Greater Anglia Ticket Irregularity - TfL Staff Pass

[tomato41]

Hi all,

I wonder whether you would be able to advise me on a situation I find (or rather put) myself in. I have received a letter from Greater Anglia regarding some "ticket irregularities". I had already reviewed some similar posts on this subject, albeit they are slightly different so I thought it best to ask the questions about my specific case. I did however join a union the day I was pulled by the inspectors, on the advice seen on similar threads.

The facts are as follows:
- I have been travelling from Essex to Stratford on Greater Anglia Services for ~10 months, using 28 day Flexi-passes, of which I have purchased 7.
- The passes were between my home station and Shenfield
- I then (incorrectly) understood that I was able to travel between Shenfield and Stratford using my TfL Staff Pass (I am the Staff member, not a nominee just for clarity). The GA T&C's / FAQ section states that Oyster Card can be used between these stations, and I (naively) did not check that there was a difference between these and a Staff Oyster Card. Upon reviewing the staff pass T&C's it is clear I was under the wrong impression. I lived within London for my first 2.5 years at TfL so hadn't had to pay much mind to other TOC's as I used LU/EL services exclusively. Either way though, I'm painfully aware that this is entirely my fault for being ignorant to the T&C's of my staff pass, and I am prepared to accept the consequences of my actions, albeit not willing to be fleeced with an inflated figure.
- I have received a letter from Greater Anglia / ITAL that calculates I owe £2500 in fares and then £175 in investigation fees. I am assuming they have taken the cost of a day return on the relevant route and multiplied it by the number of passes I had available to me to reach this figure as the full price of 7 x 28-day flexi-passes would be c.£1400.
- I have not used more than 60% of the individual passes across all 7 flexi tickets (Albeit this is off the top of my head and I was considering seeking this information from GA under a separate request)
- The inspector did not take my Staff Pass from me despite the fact that he "really should do so", so I do not anticipate any major waves at work, although I have joined the union and plan to reach out to my rep today alongside advice from the good people of Rail UK Forums.

So I suppose my questions are:

- Is it worth asking for their evidence and breakdown of costs to ascertain the specifics?
- Is it also worth asking GA separately for the breakdown of how many flexi tickets I have used under each pass to compare the two calculations?
- Could I reasonably request, following receipt of that information that the return ticket calculation is applied only to the number of flexi passes that I used?
- The letter is dated the 12th August, with a deadline for payment of 14 days from then, however I only received this letter today (19th Aug). If I contact them with some/all of the above to confirm the breakdown etc, does this pause the clock on the 14 day deadline or am I on the clock here?
- At this value is legal advice likely to be worth the money?


Thanks in advance for any advice. I have attached a photo of the letter minus personal details.

Many thanks,

 

[saismee]

I can't answer most of this, but

The letter is dated the 12th August, with a deadline for payment of 14 days from then, however I only received this letter today (19th Aug). If I contact them with some/all of the above to confirm the breakdown etc, does this pause the clock on the 14 day deadline or am I on the clock here?

As it is a settlement offer, you have no legal right to appeal their decision, and there are no strict rules on how long they must give you to pay.

It does seem that this has caught out multiple people out now, and it's still unclear why there isn't a reciprocal travel benefit for the EL/metro and GA/main line services. GA staff had their metro validity taken away when it moved to TfL Rail.

 

[Undiscovered]

Personally, I would consult your union rep immediately, give them the full information on your situation, and take their advice. That is, assuming you joined the union *before* the incident occurred, not just on recieving the paperwork. Otherwise, you might be without suitable advice.

To me, I would pay up the full amount, asap. It may seem a lot, but misuse of staff passes is one of the very few things that will cost you your job.

 

[30907]

As you say, GA are taking the Anytime fare.
If you can evidence that you made fewer journeys than they imdicate, you can do so - evidence on this forum is that train companies are amenable to being corrected.

