National Express have had numerous years of being the dominant player as the national coach network - however, if they can't compete with Flixbus then Flixbus will take over. I'm not sure why the government should step in as unlike rural buses they're not providing an essential "lifeline" service. Where it's clearly right for the government to step in to ensure the continuation of service.
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National Express Coaches Discussion
- Thread starter cnjb8
- Start date
National Express have had numerous years of being the dominant player as the national coach network - however, if they can't compete with Flixbus then Flixbus will take over. I'm not sure why the government should step in as unlike rural buses they're not providing an essential "lifeline" service. Where it's clearly right for the government to step in to ensure the continuation of service.
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R
RailUK Forums
In the past, they provided many links the railway didn't, but most of these have disappeared, many before serious competition. If that wasn't the point that the government was going to step in, I can't see them doing it now there's heavy competition.
Exactly. Whilst it might be more difficult for the customer as they aren't getting a direct link, it makes more sense to use the funding to subsidise local buses to a nearby centre where they can catch a long distance coach / train rather than fund coaches going through tiny little towns that don't have the need. The benefit is that the local buses being subsidised also means that people who are not taking long distance journeys but just a trip from village to town are also covered rather than having to fund both.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Trawscymru is an example of this sort of plugging of the gaps in the rail network rather than competing with it, so there is precedent. But I'd agree it's not really a NatEx/Flix thing.
johncrossley
Established Member
That sounds like a good idea, especially if it matched the usual coach policy of operating more or less the same service 7 days a week, meaning that small towns would get a Sunday morning service that they might not otherwise get with a regular local bus.
Where would the money come from to fund this expansion though?
Sometimes you need to operate loss leaders on order to grow the market. How did Flixbus get a foothold if it didn't initially run at a loss?
Yes, something is up. Its a shame because I prefer the network of National Express, even though that's shrinking.
Is it the National Express coach network itself, or the parent company being in a mess that is the reason for these suspected financial difficulties?
Often perfectly successful companies are dragged down due to no fault of their own
Surely FlixBus has only replaced Megabus as a competitor on key routes, there are still many more National Express coaches on the road than FlixBuses. If you stand at Victoria Coach Station I’d say NatEx outnumber FlixBus by at least 3 to 1
Often perfectly successful companies are dragged down due to no fault of their own
Surely FlixBus has only replaced Megabus as a competitor on key routes, there are still many more National Express coaches on the road than FlixBuses. If you stand at Victoria Coach Station I’d say NatEx outnumber FlixBus by at least 3 to 1
It does appear to be the UK coach network that is struggling, compared to the rest of Mobico based on what I can see:
"The group as a whole, which provides coach, bus and rail services in Europe, the United States, North Africa, and the Middle East, reported adjusted revenue increasing by 5.9% to £3.42 billion and adjusted operating profit rising by 17.6% to £231m.
In the UK, the fortunes of the coaching business stood against a 14.3% reduction in profits to £2.4m for its bus operations, with revenue increasing 1.5% to £337.8m."
Was what was reported on Route One last month. So unless they're offloading debt from other areas on to the UK arm, it would appear that it's due to the fortunes in the UK.
"The group as a whole, which provides coach, bus and rail services in Europe, the United States, North Africa, and the Middle East, reported adjusted revenue increasing by 5.9% to £3.42 billion and adjusted operating profit rising by 17.6% to £231m.
In the UK, the fortunes of the coaching business stood against a 14.3% reduction in profits to £2.4m for its bus operations, with revenue increasing 1.5% to £337.8m."
Was what was reported on Route One last month. So unless they're offloading debt from other areas on to the UK arm, it would appear that it's due to the fortunes in the UK.
Were National Express in a position to do that? They were not trying 'to get a foothold' - they were an existing well established Company heavily laden with debt following a leveraged sale and effects of Covid disruption, desperate to reduce that debt, not increase it. I doubt any more 'loss leaders' were desired or practicable.
I wonder if Nat Ex had not been sold to Mobico whether the outcome would have been different? If the coach division was suffering, would they have tried to innovate to regain their market, or just write it off without trying, leaving essentially only the West Midlands buses in the company? Surely they would want to grow the business to try to increase profits again. A foreign owner may just take the view that it had to just cut the losses by reducing the network.
