Dale Charman to leave LUL

[Mldaureol]

Just found out that Dale Charman is leaving LUL in a few weeks.
He will be letting us know the reason and what his new project is in a few weeks time.

For those who don’t know, he is/was a Piccadilly line tube driver who used to film his journeys using a mobile device from the cab on the front of the train.

However he was made to stop due to certain complaints.

 

[Mawkie]

Those of us that have the pleasure of working with him have known he's leaving for a while.

It would be indiscrete of me to spoil the surprise of his next adventure, so I'll leave it there.

 

[TFN]

For those who don’t know, he is/was a Piccadilly line tube driver who used to film his
journeys using a mobile phone from the cab on the front of the train.

I believe it was a GoPro, not a mobile phone.

 

[Posa]

Surprised he is leaving just as the new stock is coming in.

Be interesting to see where he is off to.

 

[A60stock]

Surprised he is leaving just as the new stock is coming in.

Be interesting to see where he is off to.

It might actually in part be due to this. I did hear that many drivers left the Met when the S Stock came in. Not sure how true that is though.

Would drivers be inclined to leave lines when stock changes occur (where we are talking after a service life of 35 to 50 years)?

 

[waterboo]

Piccadilly Line also has a higher attrition rate than other lines on LUL. For that reason it's normally seen as a starter lime for T/Ops before they can transfer to other lines.

 

[Dstock7080]

It might actually in part be due to this. I did hear that many drivers left the Met when the S Stock came in. Not sure how true that is though.

It certainly does happen, A Stock were very basic technically and the thought of computerisation and new learning skills towards the end of their career is quite frightening.
Some left the District as even stepping up from C and D Stock was a challenge for them.

 

[GordonT]

Piccadilly Line also has a higher attrition rate than other lines on LUL. For that reason it's normally seen as a starter lime for T/Ops before they can transfer to other lines.

Interesting. At the other extreme is any particular line to an extent regarded as the "top notch" line in terms of status?

 

[Mawkie]

Interesting. At the other extreme is any particular line to an extent regarded as the "top notch" line in terms of status?

The Met would like to think of themselves in that regard.

In reality, the waiting lists for depots are most lengthy (6+ years) at Barking and Upminster. Does that make them "top notch"? Not sure.

Current waiting list for Acton Town (Pic) is 2. Not two years, two people.

I suppose waiting lists are probably more to do with proximity to homes than anything else, so maybe not relevant.

 

[announcements]

Piccadilly Line also has a higher attrition rate than other lines on LUL. For that reason it's normally seen as a starter lime for T/Ops before they can transfer to other lines.

I had always assumed the Victoria line would be the starter line: fairly mundane, stuck below ground and automatic. The Piccadilly line, conversely, has a lot of route variety, good balance of dark/light sections and is technically more demanding as one that needs to be driven.

 

[Mawkie]

I had always assumed the Victoria line would be the starter line: fairly mundane, stuck below ground and automatic. The Piccadilly line, conversely, has a lot of route variety, good balance of dark/light sections and is technically more demanding as one that needs to be driven.

@bramling rather excellently identified core reasons for the Piccadilly Line having a high turnover in a previous thread (which of course I can't find now) but it's basically crappy, agressive, and confrontational line management, linked with a higher risk of incidents due to manual driving and ever-diminishing training.

None of these reasons are why Dale is leaving incidentally. It's his last day today if I recall.

 

[A60stock]

Sad to hear he is going.

Utter speculation of course but it would not surprise me if this (in part), had something to do (albeit, indirectly) with how management prevented him from doing the full runs on youtube.

 

[Central]

When the Victoria Line first opened you had to have at least 25 years service to be an ATO.

 

[announcements]

Interesting, why was that?

 

[Old Walter]

When the Victoria Line first opened you had to have at least 25 years service

I heard something similar ages ago - a seniority date of at least 1949, not saying that’s right but it aligns with the widely reported aspect that you needed some years in to work on the new line.

Interesting, why was that?

Short answer: More money. Apart from very odd parts of the network (such as the South Acton shuttle which went in 1959) the trains were crewed by a driver and guard. The new Victoria line trains had a totally new grade called an ATO (Automatic Train Operator) where the trains were crewed by one person so the wages were higher to reflect someone had the responsibility of a driver and a guard.

Apart from the platform duties, dealing with train faults could be pretty different as with two people assisting procedures and getting to the root of a fault could be much faster, having someone on their own was a very different way of doing things.

The pay differential between crew and OPO lasted years afterwards…..eventually ending after the Northern line had to pay drivers the OPO rate while working with guards just to stop people from leaving the line.