 

[furlong]

They absolutely should have included their calculation in the letter. It is quite wrong for them to claim they have done an in-depth investigation yet not to have provided you with any breakdown of the random figure they are asking for! They are also oddly defensive about their investigation fee suggesting they realise they shouldn't really be asking for it in this way but hope you'll just pay it anyway!

The question they should address in law is: If you hadn't made the mistake, how much extra would you have paid? They have no entitlement to make any profit from the exercise but courts would usually let them recover actual marginal costs of dealing with you. (Normally this would exclude the cost of staff they have to employ anyway, like the inspectors on the trains and stations, but may include the time of back office staff dealing with your case.)

You can argue this extra ticket cost should be calculated like-for-like as that's most likely how a normal person would have behaved e.g. the difference calculated based on the same tickets as you actually purchased but for the correct distance that fills the gap. New like-for-like tickets to fill the gap is also justifiable in my opinion.

If they try to insist you pay separate anytime fares to fill the gap that of course would only apply for the days you actually travelled as they have no loss on the days you did not. (Other indirect evidence that confirms the days without drawing attention to who your employer is might be useful e.g. if a credit card statement would show a regular transaction near your place of work or near your home confirming the days you did or did not travel.) The argument for using anytime fares for the day you were stopped is stronger than any argument to apply this method retrospectively over the time period involved.

After first asking for and receiving the details of their calculation, you could offer your own calculation and try to negotiate, either yourself or by employing a solicitor. We have seen cases involving GA where the original figure requested gets reduced substantially. You may have to push to make sure GA actually reviews it if ITAL stonewalls you. Anytime fares for the gap only on the days you travelled plus investigation fee ought to be achievable with any reduction beyond that a bonus. But any additional saving achieved by employing a solicitor may be more than wiped out by their fee.

 

[WesternLancer]

The OP has probably seen them on other similar GA / TfL staff threads* as it looks like @tomato41 has done their homework - those experts have not fed in to this as yet

I'm not staff but I think the issue here is the trade off between pushing back on the sum demanded by GA / ITAL(?) vs the consequences of too much further spotlight being shed on this when you are an employee and errors with staff travel facilities can have very significant negative effects on your employment (AIUI up to and including dismissal) - so worst case scenario it would be a pyrrhic victory to get the sum demanded reduced by a few hundred or even £k - but end up with negative employment consequences that would cost more than that income wise....

If this was a non staff issue and it was a member of the public then we would always recommend on here asking for a breakdown of the sums involved and the travel and advise people to push back when fares were listed for travel that was not undertaken.

But in those cases the worst that can happen if that push back does not work is court action for a relatively minor offence, for most people (if you had a sensitive job and it would be career limiting for it to go o court then we would probably advice it being worth paying a solicitor) - but either of those things could result in different scenarios for a member of staff in the rail industry it seems to me - eg disciplinary / withdrawal of travel facilities / employment sanctions of another nature / worst case possibly dismissal (I don't know if that is realistic or not)

I would hope a friendly union rep - even if the OP has only just joined union as a result of what has happened - would give some indication / advice on whether pushing back to GA is wise or not

I think this is the trade off @tomato41 needs to weigh up.

Edit
This thread came to my mind for example and comments from for example @bluegoblin7 in post #32

Greater Anglia / ITAL £12k demand after Staff Oyster boundary issue

GA should have reported the staff travel irregularity anyway, if they haven't, it's a bit weird.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Daniel]

although I have joined the union and plan to reach out to my rep today

Were you a member of the trade union before you needed their assistance or did you join afterwards?

The lack of validity of the TfL Staff Pass here is very explicit on the materials given when the pass is issued and on the company intranet, (plus other documents such as the traffic circular).

You're being offered to settle this, as expensive as it is, it seems without risking your employment. Most would jump at the chance.

 

[tomato41]

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses.

I spoke with two of my union reps, who are both TfL employees and their advice was to seek the breakdown of costs to determine how this figure was arrived at. Their point was that ITAL can’t reasonably call it an “in-depth” investigation and provide no detail to back that up. I submitted this request to ITAL yesterday via email.