Class73Electro
Member
I used to use the NEx Coach a lot more then I do now, for several reasons.
Firstly, one of the routes I would use it on was Portsmouth - Gatwick for holidays. However now the service has been removed, the closest being Portsmouth - Vic and change to a Gatwick sevrice, which is no longer convenient.
Secondly the price seems to have gone up a lot to the point where its no longer competitive against the train. I have a trip coming up to Penzance. The train takes about 4-5 hours each way, and costs around £80 (admittedly booked in advance, and possibly with split ticketing - I got the price from here). The coach is showing as £80 each way, and takes 13 hours, and only two services a day. I'm happy to take the longer trip but not when the train is cheaper as well.
Firstly, one of the routes I would use it on was Portsmouth - Gatwick for holidays. However now the service has been removed, the closest being Portsmouth - Vic and change to a Gatwick sevrice, which is no longer convenient.
Secondly the price seems to have gone up a lot to the point where its no longer competitive against the train. I have a trip coming up to Penzance. The train takes about 4-5 hours each way, and costs around £80 (admittedly booked in advance, and possibly with split ticketing - I got the price from here). The coach is showing as £80 each way, and takes 13 hours, and only two services a day. I'm happy to take the longer trip but not when the train is cheaper as well.
centraltrains
Member
It hasn't been sold, Mobico was a rename of National Express Group in 2023 and is still traded on the London Stock Exchange. https://www.mobicogroup.com/media/news-releases/2023/change-of-name/
National Express Group acquired Alsa (the Spanish based coach company which is now performing better than NX) quite some time ago in 2005 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2005/oct/12/transportintheuk1
I believe National Express / Mobico has had debt issues going back to the ALSA purchase (and rail franchises) for some time. They have little assets, having sold them all over time to reduce the debt or pay out to the owners. There was little or no help from Govt. for long distance coach operations over the Covid period, unlike for Railways and local buses. If the owners (whichever nationality they may be) either can't raise more money at acceptable rates, or (more likely) don't see a reasonably quick return to profitability, then they will try to cut losses by reducing or withdrawing from the market.
Thanks I stand corrected.
The prices are high on NX and Flix on the Scottish services to England too. I think the pricing model has changed. The coach used to be the last minute option, not anymore.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Flix may well attract a lot of tourists regardless of the price because they're already used to it and they already have the app on their phone, and it works exactly the same as it does at home. This has a lot of power compared to trying to understand a railway that doesn't work quite like the one at home. Very similar to Uber in that sense.
I wonder what proportion of users on the Scottish services of each operator is, and whether this theory actually applies in practice?
Otherwise, goodness only knows why anyone would pay more to spend 8 hours on a coach than 4 hours on a train would cost. Particularly Flix as they're known for poor legroom.
A key difficulty NX may have is that the market for a higher grade of coach service substantially overlaps with rail and air. Lumo could well be doing them a lot of harm in those markets. I'm no big fan of Lumo but if you didn't have big bags and it was cheaper why wouldn't you?
Class73Electro
Member
Thats a shame - I have done a few trips to Glasgow on the overnighter which used to be bargain priced - sometimes £30-40
I’ve just done a spot check
London to Leeds on a random day in a few weeks where I don’t think there is any specific event happening - Thursday 3rd September
National Express lowest price is £12.90 and takes over 5 hours
Flixbus lowest price is £6.99 and takes 5 hours
LNER lowest price £28.60 and takes 2 hours 10 mins
So in this unscientific sample there still looks to be advantage for the price conscious customer over the train
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It looks from the above to be the Scottish services, particularly overnighters, where the price comparison doesn't seem to favour the coach as well as may be expected. I wonder why?
johncrossley
Established Member
I reckon overnighters for this journey are popular because the departure time isn't too late, the arrival time isn't too early and you avoid a night in a hotel.
To be fair thats the price if booked a few weeks in advance or more.
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They certainly tend to be more popular than the day services which take longer and east up a whole day of travel.
The overnighters do have the advantage of getting to London early doors, just like the sleeper.
