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Caledonian Sleeper

Highlander1

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Surely as the Caledonian Sleeper is a Brand operated by Scottish Rail Holdings a company wholly owned by the Scottish Government they should already be aware?
I very much doubt this sort of thing makes into the inbox of Stephen Flynn, who has a massive portfolio after the number of cabinet positions was reduced. It'll be buried in a performance report from Transport Scotland. There's no Railway Minister as there is in the Westminster government.
 
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RailUK Forums

Butts

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I very much doubt this sort of thing makes into the inbox of Stephen Flynn, who has a massive portfolio after the number of cabinet positions was reduced. It'll be buried in a performance report from Transport Scotland. There's no Railway Minister as there is in the Westminster government.

Mind you he was also a Westminster MP as well until recently, indeed the leader of the SNP contingent.

However after his well publicised World Cup exploits during "term time" I suspect he's more of a "BA Man"
 

JamieL

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I doubt CS punctuality and reliability will make it to the Government's intray because I don't think it is really that bad. If this thread had a pro-rata positive posts for successful and on-time journeys, then it would be many thousands of pages long at least.
 

SuspectUsual

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I doubt CS punctuality and reliability will make it to the Government's intray because I don't think it is really that bad. If this thread had a pro-rata positive posts for successful and on-time journeys, then it would be many thousands of pages long at least.

OK, since the start of June.

Overall 7.0% cancelled and 18.0% late.

The best performing service is the up Edinburgh, and that has been cancelled or late 11.4% of the time.

The up Aberdeen has been late or cancelled 40.0% of the time.

(And that's using the public timetable, not the working timetable - its even worse when you measure it against what they internally expect to achieve)

Is that "really not that bad"?

What do you think good looks like?
 

najaB

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Is that "really not that bad"?

What do you think good looks like?
Like many operators, it goes through bad spells. But generally speaking it isn't that bad of an operation considering the ease with which their operations are disrupted, and the limited opportunities for recovery.
 

JamieL

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OK, since the start of June.

Overall 7.0% cancelled and 18.0% late.

The best performing service is the up Edinburgh, and that has been cancelled or late 11.4% of the time.

The up Aberdeen has been late or cancelled 40.0% of the time.

(And that's using the public timetable, not the working timetable - its even worse when you measure it against what they internally expect to achieve)

Is that "really not that bad"?

What do you think good looks like?
So 93% not cancelled as a started for ten. And then for the 7% cancelled, where were they cancelled? Was it just one portion of a leg or the whole London/destination leg. I reckon I have been on 50+ CS journeys in recent memory and was only cancelled once (and at a station less than 15mins from my destination) and haven't had many delays (all of which were easily mitigated). I have many more problems on other forms of transport - my primary alternative to the CS is British Airways and I have been delayed more on their service than the CS. And if I drive congestion or motorway closures are almost guaranteed these days.
 

sh24

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Given the ongoing weather and infrastructure challenges those stats don't seem to bad. How do Avanti and LNER look for the same period?
 

JamieL

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Given the ongoing weather and infrastructure challenges those stats don't seem to bad. How do Avanti and LNER look for the same period?
Avanti for the period June 2026 to July 2026. A little worse than CS it seems.

1787250308436.png

 

capital12

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20 Aug 2012
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Depends what you’re using it for I guess?! If it’s the odd leisure trip then the reliability is probably not that bad as the chance of your infrequent trip going breasts skyward is less than those making or attempting more regular travel.

If you’re using it for business and need to rely on it to get a meeting on time then it’s truly dismal in my eyes, before getting onto how uncomfortable it is to travel on!

The sleeper passes the back of our house and the nearest station is 5 minutes away, but I’d sooner drive 2 and half hours to Edinburgh Airport and fly to London as I know I’ll generally make my meetings and get a decent sleep in a hotel!
 

JamieL

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Depends what you’re using it for I guess?! If it’s the odd leisure trip then the reliability is probably not that bad as the chance of your infrequent trip going breasts skyward is less than those making or attempting more regular travel.