I called the number on the letter today to follow up on my email request to ensure it has been received and was told they are collating the info at the moment.

In terms of the TfL repercussions, the union reps believed it highly unlikely this would be anything close to gross misconduct, and at worst I can expect a conversation around the T&C’s of the pass and a bit of a slap on the wrist. In their words - I’m not the first to fall foul of this particular situation and I’m unlikely to be the last. I also spoke to my line manager, whom I have a good relationship with, to give her a heads up in case anyone gets in touch with her about this. She was also very reassuring and ready to support in any way she can if and when HR or others get in touch about this.

I will see what ITAL come back with in terms of a breakdown and will consider whether some legal advice is viable given the costs involved. As some of you have stated, if a solicitor brings the cost down by £1k but I spent that much on their services I’m no better or worse off than having just paid the fee in the letter.

P.S. - For those that asked - I joined the union the day I was pulled by the GA inspector in anticipation of the letter, but received no questions from the union reps on this, they just needed my membership no before giving advice.

Thanks again, and I’ll be sure to drop an update here when I have one.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses.

I spoke with two of my union reps, who are both TfL employees and their advice was to seek the breakdown of costs to determine how this figure was arrived at. Their point was that ITAL can’t reasonably call it an “in-depth” investigation and provide no detail to back that up. I submitted this request to ITAL yesterday via email.

I called the number on the letter today to follow up on my email request to ensure it has been received and was told they are collating the info at the moment.

In terms of the TfL repercussions, the union reps believed it highly unlikely this would be anything close to gross misconduct, and at worst I can expect a conversation around the T&C’s of the pass and a bit of a slap on the wrist. In their words - I’m not the first to fall foul of this particular situation and I’m unlikely to be the last. I also spoke to my line manager, whom I have a good relationship with, to give her a heads up in case anyone gets in touch with her about this. She was also very reassuring and ready to support in any way she can if and when HR or others get in touch about this.

I will see what ITAL come back with in terms of a breakdown and will consider whether some legal advice is viable given the costs involved. As some of you have stated, if a solicitor brings the cost down by £1k but I spent that much on their services I’m no better or worse off than having just paid the fee in the letter.

P.S. - For those that asked - I joined the union the day I was pulled by the GA inspector in anticipation of the letter, but received no questions from the union reps on this, they just needed my membership no before giving advice.

Thanks again, and I’ll be sure to drop an update here when I have one.

Thanks for update - hopefully it will progress as you have outlined based on the advice you have had there - strikes me you have been talking to the right people work wise.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses.

I spoke with two of my union reps, who are both TfL employees and their advice was to seek the breakdown of costs to determine how this figure was arrived at. Their point was that ITAL can’t reasonably call it an “in-depth” investigation and provide no detail to back that up. I submitted this request to ITAL yesterday via email.

I called the number on the letter today to follow up on my email request to ensure it has been received and was told they are collating the info at the moment.

In terms of the TfL repercussions, the union reps believed it highly unlikely this would be anything close to gross misconduct, and at worst I can expect a conversation around the T&C’s of the pass and a bit of a slap on the wrist. In their words - I’m not the first to fall foul of this particular situation and I’m unlikely to be the last. I also spoke to my line manager, whom I have a good relationship with, to give her a heads up in case anyone gets in touch with her about this. She was also very reassuring and ready to support in any way she can if and when HR or others get in touch about this.

I will see what ITAL come back with in terms of a breakdown and will consider whether some legal advice is viable given the costs involved. As some of you have stated, if a solicitor brings the cost down by £1k but I spent that much on their services I’m no better or worse off than having just paid the fee in the letter.

P.S. - For those that asked - I joined the union the day I was pulled by the GA inspector in anticipation of the letter, but received no questions from the union reps on this, they just needed my membership no before giving advice.

