Getting passengers to spread out along the platform

[Jim]

I find at Gatwick they can be very proactive on Platform 4 especially at trying to get people to move down during busy periods, explanations about more space at front and rear, x amount of doors on the train the works.

 

[brad465]

One long-term solution might be to spread footbridge entrances out along the whole length of the route so that even if people continue to bunch up on the platform, they are better spread out on the train itself.

Eg from Bedford to London, most of the platform entry points are in the middle of the platform. If some were at the north end, some at the south end, some in the middle, and other in-between these points, then the train loading would be evenly spread even if the people on each individual platform are not!

(Though this doesn't account for those passengers who select a carriage near to the *exit* platform, but in the case of Thameslink then central London core stations are relatively diverse in where the exit points are on the platforms)

This is the case at Abbey Wood, IIRC there are 3 footbridges between the Southeastern and Elizabeth Line platforms. Of course here the Elizabeth Line services are starting so are already in the platform usually, and passengers normally board at the nearest door to the bridge they use then walk down the train.

 

[johntea]

I've travelled a lot e.g. Wakefield Westgate / York / Doncaster and must admit I've never really paid any real attention to this 'zones' business before!

It is amusing though how the UK will queue up perfectly fine in a semi orderly fashion for a bus, a checkout, even a pint but train...forget it...trying to alight can often be like that Gauntlet round from the TV show 'Gladiators' because people are absolutely desperate to board the millisecond the doors open!

Elizabeth Line is fun for the novelty of the platform screen doors which do make you feel like you're walking into a freezer at Iceland or similar

 

[southern442]

To be honest, the bigger delay in boarding is usually passengers standing right in the centre of the doorway, blocking alighting passengers from leaving the train. And then they get annoyed if you say 'excuse me'. Even on the underground, letting people off first is a behaviour that seemed to get lost in COVID. I have very rarely heard any attempt to encourage passengers to leave a clear path recently.

I am a teacher and recently had to get a medium-sized group of kids off of the tube (by myself), which for safeguarding reasons involves counting them all off. The doors opened and a group of people were huddled around the doors without providing a clear exit route. I had a rare moment of self-confidence and loudly asked them if they could to clear a path and be patient with me whilst I quickly counted the kids off. As I was doing so some of them started to push in the gap behind me to get in! (They would have had plenty of time had they just waited as it happens)

 

[125Spotter]

Gatwick is the most extreme example I can think of

I was at Gatwick on Friday evening. The person on the platform was doing what I thought was a great job of convincing people to spread out by explaining the train would fill the full length of the platform. Compliance was broadly good.

Unfortunately for him, and me, a late platform alteration meant his efforts were all in vain, as was clear on his face when it was announced. It wasn’t even clear to me why the alteration was made as the road was clear and no other apparently conflicting services except a Southern due after we departed. But I don’t doubt that control or the signaller had their reasons.

 

[Krokodil]

The train manager gave up and switched seat reservations off for the whole trip

Those haven't worked in ages.

Or using 5 coach trains in place of what used to be a 5 coach 180 or 3 coach Turbo.

There are five coach sets being sent to Swansea.

 

[leshuttle]

The role of coach‑full indicators has some potential use here but still goes back to the same issues discussed earlier of where the train stops or passenger ignorance. Operators with reserved seats like LNER and Avanti show them on departure boards, but plenty of people still ignore them or don’t sit in their reserved seats. On commuter routes, on the few trains that have onboard coach‑fill displays, they make very little difference from what I’ve observed for the Thameslink trains that have them. Most aren’t linked to platform screens at all and often overstate how busy a coach is anyway. So even when the information exists, it doesn’t stop people bunching up at the same spot on the platform.

 

[speedy1]

To be honest, the bigger delay in boarding is usually passengers standing right in the centre of the doorway, blocking alighting passengers from leaving the train. And then they get annoyed if you say 'excuse me'. Even on the underground, letting people off first is a behaviour that seemed to get lost in COVID. I have very rarely heard any attempt to encourage passengers to leave a clear path recently.

Same. This is definitely an issue. Again, IMO, recently exacerbated by people staring at their phone and not looking at the carriage and doorway to see there's actually someone there. (p.s No need for anyone to point out this is an issue dating back to Aristotle )

Plus 'me me me' and impatience and busy services/short forms and fighting for a seat naturally.

And invariably if they do leave space, you then have to barge your way along the platform because they queue perpendicular instead of along the train. (Like people have begun doing at pubs! At my local Spoons you have to now ask people to move as they queue at the bar near the entrance, to get down the bar)

 

[800001]

The Azumas tell the driver audibly how many coaches they have as they approach each stop. Do the GWR ones not do this?

And just to clarify the Azuma for LNER repeat the train length multiple times before arrival at station.
So there really should be no need for there 5 car sets to stop at the furthest possible place down a platform away from customers.

