Is eurostar liable for inadequate connection times in Paris?

[grinderx]

The metro and rer have been pretty bad this summer. I've heard that this is common in August due to engineering.

Eurostar seems to offer tickets to tgv destinations that involve connection times of not much more than an hour across Paris.

We were denied boarding a tgv because we arrived seconds after the gates closed. Sncf refused to rebook us because eurostar wasn't delayed (they checked).

I imaging eurostar won't care because they treat both legs as different contracts. And hotnat doesn't work because the metro isn't covered by hotnat.

Given that law overrides contracts, does anybody know if we've got any valid complaint with eurostar as they were the retailer?

Suffice to say the metro (I.e. line 4) was a complete shambles. There was miminal crowd control and ambigious messaging. It at times felt like an incident was unfolding and it barely felt safe. People complain about London underground, but their response to overcrowding is absolutely exemplary compared to the metro.

The chances of us making this connection seemed almost impossible in hindsight so surely this should have been factored into the eurostar planner??

 

[rvdborgt]

Which exact connection were you trying to make?

Paris Nord to Paris Montparnasse normally takes about 35 minutes platform to platform, but IIRC planners allow 55 minutes (from London 65 minutes), so you'd have to lose a lot of time to miss your train.

 

[grinderx]

I was once told by a ticket office on the great Northern that the cross London timings were based on an oap with a suitcase.

35 minutes is I suppose possible on a good day for a fit person without significant luggage or children.

In practise we found that the experience includes (in the case of montparnasse):

- Walking almost the full length of the eurostar along quite narrow platforms surrounded by other slow passengers.
- Having to find the metro and buying tickets.
- Figuring out which direction you are going, which in Paris means knowing the end points of the line and not compass points.
- Getting along the underground walkway from the metro to the station, which at montparnasse is similar to the travelators at Waterloo jubilee line.
- Finding which hall at montparnass and navigating the escalators.

Add to this:

- Luggage
- Children
- Toilet stops
- RER closures and overcrowding on line 4
- Poor and dangerous metro crowd control
- No staff at metro gatelines
- Staff and police shouting exit
- Barriers that close early

55 minutes might look a lot on paper, but it is ambitious. Especially with no prior knowledge of the situation with RER that totally overloaded the metro.

To say that we are pretty upset is an understatement. The TGV was still boarding behind the gateline and we were instead told to wait in an office for an hour and then had to pay 150 Euros.

I think Eurostar should have had a reasonably duty to have at least warned us about the travel disruption that apparently had been known about for months, or at least not given us a journey plan that was totally inadequate.

Oh well. Another eurostar journey. Another example of a total lack of resilience in eurostar planning. At least we didnt end up stranded again. I guess we'll fly until Richard Branson offers an alternative I suppose.

Just a warning to others, especially with children. Just don't accept a journey plan between these stations that is less than 2 hours. All it takes is for somebody to sneeze and you'll pay for it.

 

[speedy1]

What ticket type did you hold? Answering these questions may help people help you, but if you just want to let off steam that's fine I guess.

I noticed a semi flexible says "From 30 minutes before departure, ticket may be exchanged once and not refunded thereafter". I'm not familiar with the full terms but that wording could suggest an exchange is possible after departure too. Was the 150 a whole new ticket?

And in Eurostar's defence, they give you a lot of hints if booking online:

- It asks "need to change connection time?" and has a nifty tool to select a longer connection

- The transfer guide says it usually takes 45 minutes. You can do the math and wonder if 20 minutes is enough buffer based on your personal needs

- There is an explicit checkbox "I understand the tickets I am about to purchase represent two separate contracts of transport...In the event of a delay or cancellation, each leg is treated independently to the other."

I'm also curious how you approached both the gateline member of staff and the staff when seeking a rebooking? Did you take a formal and "mea culpa" approach?

 

[Tester]

The metro and rer have been pretty bad this summer. I've heard that this is common in August due to engineering.

Eurostar seems to offer tickets to tgv destinations that involve connection times of not much more than an hour across Paris.

We were denied boarding a tgv because we arrived seconds after the gates closed. Sncf refused to rebook us because eurostar wasn't delayed (they checked).

I imaging eurostar won't care because they treat both legs as different contracts. And hotnat doesn't work because the metro isn't covered by hotnat.