Thanks again, and I’ll be sure to drop an update here when I have one.

Former/future union rep here for LU. I see my previous comments on this have been linked and I hope you read them. I was involved in a similar case when I was a rep a few years ago.

The best advise I can give is pay what they’re asking. Don’t haggle, don’t ask for a breakdown. If the offer is rescinded it will escalate, it will get shared with TfL and you will almost certainly, at minimum, permanently lose staff travel facilities. I don’t know which TU you’ve joined but I would strongly disagree with the advice given. Given explicit mention of TfL I would expect not RMT, anyway.

I appreciate that this is at odds with conversations you’ve had, but this is the current reality: staff travel misuse is a huge hot issue at the moment, with an article prominently on the Intranet over the last few weeks. The staff pass has never been valid beyond Stratford on non-TfL services, and you will have received a document stating such when you got issued your pass.

I agree it is unlikely to progress to gross misconduct at the moment, but that doesn’t mean that it won’t trigger an investigation resulting in the withdrawal of facilities. If it goes to court and you get a criminal record (the reality if you do not settle) then the picture changes significantly.

The best you can do is make this go away as quickly and quietly as possible, and stick to the rules in future.

Finally - if you’ve joined the union after a mess up, fine. It’s unethical, but you’re not the first and won’t be the last. But if you’re taking advice and time from your reps, return the favour and both remain in the union going forwards and encourage your colleagues to join too. Strength in unity.

 

[philthetube]

A saving of a percentage of £2500 against other possible consequences, no brainer really, pay up and be grateful for the opportunity.

 

[Swedenorer]

The advice in Post 10 is excellent - you have been offered a chance to keep a job with nothing on your employers paperwork. I agree they should have sent you a breakdown but there are times when simply paying up and shutting up is the best course. And in future read every bit of employment or indeed official paperwork I had a hard lesson though not to my cost happily 48 years ago through not doing so. Take note also of the remark on union membership - you were lucky there. When I was a member of a union, not railway, it was quite clear they would not deal with any pre-existing issues. Sometimes they indeed would not.

 

[AlterEgo]

In fairness if you do not know the vagaries of TfL's staff travel facilities and how that interfaces with people's employment contracts it might be best not to give people advice on serious matters which could ultimately cost them their job. With respect you don't even seem to know who manages TfL's staff travel which ought to fundamentally undermine any advice you give.

@bluegoblin7 has credentials which would indicate they have substantial and unique experience and it might be better to heed their advice.

 

[bluegoblin7]

If any member of TfL or LUL staff who finds themselves in this position and is an RMT member they are more than welcome to contact me directly, off forum as I am in a position to assist as part of my day job

There are still two elements here, the actual fare evasion and the impact it might have on employment and/or staff travel facilities. I am not at all an expert on the former, but as @AlterEgo suggests I do have experience on the latter. What that experience has also told me is that there are times when the consequences and the monetary amount make wiggle room and pedantic arguments extremely worthwhile. My honest opinion here is that this is not the case - make it go away as quickly and quietly as possible.

Anyway - I've said everything I feel adds anything to this at the moment. It would be interesting to hear back from @tomato41 on any updates.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The advice in Post 10 is excellent - you have been offered a chance to keep a job with nothing on your employers paperwork. I agree they should have sent you a breakdown but there are times when simply paying up and shutting up is the best course. And in future read every bit of employment or indeed official paperwork I had a hard lesson though not to my cost happily 48 years ago through not doing so. Take note also of the remark on union membership - you were lucky there. When I was a member of a union, not railway, it was quite clear they would not deal with any pre-existing issues. Sometimes they indeed would not.

Slightly off-topic, but a former colleague of mine in a different industry who was critical of local reps and remained outside the union found himself in a situation that could have led to his dismissal. He approached a rep about joining the union, with a view to being represented.
The reply? ‘Sure. Just as long as you make a contribution equal to the weekly subs you would have paid since you first started the job…’