 

[TUC]

I suspect I am not only one who would find it rather irritating if staff tried to tell passengers where to stand along the platform. There are already far too many announcements that fail to treat people as adults capable of making their own decisions,

 

[styles]

I suspect I am not only one who would find it rather irritating if staff tried to tell passengers where to stand along the platform. There are already far too many announcements that fail to treat people as adults capable of making their own decisions,

Unless for safety reasons, I don't think I've ever heard staff telling people where to stand, merely encouraging them to use the full length of the platform for trains which indeed occupy the full length of the platform.

Again though, it comes back to regular travellers vs occasional travellers at some stations. A commuter may not benefit from the announcement but less-frequent travellers may well do. If it makes the journey more comfortable for a significant number of people then I'd put it into the worthwhile pile when it comes to announcements, on a case-by-case basis as mentioned above of course.

 

[Falcon1200]

It's to mitigate again at stop short incidents, nothing to do with the monitors.

Has an increase in such incidents generated this? In my experience they are incredibly rare, although still undesirable of course.

Oxford has a particular problem with this, because first class is right next to the main barriers.

Indeed, but the announcements when a 9-car is due in are good and effective. Too many trains are only 5 cars however!

 

[NCT]

I suspect I am not only one who would find it rather irritating if staff tried to tell passengers where to stand along the platform. There are already far too many announcements that fail to treat people as adults capable of making their own decisions,

Really not sure about the bolded part.

 

[saismee]

I was at Gatwick on Friday evening. The person on the platform was doing what I thought was a great job of convincing people to spread out by explaining the train would fill the full length of the platform. Compliance was broadly good.

Unfortunately for him, and me, a late platform alteration meant his efforts were all in vain, as was clear on his face when it was announced. It wasn’t even clear to me why the alteration was made as the road was clear and no other apparently conflicting services except a Southern due after we departed. But I don’t doubt that control or the signaller had their reasons.

We had a similar case where everyone was encouraging cyclists to move to the opposite end from normal as the train was in reverse formation and had been for the past 2 days.

Cue the train rolling in correctly, followed by some running cyclists. Of course nobody had told us that the train had been spun at Crown Point the night before. The screens were just plain wrong in this case.

It wasn't a particularly busy service so most cyclists didn't bother to run and just got on where they were.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If we want people to spread out more then we need to add more information screens so they actually exist where we want people to wait, we need to stop making short notice platform alterations so people can stop feeling like they need to be by the bridges / subways to get to other platforms quickly we need to make it more obvious for people where the train will stop and we need to provide shelters and seating along the whole platform length.

 

[NCT]

Information definitely needs to be more comprehensive and of higher quality.

Beyond that, there’s no escape that humans need conditioning. The railway environment with the most successful passenger behaviour management is London Underground, where the proportion of regular passengers is probably the highest anywhere on the network. The messages are consistent and unrelenting. The most effective platform announcers are the most school teachery ones.

It’s an unfortunate fact that most people are incompetent at life and good behaviour needs perpetual conditioning.

 

[bramling]

Information definitely needs to be more comprehensive and of higher quality.

Beyond that, there’s no escape that humans need conditioning. The railway environment with the most successful passenger behaviour management is London Underground, where the proportion of regular passengers is probably the highest anywhere on the network. The messages are consistent and unrelenting. The most effective platform announcers are the most school teachery ones.

It’s an unfortunate fact that most people are incompetent at life and good behaviour needs perpetual conditioning.

Even on LU behaviour is a lot less conditioned than it was a generation ago. There remains an element of conditioning for a couple of hours on weekday morning and evening peaks, but outside of this it’s as dysfunctional as anywhere else, especially at weekends.

The most sacred of things, the “stand on the right” on escalators isn’t as solid as it once was.

 

[saismee]

Even the “stand on the right” on escalators isn’t as solid as it once was.

But it still is very solid. I am just agonised by the people who refuse to walk on the left of because I seem to always be travelling in the opposite way to them.

Big crowd using the stairs? "Sorry, I'm too impatient so I will walk on the right while staring at my phone"

 

[Bikeman78]

I do wonder if there's an issue with people a) not noticing the existence of zones (and I guess LNER is perhaps more likely than others to have large numbers of people not familiar with the system?) and attendant information on where the train stops along with b) people perhaps just don't trust the information anyway (the industry I think has quite a problem with trust when it comes to the provision of information)?

I recall an occasion when Tottenham Hale told passengers for the Stansted train to spread out along the platform. In rolled a four car! Absolute chaos. This was August 2020 during the class 379 coupling problem so most were running as single sets.

 

[ainsworth74]

The Azumas tell the driver audibly how many coaches they have as they approach each stop.

Which makes even more of a nonsense of LNERs policy of having everything stop at the far end of the platform!

I recall an occasion when Tottenham Hale told passengers for the Stansted train to spread out along the platform. In rolled a four car! Absolute chaos. This was August 2020 during the class 379 coupling problem so most were running as single sets.