Edit: Thinking again I think the ATO Vic rate was higher than manual driving OPO and became a closed grade as more lines went to one person operation - happy to be corrected/expanded upon as that’s a bit of a grey area for me.

Anyway! Back to Dale….I was told at the start of the week there was a barbecue planned today for him, whether that happened I don’t know, and his last driving day (earlier in the week than you’d think due to the 24TS testing shutdown) ended up being very short due to issues on the line. I guess we’ll see what happens next on YT….watch this space

 

[boiledbeans2]

I had always assumed the Victoria line would be the starter line: fairly mundane, stuck below ground and automatic. The Piccadilly line, conversely, has a lot of route variety, good balance of dark/light sections and is technically more demanding as one that needs to be driven.

You are thinking from a trainspotter's perspective. Most 'normals' would prefer an ATO line. Sit back, press a couple of buttons, get big paycheck.

 

[Kay_M]

The Met would like to think of themselves in that regard.

In reality, the waiting lists for depots are most lengthy (6+ years) at Barking and Upminster. Does that make them "top notch"? Not sure.

Current waiting list for Acton Town (Pic) is 2. Not two years, two people.

I suppose waiting lists are probably more to do with proximity to homes than anything else, so maybe not relevant.

You could throw North Greenwich into the mix. I saw that list and almost starting crying at how long it is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2026 ==

@bramling rather excellently identified core reasons for the Piccadilly Line having a high turnover in a previous thread (which of course I can't find now) but it's basically crappy, agressive, and confrontational line management, linked with a higher risk of incidents due to manual driving and ever-diminishing training.

None of these reasons are why Dale is leaving incidentally. It's his last day today if I recall.

Which London Underground route has the most stations in daylight?

But do come in the next year or so, as the 'brilliant' designer of the new trains has replaced all the useful transverse seats, long touted to visitors for the DLR's interesting views of Docklands, with inward-facing sideways seats where all you get to see is your fellow passengers opposite...

www.railforums.co.uk

This is the post that @bramling made a while back (you may want to scroll up further in the thread. As I tried to put in that particular thread but it wouldn't allow me)

 

[Central]

There was a anomaly on Victoria Line in the early days the train maintainers who did the maintenance on67TS had to pass a four week course at White City Training Centre,if they qualified they got an extra 10/-(50p) a week.Motormen qualifying as ATOs got around an extra £10 a week.

 

[Old Walter]

There was a anomaly on Victoria Line in the early days the train maintainers who did the maintenance on67TS had to pass a four week course at White City Training Centre,if they qualified they got an extra 10/-(50p) a week.Motormen qualifying as ATOs got around an extra £10 a week.

Blimey, no wonder it was hard to get on there - £10 was a big increase in 1968. The anomaly is huge as well, had a play with the values on the Measuring Worth site and the difference is massive. Thanks for the post, interesting to see what the difference was.

 

[bramling]

You are thinking from a trainspotter's perspective. Most 'normals' would prefer an ATO line. Sit back, press a couple of buttons, get big paycheck.

It’s a little more nuanced than that. What drivers like about ATO is that there’s generally less risk of having an incident, specifically SPADs. This takes away one of the stresses of the job, particularly for those who have stuff on their history. So there’s a bit less to go wrong, especially if turning up not feeling 100%.

However many drivers find it mentally draining just pressing two buttons and going up and down a dark tunnel for 8 hours, and the whole thing of having to maintain alertness whilst alternating between short periods of high workload in amongst long periods of low workload.

What drivers don’t tend to like is manual driving within the various ATP systems, as it’s generally not particularly user-friendly.

If you ask drivers whether they preferred manual driving under signals compared to ATO then a surprising number will say yes, subject to the point above about the risk of SPADs. Of course, as time goes on the numbers with experience of driving under proper signalling continues to diminish.

 

[waterboo]

Are drivers taught any non technical skills on training for maintaining concentration during long periods.of.ATO running.

 

[Central]

Blimey, no wonder it was hard to get on there - £10 was a big increase in 1968. The anomaly is huge as well, had a play with the values on the Measuring Worth site and the difference is massive. Thanks for the post, interesting to see what the difference was.

I was one of the train maintainers.

 

[DavyCrocket]

Are drivers taught any non technical skills on training for maintaining concentration during long periods.of.ATO running.

No

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Regarding lines such as the Bakerloo and Piccadilly Line, which are manually driven, is the Bakerloo Line a more popular line to work on than the Piccadilly? The Picc is seen as a starter line, and sees higher attrition rates. How popular is the Bakerloo Line? It is relatively short, and features unspectacular scenery north of Queens Park and terminates at E&C in a tunnel. Is the Bakerloo a popular choice for drivers and does it see better retention than the Picc?

