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Severn Valley Railway to trial commuter services

Adam Williams

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Adding the timetable for this service to the published schedule data (including adding Bewdley, Kidderminster SVR and a fixed link between the two Kidderminster stations), and adding through fares to / from Bewdley, would go a long way to making this a success, at little extra cost.

It was the failure to make the LSL Euston to Crewe (?) additional in c. 2021 appear in industry data (reservations, schedules etc.) that led to almost no-one using it.
Agree completely with this (& it was my first thought upon seeing this thread!)

Hopefully we'll see a PAF concerning it soon, I'm sure there are TPRs interested in retailing the fares provided the aspects you mention are set-up properly.
 
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Kentish RYS

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There really is only one answer, someone will have to open the box at Bewdley release the token for Kidderminster, set the signal see the train off, then lock the box back up, drive to Kidderminster, unlock then be ready to accept the train when it arrives, or have early signalmen, or women, booking on at both boxes, relieved by a late crew

Token release when boxes are open need the button being held at the other end of the section. However this section is Acceptance Lever so I dint know what it needs in term of coordinated button/lever pulling. Lines like the Ffestiniog have specifically modified token instruments with a 'remote operator' to allow one person to effectively press the button at the other end. British Rail copied this for NSTR (No Signalman Token Remote) where the signaller is not involved in actually operating the token machines, though they do authorise it by phone from the controlling Signalbox. It is a slightly odd name

Someone was doing that on another heritage railway (I won't name it at the moment) at a time of signaller shortage and was seen by a member of the Railway Inspectorate (or whatever such people are called) and there was severe censure. I think that the person concerned had to resign, not sure.

Now I don't know exactly why it's considered wrong, but the furore it caused certainly confirmed it was.

I'd assume it depends on the Railway's individual Safety Management system and Signalling arrangements. The reason that you'd get a bollocking is if the in case of emergency stuff all went through a Signaller and if they aren't contactable as they are driving (and does the signaller have a mobile, the train crew have the mobile number and does that mobile have signal). Its all your out if course situations such as accident, lineside fire or Passenger becoming ill. If the rules says Do thing X and you can't in thay situation the rail regulator of the time could be very unhappy
 

Merle Haggard

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/snip/



I'd assume it depends on the Railway's individual Safety Management system and Signalling arrangements. The reason that you'd get a bollocking is if the in case of emergency stuff all went through a Signaller and if they aren't contactable as they are driving (and does the signaller have a mobile, the train crew have the mobile number and does that mobile have signal). Its all your out if course situations such as accident, lineside fire or Passenger becoming ill. If the rules says Do thing X and you can't in thay situation the rail regulator of the time could be very unhappy

That makes sense, thanks.

Who would have thought that running a Heritage Railway would be (even) more stressful than being a B.R. Operations Manager ...
 

Kentish RYS

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That makes sense, thanks.

Who would have thought that running a Heritage Railway would be (even) more stressful than being a B.R. Operations Manager ...
True words said in jest! I have heard some say where I volunteer that you go to work to relax.

The reason I was aware of it is where I volunteer it started as a line with One Engine in steam most of the time with a token and run-round loop locked by it at each end. The Rule Book has sections on what to do if the Driver is the most senior person in case of an incident so it can be done but you need a procedure for it. Like everything it is 'simple' until you start looking into the details
 

trainmania100

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Nice idea and I hope it goes well. Maybe if it goes well it could help boost the viability of some sort of bluebell railway connection between east grinstead and Haywards heath
 

gg1

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Heading into full crayonista mode here, if the trial was a roaring success, funding was approved, and signalling issues were resolved, would it be theoretically possible to run both an all day half hourly WMT service to Bewdley (ie an extension of the current Kidderminster services) alongside a regular (not gala day) SVR timetable?
 

centraltrains

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I doubt that would stop an enormous route learning bill to do it all again to the TOC’s standard plus a bill for all the extra signage that would be found necessary.

How would've the class 150 farewell tour have been staffed, think that went up SVR iirc?
 