And I wonder how many of those passengers trusted announcements to spread down the platform ever again!

 

[D1537]

And just to clarify the Azuma for LNER repeat the train length multiple times before arrival at station.
So there really should be no need for there 5 car sets to stop at the furthest possible place down a platform away from customers.

Which makes even more of a nonsense of LNERs policy of having everything stop at the far end of the platform!

Which actually means that at places like Northallerton there *have* to be announcements when a 5-car Azuma is approaching (especially southbound) to get everyone to move down.

Meanwhile, the Grand Central 180s stop happily in the place where everyone is actually standing.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

Personally I don't want other passengers spreading out along the platform. If they're all stood at one end, I can happily board at the other end of the train and have several seats to myself!

+1!

 

[martin butler]

THE Last time I caught the train back from Swindon, to London, I had a reservation, and the train information board even gave where abouts my coach would be when the train stopped, so rather than wait then try to fight my way along the platform I was able to walk to where the sign said my coach would be when stopped,

This might be a thing that should be further rolled out, as if you have luggage, the nearer you can board to where your seat is, the better, especially now as most TOC'S operating long distance routes do insist on reservations.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Absolutely! If they're too oblivious to think of spreading out themselves then I certainly don't see why those of us that benefit should be made to suffer

Yep. Exactly my thought too! Even at Preston, people do not seem to spread out.

 

[Kevin51]

When I was commuting into Euston before the gate line was modified there were horrendous, and incidentally dangerous, overcrowding exiting the gateline. As a consequence passengers packed the front of the train so they didn't get crushed by the mass of people coming from behind. Made worse by second train arriving depositing a second train load of people into the crush, oh and a departing Overground train so people fighting to go the other way. So boarding the back of the trains meant you had a very very long wait to get through the gateline. Didn't Peter Hendy say Euston was perfectly safe. What and idiot that guy is.

 

[Haywain]

before the gate line was modified there were horrendous, and incidentally dangerous, overcrowding exiting the gateline.

Really? Were people killed or injured, or do you just mean uncomfortable rather than dangerous?

 

[Kevin51]

Really? Were people killed or injured, or do you just mean uncomfortable rather than dangerous?

I must Google some of the crushes where people have been killed. Wasn't there a fatal crush at a Glasgow football ground. Not to mention people getting pushed off of the platform. On one day I was watching some poor woman pushing a small child in a push chair. Some people could see the apparent gap in front of her so tried to barge into it. Yes very safe, not dangerous at all. Makes you wonder why they spent huge amounts of money widening the gate line is it was so safe and not at all dangerous. 24 September 2015 Mecca Saudi Arabia, ok not Euston but over 2000 people killed in a crush. Safety is about preventing things that might happen from happening. Not being complacent and saying well nobody has been killed yet so let's do nothing.
The point was people packed the front of the train to be at the front of the queue.

 

[Haywain]

Wasn't there a fatal crush at a Glasgow football ground.

Yes, not at a station gate line.

24 September 2015 Mecca Saudi Arabia, ok not Euston but over 2000 people killed in a crush.

Also nothing to do with stations. If you take the view that a crush in Mecca makes Euston dangerous you need to read upon train crashes around the world, then you'll never have to worry about the stations because you won't go near a train.

Safety is about preventing things that might happen from happening. Not being complacent and saying well nobody has been killed yet so let's do nothing.

If people considered it to be dangerous they were not forced to be there - they could have hung back until things had cleared.

 

[Kevin51]

Yes, not at a station gate line.

Also nothing to do with stations. If you take the view that a crush in Mecca makes Euston dangerous you need to read upon train crashes around the world, then you'll never have to worry about the stations because you won't go near a train.

If people considered it to be dangerous they were not forced to be there - they could have hung back until things had cleared.

I see so what you are saying is on the railways the passengers have to take responsibility for their own safety and it is nothing to so with Network Rail or the train operator.

 

[Bantamzen]

We need to adopt the Swiss/German approach.
Proper consistent zone markings on *all* stations.
Platform displays on all stations that show the *correct* formation and zone positioning for every single train, not just those run by the TOC that manages the station
Reverse/short formation correctly entered into information systems and visible in all apps.
Ideally have the zone positioning for each station on apps as well.

Displays should show unreserved coaches, bike spaces, wheelchair spaces, buffet etc as well as just first/standard.
Even better if you can extend to show real time crowding data on all displays

This would probably be a big expensive project, but it would be a step change in passenger information.

I agree. And even though formations can be all sorts of sizes, it shouldn't be impossible to work out from the length of the unit which zones will be occupied even if the zones are designed around the longest units using the station. So displays / announcements can say something along the lines of "This service will occupy zones 1 to 4, please move to these zones to prepare to board" for example. It would take a little time for people to get used to it of course, but it would make for a slightly better experience than people huddled under the main departure boards hoping they are stood in the right place.