Trainline to be investigated for not including fees in prices

[Snow1964]

Government and Competition and Markets Authority are opening investigation into Trainline, Virgin Atlantic and RED driving school for not including fees in upfront prices

The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) has launched 3 new consumer protection investigations into firms over concerns that customers were not shown the total price upfront when buying train and coach tickets, holidays or driving lessons.

The investigations are part of a wider CMA clampdown on misleading pricing practices, including where mandatory charges are separated from the headline price – or added later in the buying process, known as drip pricing. These practices leave consumers facing unexpected costs or having to calculate the true cost themselves.

Such practices can also impact competition between businesses, as a firm using drip pricing may falsely appear to be cheaper than a competitor and attract more customers.

CMA concerns​

• Trainline: being investigated over whether all mandatory fees have been included in the upfront prices displayed to consumers buying train and coach tickets in advance on the Trainline app and website. For train travel, the CMA observed transactions with fees ranging from £0.59 to £2.79. For coach bookings, it was a £1.50 booking fee. Both are costs that can add up for frequent travellers.

Trainline, Virgin Atlantic and RED Driving School investigated for drip pricing

Investigations into online pricing practices are part of CMA’s work to help ease cost of living pressures.

www.gov.uk

 

[Djgr]

Well well, everyone's poster boy...

 

[WillC]

Trainline is dreadful, the app’s become like so many - full of extraneous rubbish (e.g. opt in hotel bookings) and general noise. And charges. And if you get into a complaint re. A ticket refund say, you have to deal with them as an intermediary which just adds pain. I’ve stopped using it.

 

[AlterEgo]

A ticket refund say, you have to deal with them as an intermediary which just adds pain. I’ve stopped using it.

Same with any retailer including TOC ones. They are all intermediaries.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That practice is common across so many booking platforms even for my local small theatre which largely puts on amateur productions when you get to checkout they ad a £1.00 booking fee to the price.

 

[styles]

There's really no excuse for this drip pricing any more. There's been so much publicity about similar cases and anyone responsible for this in a retail outlet as large as Trainline knows full well that the full price including any fees should be presented at the first opportunity.

On their website it is. But on their mobile app, you select your fares first then on the second screen it adds the booking fee, which they must know isn't allowed.

 

[sprunt]

That practice is common across so many booking platforms even for my local small theatre which largely puts on amateur productions when you get to checkout they ad a £1.00 booking fee to the price.

£1.00 per ticket, or as a transaction charge? I think per ticket fees have to be included in the cost per ticket displayed initially, but a single transaction fee can be shown in the final summary before payment.

 

[WillC]

Same with any retailer including TOC ones. They are all intermediaries.

I didn't know that. What I do know if that if you get into a complaint re. a ticket refund, having another company in the middle doesn't help. Even simple Delay Repay or Cancellation refunds are much simpler when booking direct, e.g. with LNER. Trainline is just yet another example of 'en****tification'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't know that. What I do know if that if you get into a complaint re. a ticket refund, having another company in the middle doesn't help. Even simple Delay Repay or Cancellation refunds are much simpler when booking direct, e.g. with LNER. Trainline is just yet another example of 'en****tification'.

Delay Repay is claimed from the TOC, thus it is utterly irrelevant which retailer you use. I have never had an issue with a disruption refund from Trainline, and they charge lower fees for refunds by choice than most.

Remember some TOC sites are Trainline under contract.

 

[WillC]

Delay Repay is claimed from the TOC, thus it is utterly irrelevant which retailer you use. I have never had an issue with a disruption refund from Trainline, and they charge lower fees for refunds by choice than most.

Remember some TOC sites are Trainline under contract.

Yes, so if you book from LNER, and have to claim back from LNER it is simpler than going via an intermediary - that's my point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, so if you book from LNER, and have to claim back from LNER it is simpler than going via an intermediary - that's my point.

If one-click DR applies then yes (which it only does to non-split Advances). If you have to key it (as you've used a flexible ticket or a split) then it's no different.

On the LNER fare increase trial routes if you don't split you will often be paying well over the odds. You can of course avoid fees by buying the elements of the split separately, but then you have to key the DR as if you bought it anywhere else.

 

[tutacre]

Yes, so if you book from LNER, and have to claim back from LNER it is simpler than going via an intermediary - that's my point.

Even if you book through a train operator, the vast majority outsource their ticket refunds / sales teams, either to the likes of Trainline or call centres they contract in. LNER is a notable exception to that rule.

 

[35B]

That practice is common across so many booking platforms even for my local small theatre which largely puts on amateur productions when you get to checkout they ad a £1.00 booking fee to the price.

That particular thing (also a bugbear of mine) is a separate issue from "drip pricing". It's a surprisingly complicated area, especially for organisations that aren't VAT registered.

 

[Foxcover]

The worst one for me is the “get your money back” offer that often appears at the end of the booking/journey process (and others, including National Railcard). It’s far from immediately obvious that you’re leaving Trainline and dealing with a completely separate company, still less that by claiming the supposed saving you may actually be signing up for a £15–£30-a-month subscription to some rather questionable discount/voucher scheme.