Kentish RYS

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How would've the class 150 farewell tour have been staffed, think that went up SVR iirc?
Without knowing the specifcs of that tour, for off trips (or short gala visits) work just the same as a diversion or a charter/special that is off of the operators notmal route (also stock visiting from other heritage lines can work the same way*). If the Driver & Guard (if required, obviously not needed if just a visiting loco) know the route (and rules if a different infrastructure owner such as Chiltern in London Underground) they operate as normal. If they dint know they have a route conductor. If the route conductor knows the traction, I think the modern rile is they drive

*A heritage loco visiting another line, especially a multi day one can be a bit more flexible, can come with just a rep to keep an eye all the way to a full crew, and who actually drives is a bit more flexible depending on the circumstances, often there will be some driving by the visiting loco's driver with a route conductor and some with the visited railways driver driving with the visiting driver instructing about traction. It depends on the railway(s)/owning group involved
 

158760

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Nice idea and I hope it goes well. Maybe if it goes well it could help boost the viability of some sort of bluebell railway connection between east grinstead and Haywards heath
The infrastructure for the SVR trial (to my knowledge) already exists - Haywards Heath to East Grinstead definitely doesn’t. The bus is a much better alternative for that journey, being cheaper, more reliable, quicker and actually serving the villages it stops at.
 

Tetragon213

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11 minutes late, signaller stuck in a traffic jam outside Kidderminster
Weirdly, I'd wager that's not even the strangest way for a train to get delayed due to a signaller not being where they were expected! In recent memory we've had a signaller trapped in a toilet at Henwick, and Gaerwen a signaller got knocked out by a BIFFA bin lid while chasing it down the road...

I can confirm that, in good traffic, it is indeed faster (and significantly so) to drive Kidderminster to Bewdley. When I had an interview, I got stuck in traffic enroute and arrived in the car park just as the train I was planning to take to Bewdley left. I drove all the way to Bewdley, and on arriving and walking to the platform, I was very surprised to see the train I missed hadn't even arrived yet!
 

peteb

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Weirdly, I'd wager that's not even the strangest way for a train to get delayed due to a signaller not being where they were expected! In recent memory we've had a signaller trapped in a toilet at Henwick, and Gaerwen a signaller got knocked out by a BIFFA bin lid while chasing it down the road...

I can confirm that, in good traffic, it is indeed faster (and significantly so) to drive Kidderminster to Bewdley. When I had an interview, I got stuck in traffic enroute and arrived in the car park just as the train I was planning to take to Bewdley left. I drove all the way to Bewdley, and on arriving and walking to the platform, I was very surprised to see the train I missed hadn't even arrived yet!
You were lucky. I've never managed, in 34 years, to drive from Kidderminster SVR station to Bewdley SVR station in under 12 minutes, keeping to legal speed limits. On a weekday morning at 0740 I'd estimate the Bewdley SVR to Kidderminster SVR journey time (or vice versa) to be 20 mins (+5/10 when schools are back). Problem is Kidderminster is a real traffic bottleneck, a legacy of having an incomplete ring road dating from the 1960s. I live less than a mile from the SVR Kidderminster station, but if I drive there at 0730am it can take 10 minutes, due to hoardes of children being dropped off to catch trains to Worcester or Hagley. Just driving up Comberton Hill to the station is a nightmare! So it's worth them trialling the Bewdley Kidderminster service.
 

overthere 2

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To say I'm pleased about this news would be an understatement as it seems finally someone somewhere has finally added two and two together and come up with four.


Harpo said:
I doubt that would stop an enormous route learning bill to do it all again to the TOC’s standard plus a bill for all the extra signage that would be found necessary.

Merle Haggard said:
Once through fares are offered would it not raise delay/repay and punctuality complications?
Presumably when selling through tickets at Bewdley arrangements would also have to be made to distribute income to the other operators involved.

As I have said on the Go-Op thread that while on one hand you can't throw Health and Safety completely out of the window and that rules and regulation's need to be followed, for example access for disabled people.

On the other hand there needs to be a bit of breathing space given to build up the momentum to do all the changes needed (with associated costs) rather than insisting they be done first which potentially could kill the whole thing even before its started

As for the various comments about signalling, if it is a success then I'm sure it would not be too difficult to automate them so from start of service till 10 and from 17.00 till end of service it is all automated but from 10.00 till 17.00 you have a bloke pulling levers so it keeps the visitors happy.





CharlieSpotted said:
Small, yes, but an attractive place to spend a few hours especially in good weather.