If you’re using it for business and need to rely on it to get a meeting on time then it’s truly dismal in my eyes, before getting onto how uncomfortable it is to travel on!

The sleeper passes the back of our house and the nearest station is 5 minutes away, but I’d sooner drive 2 and half hours to Edinburgh Airport and fly to London as I know I’ll generally make my meetings and get a decent sleep in a hotel!
I have never missed a meeting using the CS. Nor have I had any issues with sleeper quality (although clearly that is subjective).
 

SuspectUsual

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Was it just one portion of a leg or the whole London/destination leg.

Each leg separately, ie 10 services per night. So the kindest measure I suppose, but also I think the most accurate

The alternative would be to look at it as 4 services per night and any element of a service failing killing the whole thing


I reckon I have been on 50+ CS journeys in recent memory and was only cancelled once (and at a station less than 15mins from my destination) and haven't had many delays (all of which were easily mitigated)

If that's your experience then good for you, but the data suggests you're lucky. Perhaps buy a Euromillions ticket?!?


considering the ease with which their operations are disrupted, and the limited opportunities for recovery

Yes, its more complicated than other TOCs, but being realistic it is slackly timed so there are opportunities for recovery
 

Krokodil

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I've had far less trouble with CS than with Nightjet. Regardless of the operator or country though the cause usually comes down to infrastructure issues.
 

najaB

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Yes, its more complicated than other TOCs, but being realistic it is slackly timed so there are opportunities for recovery
The slack timings allow recovery from late running, but aren't much help if something goes wrong with the stock or locomotives where a daytime operator with a bigger fleet can substitute a set, add special stop order, or accommodate passengers on a later service.
 
Joined
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On paper the sleeper's reliability might be on a par or better than many other services, but it's not a great comparison because there's only really one sleeper service every 24 hours.

With most long distance alternatives if a journey is cancelled you'll be able to catch the next departure and maybe lose an hour or two. But if anything goes wrong with a sleeper journey it will probably involve a significant inconvenience for the passengers.
 

JamieL

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On paper the sleeper's reliability might be on a par or better than many other services, but it's not a great comparison because there's only really one sleeper service every 24 hours.

With most long distance alternatives if a journey is cancelled you'll be able to catch the next departure and maybe lose an hour or two. But if anything goes wrong with a sleeper journey it will probably involve a significant inconvenience for the passengers.
I suppose this depends doesn't it. If the train fails in Corrour on the way south then you are probably a little stuck unless you fancy a midnight expedition. If it fails at Preston though, a little imagination and self action can see you hop across to the first day day train for a similar ETA. The CS must be viewed in the context of the broader rail eco-system.
 

JonathanH

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I'm 99.9% certain there have been plenty of ECS daytime moves up and down the WCML in the past, so not sure what has changed to mean that couldn't have happened this week.
Yes, there have, but everything still needs to be in the right place for that to happen, including staff on overtime. While stock can potentially be moved between London and the Central Belt, or the Central Belt and the Highland destinations, going the whole way in daytime is unlikely to be practical, not least given the stock also has to be cleaned and serviced internally.
 

jagardner1984

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11 May 2008
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Asking because I don't know - imagining a move Polmadie to Wembley or vice versa were being organised - if I am sat in GBRF/CS control at 2am looking at a screen with a dead train at Milton Keynes, what would be the process to decide / arrange that move, and what would be the most common blockages to enabling it to happen ?

Feels very relevant to this discussion.
 

leightonbd

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4 Oct 2013
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Was Edinburgh (South Sub) but more Strathspey now.
I very much doubt this sort of thing makes into the inbox of Stephen Flynn, who has a massive portfolio after the number of cabinet positions was reduced. It'll be buried in a performance report from Transport Scotland. There's no Railway Minister as there is in the Westminster government.
Given that only last week he was pleased to announce a study into whether Scottish sleepers could be extended to European destinations (!), it may in fact be closer to his radar.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

On paper the sleeper's reliability might be on a par or better than many other services, but it's not a great comparison because there's only really one sleeper service every 24 hours.