And, unsurprisingly, getting out of those subscriptions — or challenging charges you didn’t realise you’d agreed to — isn’t always exactly friction-free. Whatever the legal small print says, the whole thing feels designed to benefit from people assuming it’s simply part of the Trainline transaction they’ve just completed.

 

[Broucek]

Good.

I've always felt that state-supervised capitalism is the least bad way to run an economy. But the influence of the tech companies and many PE owners has started to break the symbiotic relationship between companies and clients (and workers) and it feels like there are some VERY cynical practices about

This probably means more regulation - often a sub-optimal approach but probably necessary in the modern age

 

[styles]

The worst one for me is the “get your money back” offer that often appears at the end of the booking/journey process (and others, including National Railcard). It’s far from immediately obvious that you’re leaving Trainline and dealing with a completely separate company, still less that by claiming the supposed saving you may actually be signing up for a £15–£30-a-month subscription to some rather questionable discount/voucher scheme.

And, unsurprisingly, getting out of those subscriptions — or challenging charges you didn’t realise you’d agreed to — isn’t always exactly friction-free. Whatever the legal small print says, the whole thing feels designed to benefit from people assuming it’s simply part of the Trainline transaction they’ve just completed.

Ah yes, Complete Savings (also white labelled as NX Rewards for National Express website).

It looks like a total scam of a website. Flashy popup, arbitrary and large cashback amount, and a subscription model.

However, it is actually by far the best cashback site I've known. Every retailer is minimum 10% cashback, including supermarkets for our weekly food shops. We'd make the monthly fee back on food shops alone. But you actually don't need to - when you signup through say the Transport for Wales, Trainline, Dominos, etc website, this becomes your 'monthly bonus' retailer. As long as you make one purchase a month from that retailer, the monthly fee is waived. So you can go back to the TfW website and buy a single from say St Ives to Carbis Bay (£1.10), the monthly fee is waived. If you normally spend £100/week at Tesco or Asda, you'll save £43/month with the cashback site.

It's a bit like credit cards where you're benefitting from people not paying their balance off in full each month, with Complete Savings you're benefitting from the people not claiming their monthly bonus.

As for cancelling, I cancelled Complete Savings completely friction-free a few years back. I signed up again via NX Rewards a couple of years later as I was buying a load of DIY stuff and it was saving a fortune, then the weekly food shop, then 12% off the Emirates flights, etc. I've saved a couple of grand in as many years.

 

[yorkie]

Government and Competition and Markets Authority are opening investigation into Trainline, Virgin Atlantic and RED driving school for not including fees in upfront prices

Trainline, Virgin Atlantic and RED Driving School investigated for drip pricing

Investigations into online pricing practices are part of CMA’s work to help ease cost of living pressures.

www.gov.uk

I wonder who will be next? I hope Seatfrog; if I was involved with Seatfrog, I'd be very worried right now!

I've got loads of evidence against Seatfrog, and I know others have too.

Trainline is dreadful, the app’s become like so many - full of extraneous rubbish (e.g. opt in hotel bookings) and general noise. And charges.

All true; I used to use the Trainline app purely for "on the day" e-ticket purchases where I wanted an "open return" option; but once Trainsplit / forum site started offering it, I uninstalled it.

Does the app also try to open links to Booking.com, or just the site these days? The app didn't do it when I last used it.

And if you get into a complaint re. A ticket refund say, you have to deal with them as an intermediary which just adds pain. I’ve stopped using it.

There is no "intermediary" for refunds; if it's a refund due to not having travelled, then it's always from just the retailer. If it's compensation, then the retailer is contacted directly.

As for it being a pain; I understand Trainline support requires you to go through AI chatbots first, and then the issue would be looked at by an outsourced, offshore contact centre. This is in contrast with Trainsplit / forum site, which uses UK staff (several of whom are on this forum, so know their stuff!), however if you go direct with a TOC, you may find it is no different to going through Trainline, as Trainline in fact powers several TOC sites.

No TOCs directly retail tickets on their websites; the websites are merely branded by the TOCs but the actual functionality is outsourced to third parties.

Yes, so if you book from LNER, and have to claim back from LNER it is simpler than going via an intermediary - that's my point.

You are referring to Delay Repay claims? Maybe slightly, but only if the entire journey is on LNER. Many people travel on a range of different operators. Booking directly with companies like LNER also incurs additional costs, as they charge premiums for many longer distance journeys, compared to the cost of shorter/intermediate journeys, and their site no longer tells anyone of any cheaper splits. LNER deliberately removed that functionality as it was saving people too much money, and was undermining their new pricing strategies.

 

[hwl]

I wonder who will be next? I hope Seatfrog; if I was involved with Seatfrog, I'd be very worried right now!

There is a wonderful French phrase for this situation "pour encourager les autres", they have long history of just making a visible example that is close enough to others that the others then do the right thing on their own with out further prodding. (Then there is also a suitable casestudy if they don't).

Several (all sector) consumer organisations have been looking at these tactics for a while.

GBR could ride in on a metaphorical white horse and save the day with a well executed ticketing portal that works across all operators but given RDG's past performance with everything NRE and their previous attempted being can'ed nearly 3 years ago the probability of successful delivery on that promise would be low.