This might be too complicated to do at the beginning but perhaps when SVR is running and when not, using a DMU as a shuttle, maybe you could have a particular service around about lunchtime/early afternoon where people could use it as a shopper/day out service and go out/return on the commuter service because while you might get some people who use it as a way to get a cheap ride on the SVR albeit Kidderminster - Bewdley only, I think they would be out numbered by people who might want to do a morning/afternoon shop in Kidderminster or Birmingham and want to use the train also it would be then worth while putting up posters at Birmingham station's saying how about an morning/afternoon day trip to Bewdley?.




Forty29 said:
We have to remember it's only a trial and if not successfully won't go ahead. Hopefully an awareness campaign with leaflets through doors for example will take place to make as many people as possible know about the scheme, though looks like a lot of publicity already through newspapers and social media.

While there has been a decent amount of publicity, what is forgotten sometimes is: Not all people have/are glued to the internet, if by some miracle there is still a local paper not all people will buy it or pick it up even if it is free and if it was featured on the local news they may have missed it that particular day. So to guarantee everybody knows all about it then I agree there needs to be a leaflet pushed through every door in not just Bewdley but surrounding areas because you might have people who live outside Bewdley and work in Kidderminster itself or drive to Kidderminster to catch a train so could use this as a Park and Ride.

I don't know how expensive it would be to print leaflets but hopefully some SVR volunteers would be up for delivering them as if it works out it becomes a new revenue stream for the railway.



ox_chap said:
Would look great if the connection was advertised on the destination screens at the stations from Birmingham and for the two appropriate trains.
Agreed, a way to advertise for zero cost.





ox_chap said:
Makes you wonder if every heritage line with a mainline connection should snaffle up a class 150. Disabled accessible, mainline certified etc. House building near stations, we could see a sort of “reopen your railway” scheme reappearing but through the back door…
As I said above while this trial is better than nothing, if it works out then the aim should be to have a a TOC running all the way from the HR to the nearest town/city and the heritage railway simply sitting back and getting rent or a cut of the tickets



alistairlees said:
Adding the timetable for this service to the published schedule data (including adding Bewdley, Kidderminster SVR and a fixed link between the two Kidderminster stations), and adding through fares to / from Bewdley, would go a long way to making this a success, at little extra cost.

It was the failure to make the LSL Euston to Crewe (?) additional in c. 2021 appear in industry data (reservations, schedules etc.) that led to almost no-one using it.

That is good but we were told the same thing when Swanage did their service. I kept an eye on both the National Rail and South West Trains websites and while Corfe castle came up on the National Rail website you could never find train times or buy tickets to there or Swanage so the people behind this need to make sure that they don't make the same mistakes.

Also will you be able to buy tickets from ticket machines?
 

Kentish RYS

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As for the various comments about signalling, if it is a success then I'm sure it would not be too difficult to automate them so from start of service till 10 and from 17.00 till end of service it is all automated but from 10.00 till 17.00 you have a bloke pulling levers so it keeps the visitors happy.
It wouldn't be beyond possibility to do anything but 'automating' a lever frame isn't something you can do. A switch out is better (sort of the equivalent you can make the box 'disappear' from the signalling and leave relevant signals clear), but you'll still need one signaller (a Kidderminster signaller I'd recon as altering the mainline connection would be very expensive) in case of emergency/out of course events unless you have some other plan. You can't just recontrol heritage mechanical signalling for a few hours and then switch back. It's a bit like saying you will fit self driving to a Ford Model T
 

bluegoblin7

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It wouldn't be beyond possibility to do anything but 'automating' a lever frame isn't something you can do.
London Transport and Robert Dell disagree (although I acknowledge you're talking about a preserved 'full sized' lever frame).

(Sadly the video I wanted to upload is too large.)
 

Kentish RYS

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London Transport and Robert Dell disagree (although I acknowledge you're talking about a preserved 'full sized' lever frame).

(Sadly the video I wanted to upload is too large.)
Ate you referring to the ones operated by air/hydraulic rams? I forget the name they had as I was aware they existed but LU signalling i know little about beyond some basics. Yes I didn't include it as you'd have to remove catch handles and fill part of the box with equipment so not suitable alternative. Then where would you co trol it from as you can't leave signalling to run with no ine in case if issues, the NSTR and the similar (and older) Ffestiniog system have a controller/signaller
 

bluegoblin7

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Perfectly suitable alternative if the time/money/desire was there. Easy to control remotely from another location or remotely, be that via computer or other kind of input. The relevant (air) equipment on LU is not as large as you're making it out to be, even allowing for an increased form factor, and the lack of catch handles doesn't preclude manual operation either.

