Getting passengers to spread out along the platform

[bramling]

On most trains outside of peak hours, passengers seem to stay fairly near the entrance to the station, meaning some doors are very busy, whereas others further away from the entrance are much less busy.

Gatwick is the most extreme example I can think of, but it seems to happen at most stations. It seems like station staff very rarely do much to change this - they sometimes say "Please use the full length of the platform", but most people don't know why they are saying this.

I've never heard station staff say "there will be much more room if you go to the front of the platform" or something similar, why is this?

I’m not sure there’s a logic to be looking for when it comes to the way people behave.

The one that I’ve never understood, and it happens so often, is you can be waiting on an empty section of platform in perfect isolation, then at the point where the train arrives someone comes pacing up and tries to barge you out the way to board through the exact same door you are going to use, when most of the rest of the platform is empty. To make it worse, they then stare at you as if you’re somehow impinging on them.

One way to teach these utter wastes of oxygen a lesson is to have a heavy backpack and pretend not to notice them, fairly easy to engineer things in such a way that they manage to slam their face straight into it.

 

[Krokodil]

So you approve of the "solution" of having every train stop at the extreme end of the platform (not referring specifically to Burnham as it's a station I'm not familiar with)?

The difference between an 8 car and a 10 car (as was originally discussed) is not all that much.

Burnham got the nickname "Burnham West" when the two and three car Turbos started pulling down to the six car mark at the far end of the platform from the underpass. This followed a number of incidents where drivers of multiple Turbos forgot that they weren't in a single set and stopped short, dropping passengers onto the ballast. Not an issue for Paddington-bound trains of course. Walking up to three coaches further is not exactly a route march.

My preferred solution? If the driver is going to be releasing doors on routes with a variety of formation and platform lengths then I would prefer that balises are provided to ensure that only the right doors get opened, regardless of where the train has stopped. Otherwise have a second pair of eyes, located towards the rear of the train. Could call them "the guard".

 

[styles]

I would suggest that there's no one fix for the whole network, owing to the different usage patterns and regular vs more casual passenger behaviours.

There will be some stations or services where it's just not an issue. There will be others where a solution has been put in place such as ECML/WCML stations having 'zones' marked which accounts for the fact that most passengers will have a seat reservations. There will be others on metro systems or on high throughput commuter services where commuters 'in the know' head to the ideal spot while more casual travellers pop onto the platform and minimally move down it.

If there's specific stations, routes, or services with an evident problem then it should be picked up (as proactively as possible) and a case-by-case decision made on the best way to resolve it.

As long as that doesn't result in dozens of wildly different approaches making an inconsistent passenger experience, that seems like the solution to me.

 

[Haywain]

The difference between an 8 car and a 10 car (as was originally discussed) is not all that much.

But the difference between a 4 car and a 8 car, or a 5 car and 9 car, or 8 car and 12 car is actually quite a lot. And the platform set-up is part of that equation - at my local station the main entrance to the down fast platform is at the extreme south end of a platform which is capable of housing 12 car trains. It is not infrequently served by 4 car trains which stop at the extreme north end of the platform. So, what happens when someone is a tad late to the platform and they see the train stopping 160 metres away? They run. Is this also safe?

 

[Gooner18]

Victoria line on the underground is good for this , walk to the end platform ( rear of the train ) 9/10 the last carriage will be reasonably empty with seats available.
Slight change of direction , however it seems people using HS1 and boarding at St Pancras seem to lose all brain function they just all panic and push in a mad rush to get a seat

 

[D1537]

There have been a lot of complaints about overcrowding on Scotrail services leaving Edinburgh during this years Fringe Festival, yet on almost every service the front 2 or 3 carriages are deserted. People just seem to cling together at the nearest carriages to the barriers.

This always happens on the Edinburgh-Queen Street shuttles, which is bizarre considering that most people are doing the whole journey and they're going to have to walk the length of the train regardless of where they get on, because both GLQ and the bays at Edinburgh West end are termini.

 

[norbitonflyer]

This is very harsh on drivers especially if they change formation throughout the day. Makes sense to have one stopping point rather than have an instance where a driver may have stopped short and thus an incident

It had worked for many years with separate 4/6/8 car stop boards. And as there is a still a 4/5 board, drivers are presumably expected to remember how many units there are in the train, even if they are not expected to remember what type of unit it is.

 

[Taunton]

The amount of times I've been given 20 seconds' notice of a platform alteration at various stations, especially West Hampstead Thameslink, has given me the experience to hang by the stairs - if I was at the end of the platform I would have missed the train!

20 seconds ? Luxury. On the DLR at Tower Gateway terminus the train stands there well down the platform from of the entrance, the second the timer does the 'ding' to start the door closed is pressed without any other warning apart from peeping as they do so, even with a number walking forward alongside to the front cars. Once this happens to you and you miss the train, you always enter at the first door.