Given that law overrides contracts, does anybody know if we've got any valid complaint with eurostar as they were the retailer?

Suffice to say the metro (I.e. line 4) was a complete shambles. There was miminal crowd control and ambigious messaging. It at times felt like an incident was unfolding and it barely felt safe. People complain about London underground, but their response to overcrowding is absolutely exemplary compared to the metro.

The chances of us making this connection seemed almost impossible in hindsight so surely this should have been factored into the eurostar planner??

Bit in bold.....

For completeness, my understanding is that Hotnat does apply - the various Paris termini are counted as one station. But this is for delays to the first train.

 

[rvdborgt]

I was once told by a ticket office on the great Northern that the cross London timings were based on an oap with a suitcase.

I would think the Paris timings are also based on that.

35 minutes is I suppose possible on a good day for a fit person without significant luggage or children.

That is correct, I did it multiple times. I'm aware not everybody can move at the same pace but at the same time 20 extra minutes should normally be enough.
The extra 10 minutes from London would account for walking the entire length of the Eurostar and being held up by other passengers.
I don't expect though the cross-Paris timings to include buying tickets, time for toilet stops or time to figure out which line and direction you need. You're expected to have looked that up in advance. It does include barriers that close 2 minutes before departure time.
Overcrowding because of RER closures is probably not included. If it's really that bad this summer, then SNCF and Eurostar should have added extra padding to the minimum connection times.

 

[grinderx]

We were as polite as we could be given that neither of us speaks fluent French.

I think one of the things they sets apart good companies is pragmatism. I remember travelling a lot on virgin trains and seeing the much more pragmatic approach to passenger problems than east coast. This really counts when dealing with real people. Especially when those people are foreigners, have children with them or it's really hot.

Definitely we noticed the option to select different connections, but there was nothing on screen to warn us about RER closures or the impact on line 4. Nor was it obvious that a diversion would take so long. So the connection looked reasonable on paper. So we took the default.

It really didn't help that Eurostar's systems didn't issue us tickets with working barcodes and that was after the website initially had errors that would not allow pdf download due to an internal error. The sncf staff had to look up our booking. Even at St pancras they didn't work. So both parties were struggling to deal with the situation.

We gave our tickets to the sncf staff and they said that as the eurostar wasn't reported as delayed that we were not allowed to rebook. We had ten minutes before the last train so had to pay the money or get stranded.

My question here is really one of 'were we set up to fail in the first place?' or perhaps 'could the company have expected that there was a high expectation that they would make more money from us?'.

I suspect that isn't fail, but I'm not an expert in consumer law nor precident in former situations like this? I was hoping maybe somebody knew if this kind of thing happened before? Like I said, I reckon law overrides contract and something about this doesn't feel right. (Airlines used to do stuff like this - I.e. have passengers pay for more stuff at the airport.)

Your point is perfectly valid from one perspective. We should have allowed more time. But realistically, if line 4 is dangerous to use (at one point we thought it was being evacuated), then surely the consequense is always going to involve confusion and delay trying to find a way around the incident? This wasn't easy in the available time (especially since it wasn't clear whether or not a security incident was unfolding at Gare du Nord) and I've been to Paris before.

Isn't it a reasonable expectation that any kind of disruption would result in a high probability of a missed connection? Isn't it a bit negligent to sell tickets with such narrow margins, and then rely in hints to suggest otherwise?

I'm not merely venting here. I really am curious if others have had stuff like this happen, challenged it successfully, etc.

 

[30907]

The man at Seat61 agrees that SNCF offer connection times across Paris that are decidedly tight (but do-able: 42min GdN to GdL seems to be 2x15min plus average journey time, the same formula as NR use, but doesn't allow for the congested platforms which are a distinctive Parisian feature

And yes, I recall a similar complaint here a few years ago, though I don't recall any outcome (they had likewise not completed the transfer in the time they had available).

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm not merely venting here. I really am curious if others have had stuff like this happen, challenged it successfully, etc.

Perhaps ask the Guardian consumer champion to review your case?
Eurostar have caved in before, due to a Graun investigation, when legally they didn't neccesarily have to - it was a matter of policy.
Link below: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...e-us-leave-our-e-bike-battery-behind-in-paris

 

[NCT]

Incidentally, what is the normal British practice in an equivalent situation for a through Advance booking, e.g. Guildford - Leeds via the tube where London - Leeds is the Advance leg? If you followed your itinerary but the Victoria line went belly up?

