate a manually release [lump hammer ??]. As for as I know , the banker crossover at Blackwell is still in place but with the vast reduction in trains needed to be banked , it does not see a lot of use. Also ,as said above Pat Wallace was a great guy and his book is an excellent read.

 

[Bill57p9]

It was well over 40 years ago now however the merry-go-round trains over the Woodhead route would usually be double headed with class 76s, with an additional pair of 76s at the rear banking up the Worsborough incline. The 76s were fitted with an intercom system that allowed the lead driver to talk to the banker using the overhead wire.

 

[6Gman]

Thousands of railway books have been published over the years but one huge gap is "Assistance Required: a history of banking and related matters" {title may need some tweaking}.

A comprehensive record of where it was done, why it was done, and how it was done.

 

[Bevan Price]

Cowlairs bankers were couple to the train. I certainly remember the D6100s used had two coupling chains and one specially shaped banking one, was lifted by a chain arrangement into the cab. Their predecessors - ex NB 0-6-2Ts and the V1/V3s had a similar arrangement, from photos.
I don't remember seeing this system at any other bank; I wonder why it was applied there.

On a quick thread search, Euston doesn't seem to have been mentioned but the loco that brought in the empty stock there usually gave a'shove' to the departing train.

Not strictly banking, but incoming steam locos at London Waterloo sometimes "shoved" departing trains to the end of the platform, presumably to lessen the chances of the departing loco from slipping on the curved track.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Not strictly banking, but incoming steam locos at London Waterloo sometimes "shoved" departing trains to the end of the platform, presumably to lessen the chances of the departing loco from slipping on the curved track.

One of my one-time colleagues had an interesting story from his time as a trainee at Waterloo about that.
The M7 hauled the stock in, and the driver told the fireman to uncouple it. Not wishing to pass judgment on the attitudes of Waterloo train crew in those days but the response of the fireman was 'not my job, nothing to do with me mate!'. Driver 'well, I'm certainly not, I'm a Driver!'
Next scene in the story was at Clapham Junction, where a Bournemouth was seen passing through at speed behind a Merchant, with a (rather rough riding, I'd guess) M7 still on the back (and going backwards, to add to the fun).
Don't know how it was sorted out.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Is a good book and the author, Pat Wallace, was a real gentleman always willing to chat to the spotters on Garrington's Bridge by the banker drivers mess room. Sadly, he died shortly after publication of his book.

Not read the book so not sure if there is a mention of an incident on tbe bank one night involving the 2x37 bankers. A driver working a freight from Gloucester to Bescot which was diagrammed a "small engine" a 25 or a 31 but cant remember. This driver was having a lot of issues going on at home and unfortunately was not concentrating on what he was doing. He shut off power and the weight of the train overpowered the bankers and shoved them back into the sand drag halfway up. It didn't end well for the poor tormented guy and he took his life under a train near Wolverhampton months later.

There were several banker jobs in the West Midlands - T53 at Stourbridge, T70 at Saltley and T61 at Great Bridge / Walsall, which relocated to Bescot. In the late 1970s and early 1980s "target 53" was diagrammed a class 45, and shoved from Kingswinford up to Dudley and Stourbridge Jn up to Rowley Regis. In the case of the latter the banker always "tied on" and this was because of a slight falling gradient from the junction towards Lye. The assisted train stopped in Rowley Regis forthe banker to uncouple.

"Target 70" was diagrammed a class 25 and sat in it's own bank engine siding near Landor St to shove freights up past St Andrews Jn towards Camp Hill or to get the Didcot bound coal trains up towards Bordesley. The 25 diagram was replsced by class 31.

"Target 61" was arranged as required to either be in the Brook siding in Walsall, or at Great Bridge to shove towards Dudley, but also to bank from Perry Barr to Soho. For the latter there was a plunger on the signal at Perry Barr which the banker crew pressed when they were ready, which gave an indication to the driver at the front to proceed, the banker shoving up through Handworth park to the top of the bank at Soho. Target 61 was also a class 25 then a class 31, and it latter years was parked i nthe South end of Bescot Up yard.

 

[Richard Scott]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned Manchester Victoria as sure used to be a 25 sat there for use as a banker, Miles Platting comes to mind, is that correct?

 

[Trackman]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned Manchester Victoria as sure used to be a 25 sat there for use as a banker, Miles Platting comes to mind, is that correct?

Correct. You could hear the class 25 idling when walking up to the platform.
I'm not sure of process, but after the train left there would be a shunt theatre indication and it would set off to bank to a pre-determined section then back off and then was routed back to the rats nest outside the coastal buffet.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned Manchester Victoria as sure used to be a 25 sat there for use as a banker, Miles Platting comes to mind, is that correct?

Correct, and by the late 1980s a Class 37 and then a Class 60 (or to my infant son when we passed through Victoria, a big-nose diesel or a see-through diesel).

 

[172007]

Old Hill bank in the West Midlands still has bankers. Its used when the Lickey bank is closed. Banker sits outside the former signal box at Stourbridge Jct in the chord to platform 1. Freights use the goods loop and the banker attaches. The bankers come off in Rowleu Regis goods loop.

 

[ac6000cw]

and shoved from Kingswinford up to Dudley

You mean Kingswinford Junction (near Brierley Hill) I assume?

In the early/mid 1970s, Stourbridge Junction was one of my favourite train watching spots - bankers back then usually sat in the loop on the east side of the mainline between duties, then ran south into the station and reversed through the crossover onto the rear of freights. Usually a 45 or 47, but occasionally a pair of 25s.

 

[Acathater]

I'm mentally crossing off the locations with steep banks but which no longer make use of a banking engine. It's a rather sobering list.
Two recollectons from the early 1980s, sadly missed: Exeter St Davids up to Central; and Upwey Bank out of Weymouth.

Something I've wondered about in the past: trains were banked up Upwey, but all the comments I've read indicate that going southbound up Evershot bank trains were piloted. Same line, but different procedures. Any idea why?

 

[Gloster]

Something I've wondered about in the past: trains were banked up Upwey, but all the comments I've read indicate that going southbound up Evershot bank trains were piloted. Same line, but different procedures. Any idea why?

I suspect that there is a general reluctance to have locos at the rear of a train for longer than necessation for the actual banking; there may well be technical reasons for this, but it does strike me as adding to your difficulties. At Bincombe the bank starts only a short distance off the end of Weymouth station platform, so the banker is pushing pretty well from the start. At Evershot the loco has about five miles of trailing along at the back without much purpose before you hit the bank if it attaches at Yeovil, where it is based. You could attach it at Yetminster, when the box was open, but now you are adding in an extra stop and more light engine movements.