With most long distance alternatives if a journey is cancelled you'll be able to catch the next departure and maybe lose an hour or two. But if anything goes wrong with a sleeper journey it will probably involve a significant inconvenience for the passengers.
Sad but true. I love the CS and take it whenever I can, but if it goes wrong it goes very, very wrong. Low risk but high consequence.
 

boiledbeans2

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15 Oct 2020
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What's going on tonight (night of 20/8 to morning of 21/8)?
Both northbound trains currently delayed by 2 to 3 hours.
 

GordonT

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on the other hand the lowlander arrived in Euston half an hour early, so you can't say it's universally bad!
In a sense that's the problem currently. Folk are rocking up with the reasonable expectation of getting what it says on the tin whereas the lottery of which particular service or services will be delayed and which will run normally on the night a passenger wishes to travel seems to be becoming a recurring feature at the moment. From realtime trains the Northbound Lowlander (1S26) seems to have commenced from Watford Junction (rather than Euston) at the ungodly hour of 0254 (161L). https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C04572/2026-08-20/detailed
Surely "that way madness lies".
 
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styles

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Gwynedd
In a sense that's the problem currently. Folk are rocking up with the reasonable expectation of getting what it says on the tin whereas the lottery of which particular service or services will be delayed and which will run normally on the night a passenger wishes to travel seems to be becoming a recurring feature at the moment. From realtime trains the Northbound Lowlander (1S26) seems to have commenced from Watford Junction (rather than Euston) at the ungodly hour of 0254 (161L). https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C04572/2026-08-20/detailed
Surely "that way madness lies".
The cancellation reason also doesn't quite make sense.

"a problem with the train".

A problem which only manifests between Euston and Watford?
 

zwk500

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The cancellation reason also doesn't quite make sense.

"a problem with the train".

A problem which only manifests between Euston and Watford?
A problem coupling the loco (or with the loco itself) at the London end would prevent hauling into Euston but if the Country end Loco was fine it could depart out of the Watford end of Wembley ICD.
 

GordonT

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The cancellation reason also doesn't quite make sense.

"a problem with the train".

A problem which only manifests between Euston and Watford?
I'm assuming it came "light from depot" once "something" had eventually been fixed, to take up service at Watford, outrageous as this may sound. The more interesting question probably is what were the implications for intending passengers from Euston.
 
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Mike99

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I'm assuming it came "light from depot" once "something" had eventually been fixed, to take up service at Watford, outrageous as this may sound. The more interesting question probably is what were the implications for intending passengers from Euston.
I notice the Highlander left Euston at 23:47, I wonder if it waited for passengers for the 23:45 Lowlander which started from Watford Junction at 02:54. Glasgow passengers maybe then moved on from Edinburgh on a day service. I believe the Southbound 1M16 is brought back from Preston by the Highlander Northbound driver, so couldnt depart until a driver brake at Preston. Just my thoughts
 

GordonT

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I notice the Highlander left Euston at 23:47, I wonder if it waited for passengers for the 23:45 Lowlander which started from Watford Junction at 02:54. Glasgow passengers maybe then moved on from Edinburgh on a day service. I believe the Southbound 1M16 is brought back from Preston by the Highlander Northbound driver, so couldnt depart until a driver brake at Preston. Just my thoughts
Sounds likely. Reconciling booked accomodation with actual provision must have been fun.
 

deepthought

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29 Dec 2016
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Last night's debacle. Stock for 1S25 had a problem after arriving in Euston. 1S26 stock in platform 15 was utilised for 1S25 and eventually left 2347. Passengers for 1S26 sent to Watford. The original 1S25 stock went to Wembley yard for defective coach to be removed and reformed. The stock then ran empty to Watford and started from there at 0254. That's the operational side of it, I have no knowledge on whether 1S25 had started loading before the stock swap or if the fault was discovered prior to boarding. Whatever happened it's been a rough week for sleeper passengers.
 

800002

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19 Jun 2019
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With 1S25 currently endeavouring, Kingussie 181 minutes late, departure registered at 1018.
 

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