 

[grinderx]

We assumed that the (new?) option to select a different departure was to allow time to stop for tourism or lunch or something like that. Not because of any other reason.

We've learnt our lesson, but what is to stop other unsuspecting passengers falling to the same trap. I'm pretty sure eurostar didn't used to offer this option and just forced sncf connections on you. Is this a symptom that stuff like this has been a problem in the past? If that's the case then possibly eurostar knows about this and perhaps the function is intended to reduce liability?

We got the distinct impression that had we booked the second leg with sncf directly that we would have had a much easier experienced. We might have been able to use the app to rebook before arriving at montparnasse, paid the same fare, had an easier time dealing with the sncf staff and still had hotnat protection. Buying from eurostar feels like going to a travel agent and waiting atol rights. Didn't these tickets used to have civ protection, which is stronger than hotnat?

In terms of the metro and time allowances...

If I've observed anything about human behaviour it is that when stuff starts to go wrong it tends to follow that rational thinking kind of collapses, especially if there is a perception of danger or other loss. The way that gare du nord was being managed was just making the problem worse.

We were quite surprised at just how bad the metro were at handing the massive underground crowds and the lack of staff at the gatelines. You would thing that for such a major international rail hub that it would have been better.

There were people up on the concourse directing passengers into the metro and then after the gatelines staff shouting 'sortie'. People were climbing over barriers and through luggage holes to escape, escalators had been stopped and people were walking both ways along them. Chaos.

This isn't 'normal' for paris is it??

 

[signed]

This isn't 'normal' for paris is it??

The main issue you encountered is that the RER B and D (and C and D) core shut for 3 weeks so they have to fit 1000+ people 8 cars mainline sets into tiny 6 cars metros on top of existing metro users and that’s the only time where they can do it due to lower ridership (as France don’t follow the close everything routine over Christmas in the UK)

The situation from anectodal has been absolute bollocks during work hours

 

[speedy1]

The main issue you encountered is that the RER B core shut for 3 weeks ...

Knowing this now, I think the OP has a good reason to be annoyed with Eurostar

Eurostar should have known about the RER B closure and either adjusted the connection time or contacted them and suggested an alternative allowing more time.

Also, their marketing at https://www.eurostar.com/uk-en/travel-info/connecting-train/sncf also says:

"Our train schedules are designed to give you the best possible connection times,"

and

"Worried about missing your connection? We're part of the HOTNAT and AJC agreements with other train companies - so if you're delayed, you can catch the next available train for free."

(I don't think the average customer should know what HOTNAT and AJC stand for - there is no definition on the page and no link to a definition, so someone would probably read that as "Worried about missing your connection? ... if you're delayed, you can catch the next available train for free")

That seems to be material information that someone would rely on?

However, Eurostar customer service is notoriously subpar, so good luck with that.

If OP is however seeking a pragmatic solution to reimbursing the extra money spent, it might be useful to know exactly which tickets were held in case there is another angle directly with SNCF (perhaps the ticket terms actually allowed a free change, or something deep buried in SNCF T&Cs...), but OP doesn't seem willing to impart with such information, so I wish them good luck with the fight with Eurostar/small claims court.

 

[grinderx]

The French tickets are marked standard seconde jr11.

It says from 30 minutes before departure can exchange. Sncf didnt, which implies that this doesnt apply after the train departs.

However, how this is done for tickets sold via eurostar isn't clear. Indeed was there any realistic chance of sorting this out at say gare du nord once we'd realised we were in trouble?

I don't expect we'll be successful with this. I'd really encourage people not to book through tickets with eurostar. There seems to be absolutely no positive benefit at all. The only reason we still like eurostar is because it is more eco than flying. We don't like the company at all.

Some years ago we had to make our own international arrangements when eurostar shut for the day. We had booked directly with sncf for the French portion and were able to cancel those tickets online without involving eurostar. It was really easy.

It's a real shame the ice3m trainsets up for sale can't be converted for use through the tunnel to give us another option than flying.

Thanks all for the thoughts.

 

[ainsworth74]

We don't like the company at all.