Statto
Established Member
Yeah, i did like the overnight coaches to/from London, as you could have a full day out then get the overnight back which i did do many times, rather than waiting for off peak to kick on the trains & miss half a day.
Anyway, i see 422 Manchester-London, the Northbound service has a 70 minute break in Birmingham (arrives 02.30 & departs 03.40), were as the Southbound service has a 55 minute break, i know the break is due to the law as the drivers are required to have a break after so many hours driving, but i feel 70 minutes is rather excessive, when the Southbound service has a 55 minute break.
Anyway, i see 422 Manchester-London, the Northbound service has a 70 minute break in Birmingham (arrives 02.30 & departs 03.40), were as the Southbound service has a 55 minute break, i know the break is due to the law as the drivers are required to have a break after so many hours driving, but i feel 70 minutes is rather excessive, when the Southbound service has a 55 minute break.
gingerheid
Established Member
- Joined
- 2 Apr 2006
- Messages
- 1,714
The thing is though... Flix in the UK is already profitable!
This could show one of a few things. Either Flix has mastered life and found the winning formula, or National Express is seriously broken... or some kind of mixture of both.
Statto
Established Member
I don't get some of the times & locations of some of the services.
Such as, there's an 170 that goes from Cheshire Oaks to Leeds at 01.45, now that calls at Manchester Airport which is useful for those with an early flight, as check in for flights open from 4am (the coach arrives at Manchester Airport at 03.25) however Cheshire Oaks is not a great location for passengers, it would be better to start that service at Ellesmere Port bus station instead, as that's not far from the motorway.
One of the others that i've already mentioned is the 421 Liverpool-London, the Southbound service starts 01.45 from Liverpool, Northbound 2am from London & this does not call at any airport, & calls in Manchester, Birmingham, & Milton Keynes, i don't get the point of this service when it starts silly o clock.
Such as, there's an 170 that goes from Cheshire Oaks to Leeds at 01.45, now that calls at Manchester Airport which is useful for those with an early flight, as check in for flights open from 4am (the coach arrives at Manchester Airport at 03.25) however Cheshire Oaks is not a great location for passengers, it would be better to start that service at Ellesmere Port bus station instead, as that's not far from the motorway.
One of the others that i've already mentioned is the 421 Liverpool-London, the Southbound service starts 01.45 from Liverpool, Northbound 2am from London & this does not call at any airport, & calls in Manchester, Birmingham, & Milton Keynes, i don't get the point of this service when it starts silly o clock.
Smethwickian
Member
The one journey per week on service 170 to and from Cheshire Oaks is timed to connect to and from Bus Eireann service 871 which calls at Cheshire Oaks en-route between London and Dublin. Through tickets are sold by both BE and NX.
Is it a positioning journey?
I used the 216 between Bristol Airport and Cardiff. The coach was a tatty 67 plate Levante 2 with National Express logos removed. The driver made a bit of deal with someone who had a ticket for later service. The earlier service only had a few passengers and the driver was saying to her that you cannot buy a new ticket this close to departure. The driver let her on but didnt really see the problem unless the service was fully booked.
My first time at Sophia Gardens, a bunch of stances within a park. Not really handy for the railway station, why can't they go into the interchange.
My first time at Sophia Gardens, a bunch of stances within a park. Not really handy for the railway station, why can't they go into the interchange.
markymark2000
On Moderation
Firstly, Cardiff Bus Interchange isn't built really to handle coaches with the access to/from Penarth Road being very tight, and the horrible right turn (which I am not sure if a coach would even make) if you come from Westgate Street. There is also the fact that the interchange closes regularly because of events.
Secondly, the interchanges regularly closes due to events so NX would have to faff around more adding/removing stops depending on the event dates.
Thirdly, NX would need at least 2-3 stands at the interchange which are suitable for coaches. Of which there is maybe 1 (and that will involve moving services off stand 1)
As annoying as Sophia Gardens is for passengers day to day, it's probably the best place for NX from an operational perspective and for consistency for passengers. It's 5 stands dedicated just to them (you won't find that anywhere else that would accommodate that in Cardiff currently), it's consistent and doesn't amend for events, its out of town enough that coaches don't tend to get as delayed.