Practical? No. Possible? Absolutely.
 

Kentish RYS

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Fair enough, as I said LU is not my specialism at all. With things like catch handles I was meaning removing them would alter the heritage and current operation rather than be impossible to deal with. Anyway I think we are furiously agreeing with each other.
 

peteb

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Has anyone been able to find tickets for journeys originating or terminating at Bewdley on the national ticketing/timetable system yet? I understand the code is BEW for Bewdley, but cannot find them for sale (for the running dates, starting Tuesday 1st September).
 

kje7812

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Has anyone been able to find tickets for journeys originating or terminating at Bewdley on the national ticketing/timetable system yet? I understand the code is BEW for Bewdley, but cannot find them for sale (for the running dates, starting Tuesday 1st September).
The WMR website says coming "soon"
 

M28361M

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There are fares showing in BRFares from 1st September, but I hope the quoted fare of £9,016 for a Day Return from Bewdley to Birmingham Moor Street is incorrect!

bewdley-to-birmingham.png

(Image shows a screenshot of BRFares quoting £9,016.00 for an Anytime Day Return from BEWDLEY S.V.R. to BIRMINGHAM STNS)
 

Bletchleyite

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Now a fare of £999 (which used to be used to mean "don't sell this") isn't impossible for a very long distance first anytime, is that just a replacement for that figure with a random percentage increase incorrectly applied to it?
 

peteb

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There are fares showing in BRFares from 1st September, but I hope the quoted fare of £9,016 for a Day Return from Bewdley to Birmingham Moor Street is incorrect!

View attachment 209850

(Image shows a screenshot of BRFares quoting £9,016.00 for an Anytime Day Return from BEWDLEY S.V.R. to BIRMINGHAM STNS)
For that I'd want my own train, steam hauled too!!
 

Belperpete

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Perfectly suitable alternative if the time/money/desire was there. Easy to control remotely from another location or remotely, be that via computer or other kind of input. The relevant (air) equipment on LU is not as large as you're making it out to be, even allowing for an increased form factor, and the lack of catch handles doesn't preclude manual operation either.
You don't need to go to all that kind of complication. The signalling at Porthmadog Harbour works automatically when the frame is switched out. In unmanned mode, the signals clear automatically without the levers being pulled.

If all you are talking about is a single train coming off NR, shuttling down to Bewdley and back, and then back onto NR metals, it shouldn't be necessary to operate any points or signals on the SVR. Effectively, what you want is just a dead-end single-line without any signalling. So all you would need is a slot to the NR signalling to say that the boxes were switched out with the relevant points set and signals cleared. And something to ensure that you couldn't switch Bewdley or Kidderminster boxes back in while the shuttle move is taking place. I understand that the line between Kidderminster and Bewdley is already fully track-circited, so that is most of the battle. Set the points and signals, throw a switch on the block shelf and everything is locked for the move, and it all stays locked until you turn the switch back and the line is proved clear. How complicated is that?
 

peteb

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You don't need to go to all that kind of complication. The signalling at Porthmadog Harbour works automatically when the frame is switched out. In unmanned mode, the signals clear automatically without the levers being pulled.

If all you are talking about is a single train coming off NR, shuttling down to Bewdley and back, and then back onto NR metals, it shouldn't be necessary to operate any points or signals on the SVR. Effectively, what you want is just a dead-end single-line without any signalling. So all you would need is a slot to the NR signalling to say that the boxes were switched out with the relevant points set and signals cleared. And something to ensure that you couldn't switch Bewdley or Kidderminster boxes back in while the shuttle move is taking place. I understand that the line between Kidderminster and Bewdley is already fully track-circited, so that is most of the battle. Set the points and signals, throw a switch on the block shelf and everything is locked for the move, and it all stays locked until you turn the switch back and the line is proved clear. How complicated is that?
But this solution assumes the SVR would be willing to be locked out of their own system whilst WMR trains are using it. It might work for the early morning services but would probably cause havoc on a normal running day late afternoon/early evening.
 

AndrewE

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But this solution assumes the SVR would be willing to be locked out of their own system whilst WMR trains are using it. It might work for the early morning services but would probably cause havoc on a normal running day late afternoon/early evening.
They would/could use it for a service in the morning before the SVR start running, then resume their normal working and signal the evening train themselves... It would avoid the "cost" of extending their signal box hours.
 

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