Fingers crossed in a few years they'll be having some competition as Virgin Trains have recently won access rights on the UK side of the Channel Tunnel for access to HS1 and St Pancras. Still need to sort everything out on the French side but it's a positive step. Eurostar are a company in dire need of competition as they seem to have a very backwards view of customer service (which is not a slight against their staff, on the train I've never had anything but positive interactions!).

We had booked directly with sncf for the French portion and were able to cancel those tickets online without involving eurostar. It was really easy.

Agreed I've not booked that many tickets with SNCF but I was very impressed with both the booking process and the ease of making changes. I actually booked a ticket for the right train wrong day and was able to amend the ticket for no fee and got the difference in fare back (as the correct date was cheaper). Unimaginable in the UK... Definitely think in general there is zero point in through booking with Eurostar really.

 

[rvdborgt]

Tariff standard seconde jr11 can be exchanged once from 30 minutes before departure, with a €19 fee (I suppose per person). So the question is whether indeed this exchange was done, or whether a completely new ticket was sold.

 

[grinderx]

After waiting 40 minutes, they refused to do anything having checked that the eurostar wasn't delayed (we think it may have been very slightly, but no doubt they have a 5 minute grace or something). So we were told to goto the machine and buy new ones.

With some irony we were given basically no information but then had to provide our names, dates of birth and phone number to get printed tickets. Not at all stressful when you've got a train to catch

If we get a resolution I will post an update.

I really hope that we don't do anything like this in the uk to our domestic trains. One of the great things about br is that you can just turn up and go.

 

[speedy1]

Tariff standard seconde jr11 can be exchanged once from 30 minutes before departure, with a €19 fee (I suppose per person)

To me, the wording seems ambiguous:

"Ticket may be exchanged (with adjustment to the current fare) or refunded free of charge up to D-7. From D-6 and up to departure: €19 charge on TGV and 40% of the price (max €15) on Intercités. From 30 minutes before departure, ticket may be exchanged once and not refunded thereafter"

I could interpret that as: from T-30 to any time in the future, the ticket may be exchanged but IANAL or good at legalese. Does "and not refunded thereafter" refer to just refunds? Does "thereafter" explicitly refer to "departure"?

 

[signed]

To me, the wording seems ambiguous:

"Ticket may be exchanged (with adjustment to the current fare) or refunded free of charge up to D-7. From D-6 and up to departure: €19 charge on TGV and 40% of the price (max €15) on Intercités. From 30 minutes before departure, ticket may be exchanged once and not refunded thereafter"

I could interpret that as: from T-30 to any time in the future, the ticket may be exchanged but IANAL or good at legalese. Does "and not refunded thereafter" refer to just refunds? Does "thereafter" explicitly refer to "departure"?

This is meant to prevent people flopping their tickets if they think they're going to miss the train

The rule is > 30min: refund and exchange for 19€ fee per ticket
< 30min: You can refund for 19€ fee but only if the ticket hasn't been exchanged in that period. And you can only exchange once

 

[speedy1]

This is meant to prevent people flopping their tickets if they think they're going to miss the train

The rule is > 30min: refund and exchange for 19€ fee per ticket
< 30min: You can refund for 19€ fee but only if the ticket hasn't been exchanged in that period. And you can only exchange once

With respect, that doesn't address my post

 

[rvdborgt]

To me, the wording seems ambiguous:

"Ticket may be exchanged (with adjustment to the current fare) or refunded free of charge up to D-7. From D-6 and up to departure: €19 charge on TGV and 40% of the price (max €15) on Intercités. From 30 minutes before departure, ticket may be exchanged once and not refunded thereafter"

I could interpret that as: from T-30 to any time in the future, the ticket may be exchanged but IANAL or good at legalese. Does "and not refunded thereafter" refer to just refunds? Does "thereafter" explicitly refer to "departure"?

Good point. If you can't get a refund anymore from 30 minutes before departure, then "thereafter" is superfluous, so it looks like it refers to "exchanged". Maybe the French original is clearer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2026 ==

After waiting 40 minutes, they refused to do anything having checked that the eurostar wasn't delayed (we think it may have been very slightly, but no doubt they have a 5 minute grace or something). So we were told to goto the machine and buy new ones.

So it wasn't an exchange. It may have been possible to do an exchange on the SNCF ticket machine. You can e.g. also exchange tickets and reservations that way if you bought them from Rail Europe.