If the CMA investigation is "successful" there will be lots of letters as the consumer organisations already have huge list of example (and are looking for more) that the CMA will have been given.

 

[35B]

There is a wonderful French phrase for this situation "pour encourager les autres", they have long history of just making a visible example that is close enough to others that the others then do the right thing on their own with out further prodding. (Then there is also a suitable casestudy if they don't).

That wonderful French phrase actually originated from the court martial and execution of Admiral Byng in 1757 for not being aggressive enough against the French fleet... It is questionable whether it achieved the effect intended in the Royal Navy.

Several (all sector) consumer organisations have been looking at these tactics for a while.

GBR could ride in on a metaphorical white horse and save the day with a well executed ticketing portal that works across all operators but given RDG's past performance with everything NRE and their previous attempted being can'ed nearly 3 years ago the probability of successful delivery on that promise would be low.

If the CMA investigation is "successful" there will be lots of letters as the consumer organisations already have huge list of example (and are looking for more) that the CMA will have been given.

The key point here will not be to go after everyone that has been delinquent, but to drive change so that they aren't tempted to keep doing this in future.

 

[Snow1964]

The key point here will not be to go after everyone that has been delinquent, but to drive change so that they aren't tempted to keep doing this in future.

Thats the way CMA operates, investigation into high profile company, lots of PR, company agreeing to change and apology.

Then a strong letter to others that they had complaints about threatening investigation, fines etc. Causing them to make changes to comply, but without having to do detailed investigations.

 

[edwin_m]

That wonderful French phrase actually originated from the court martial and execution of Admiral Byng in 1757 for not being aggressive enough against the French fleet... It is questionable whether it achieved the effect intended in the Royal Navy.

A quick search suggests it was used by Voltaire about this event, not something that was said at the trial itself. Which explains why it's in French.

 

[35B]

A quick search suggests it was used by Voltaire about this event, not something that was said at the trial itself. Which explains why it's in French.

Precisely what I was trying to say briefly. Too briefly!

 

[thedbdiboy]

GBR could ride in on a metaphorical white horse and save the day with a well executed ticketing portal that works across all operators but given RDG's past performance with everything NRE and their previous attempted being can'ed nearly 3 years ago the probability of successful delivery on that promise would be low.

GBR procurement and RDG are very different processes. RDG was (is) ATOC and managed/answerable to TOCs, whereas GBR is DfTO/DfT led. Obviously itself no guarantee of the outcome, I'm just pointing out that it's not the same thing.

 

[cactustwirly]

Trainline is dreadful, the app’s become like so many - full of extraneous rubbish (e.g. opt in hotel bookings) and general noise. And charges. And if you get into a complaint re. A ticket refund say, you have to deal with them as an intermediary which just adds pain. I’ve stopped using it.

Personally they have by far the best app, really easy to use, built in split ticketing, Railcard integration - no need to use the buggy Railcard app etc

I use it for all on the day E-ticket purchases as they don't charge fees.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally they have by far the best app, really easy to use, built in split ticketing, Railcard integration - no need to use the buggy Railcard app etc

I use it for all on the day E-ticket purchases as they don't charge fees.

Same. I won't pay fees, but it is a nice app to use so is my app of choice for purchasing walk up tickets for immediate travel.

 

[bigmanaiq]

As a frequent trainline user, ecstatic at this. The fact theyve been able to get away with hiding the booking fees until you’re just about to pay is appalling. Horrendous company and whatever punishment they’re due has been a long time coming

 

[Sealink]

I didn't understand why people used The Trainline, and then I tried it - it is very user friendly. But I prefer Virgin Trains Ticketing if I am going to use an app.

 

[tutacre]

The fees aren't the issue - perfectly allowed to add as many fees as they like, at whatever rate they think is commercially viable. This isn't what the investigation is looking at, and potentially, the fees could end up higher if action does result to offset any remediation.

Second - it appears to me that millions of people are quite happy to pay these fees - and their app is extremely popular, well regarded and highly reviewed both in the UK and internationally. I agree, it's a nice app with a good user experience.

Third - somebody mentioned Seatfrog - I believe the rail regulator investigated them under their consumer powers and found no (or only very minor) issues for a similar thing.

This investigation seems to wholly relate to the idea that the fees are not as transparent as they should be - not that the fees are unlawful or abusive etc. It's a simple enough change to roll it into the headline fare I suspect - most passengers only compare the price of services within one app - they won't download a second non-Trainline app to see if something is cheaper, so the fees will still be paid.

Finally - like the ORR/Seatfrog situation, it is reasonable to assume that it will receive a clean bill of health with only minor remediations required, just as much as the assumption they will be found to have done something wrong.

 

[AlterEgo]

As a frequent trainline user, ecstatic at this. The fact theyve been able to get away with hiding the booking fees until you’re just about to pay is appalling. Horrendous company and whatever punishment they’re due has been a long time coming

A bit confused. Why would a frequent Trainline user - who is no doubt aware of the booking fees - be ecstatic at this? Why do you use them so frequently if this bothers you so much?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Well Trainline is my app of choice and I have had almost zero problems with them.