 

[whoosh]

Regarding lines such as the Bakerloo and Piccadilly Line, which are manually driven, is the Bakerloo Line a more popular line to work on than the Piccadilly? The Picc is seen as a starter line, and sees higher attrition rates. How popular is the Bakerloo Line? It is relatively short, and features unspectacular scenery north of Queens Park and terminates at E&C in a tunnel. Is the Bakerloo a popular choice for drivers and does it see better retention than the Picc?

There is the possibility that it will become more unpopular in the future.
For a considerable number of years, there has been the following agreement:

"BAKERLOO LINE
No more than 3 round trips in the tunnel section to be scheduled without a break,
however 3 round trips plus Elephant & Castle to/from London Road Depot may be
scheduled. No more than five and a half round trips in the tunnel section will be
scheduled on any duty."

However, this agreement is being recinded with the new 4 day week arrangements. I think this is why the Bakerloo Line has been chosen as the first line to have 4 day week rotas. I daresay the full horror of what they could schedule won't be unleashed until after the whole underground has 4 day week rotas after the initial success with them that the Bakerloo Line will have to start with.

 

[Mawkie]

There is the possibility that it will become more unpopular in the future.
For a considerable number of years, there has been the following agreement:

"BAKERLOO LINE
No more than 3 round trips in the tunnel section to be scheduled without a break,
however 3 round trips plus Elephant & Castle to/from London Road Depot may be
scheduled. No more than five and a half round trips in the tunnel section will be
scheduled on any duty."

However, this agreement is being recinded with the new 4 day week arrangements. I think this us why the Bakerloo Line has been chosen as the first line to have 4 day week rotas. I daresay the full horror of what they could schedule won't be unleashed until after the whole underground has 4 day week rotas after the initial success with them that the Bakerloo Line will have to start with.

The (Phase 2*) Bakerloo rosters have been published internally this week. I'm not sure they comply with the above on a number of duties.

*Phase 2 being extended driving parameters, but still a 5DW.

 

[Forty29]

Been watching his last run's filmed from the cab on YouTube. Presume he released them because he no longer works for LU so cannot prevent him from doing so. He explained it all in the video's why and said more journey from the cab to come.
Will miss his personal style of presenting the facts but cannot believe he will miss driving from near Peterborough each shift!

 

[Mawkie]

Been watching his last run's filmed from the cab on YouTube. Presume he released them because he no longer works for LU so cannot prevent him from doing so. He explained it all in the video's why and said more journey from the cab to come.
Will miss his personal style of presenting the facts but cannot believe he will miss driving from near Peterborough each shift!

Out of interest (for those of us that don't want to watch) what was his main reason for leaving?

You might be eating your words about missing driving when he announces his next career move!

 

[fIIsion]

@bramling rather excellently identified core reasons for the Piccadilly Line having a high turnover in a previous thread (which of course I can't find now) but it's basically crappy, agressive, and confrontational line management, linked with a higher risk of incidents due to manual driving and ever-diminishing training.

None of these reasons are why Dale is leaving incidentally. It's his last day today if I recall.

That bit about line management is completely false.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 07:02 ==

Sad to hear he is going.

Utter speculation of course but it would not surprise me if this (in part), had something to do (albeit, indirectly) with how management prevented him from doing the full runs on youtube.

Dale wanted a career change, nothing more than that. Yes he will not miss the daily commute from Peterborough everyday however he simply wanted to work for himself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 07:17 ==

Piccadilly Line also has a higher attrition rate than other lines on LUL. For that reason it's normally seen as a starter lime for T/Ops before they can transfer to other lines.

A lot of drivers live in places like Essex which is why depots like Upminster and the East Central Line depots are popular transfer destinations. From a resourcing perspective this creates a lot of vacancies which is why a lot of new starters end up on the Piccadilly Line.

The line itself has many challenges which also factor into depot transfers. A lot of new drivers struggle with the manual operation of the 73TS. There are also issues with rostering involving links which most other lines don’t use.

Probably the most common reason I hear from drivers wanting to transfer away from the Picc is the depots themselves are not ideally placed for commuting to. Aside from wanting to work closer to home (see above), roads like the M25, A406 and A10 often have issues and just add stress before you have even started work.

 

[announcements]

The line itself has many challenges which also factor into depot transfers. A lot of new drivers struggle with the manual operation of the 73TS. There are also issues with rostering involving links which most other lines don’t use.

What are links?