Oh for a guard's whistle!

 

[norbitonflyer]

I think they do, however 2 carriages difference really isnt a lot if it makes it that little bit safer for all at all times

In what way is it safer?

As I said, stopping at the wrong end of the platform leads to people having to run to the right part when the train has sailed past them, or fight their way past the passengers who have already alighted (and a four foot drop!).
Not to mention those passengers who can't see where the train is but quite reasonably expect there to be a door, and not that four foot drop, near where they came onto the platform.
Also adds to dwell times as passengers all either have to squeeze onto the carriage nearest where they are waiting, or the train has to wait for them to move down the platform. (Or, this being SWR, just closing the doors in their faces. After all getting the train to the end of the line on time is the be all and end all - getting the passengers there as well is optional).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

despite the fact that most trains were 8 car and the driving cabs of the 10 car trains were totally different

They weren't when we had the original 10 car project because the 8 cars would be 455 + 455 or sometimes 455 + 456 + 456 and the 10 cars would be 455 + 455 + 456.

Definitely agree the 701s have very different cabs, though.


I do remember for a while they had different 4 and 8 car stop marks at Stoneleigh; previously they'd had an "S" car stop right at the end of the platform, so the front of a southbound train would always be right at the foot of the stairs. After they replaced that with an 8 car stop and put a 4 car stop at the end of the canopy, there was more than one accident caused by people running because they hadn't realised that some trains now stopped a lot further back. It wasn't long before they went back to everything stopping at the end of the platform.


This whole thread reminds me of an observation that in slam door days at Waterloo everyone would just pile in to the nearest carriage when they were getting on... and when we had corridors everywhere, people tended to run down the length of the platforms...

 

[Snow1964]

That plan doesn't always work ... at Doncaster, trains will often stop at the very far end of the platform (even when they are 5-car trains and the platforms can accommodate 10-car trains at least) such that even the back of the train has gone completely past the station buildings at platform canopy.

Doncaster is a classic example of why railway discourages spreading along platform
1) bit used is further from entrance
2) no canopies on bit they expect people to use
3) waiting room is away from bit they want used
4) platform seats are not spread evenly along length
5) any zones on platform, do not appear on itinerary (so it's guess the zone, or if lucky a screen might scroll and show zone occasionally)
6) Departure screens, often not visible near end of platform because no one bothered to encourage people to move down
7) staff that tend to hang about near entrance or staff room, rarely walking to platform ends, so not encouraging security unless near entrance
8) lack of shelter / wind draft screens along platform length.

Of course, if railway discourages it, why should passengers bother to spread out.

 

[etr221]

They used to be.
Circle, H&C and Wimbledon/Edgware Road C stock, 6 car
District 6 longer cars (and 7 car in R stock days)
Met 8 car

Now all 7-car except the Met, which is still eight.

And earlier - going way back - Circle 5, H&C and Dist to Edgware Road 5, District Main Line 6 or 8, Met 4 or 8.

 

[Horizon22]

I see this on two sides.

Definitely better to use space, prevent crowding and delays. But at the same point when I'm travelling - particularly at Gatwick as the OP mentions or London Terminals with an 8+ coach train - it's nice being of the few people willing to walk down for a much more comfortable journey. I don't want everyone else starting to do that

 

[mickey]

I’ve seen a handful of GWR drivers with a fold over device (a bit like a desk calendar for anyone old enough to remember what they are!) that they display on the dashboard to remind them at a glance whether they have 4, 8 or 12 coaches (387) or 5, 9 or 10 (IET). If I were the Fat Controller, I would productionise these and give one to every driver, then re-set all the stop boards to be at the most convenient place for customers on every platform. Both simple and safe.

 

[D1537]

I’ve seen a handful of GWR drivers with a fold over device (a bit like a desk calendar for anyone old enough to remember what they are!) that they display on the dashboard to remind them at a glance whether they have 4, 8 or 12 coaches (387) or 5, 9 or 10 (IET). If I were the Fat Controller, I would productionise these and give one to every driver, then re-set all the stop boards to be at the most convenient place for customers on every platform. Both simple and safe.

The Azumas tell the driver audibly how many coaches they have as they approach each stop. Do the GWR ones not do this?

 

[YorksLad12]

Most people hang around the entrance/escalators/lifts/stairs in case there's a platform alteration.

York is interesting. There are zone markings on the platform, and my regular train home is shown on the screens as using zones 13, 12, 11, 10, 9 and 8. Trouble is, the TPE stop board is in zone 7... once I worked that out I had no problem getting a seat as no-one ever stands there, while the people in zone 13 (usually with luggage) have to shift along 25 metres.

My morning (Northern) trip into York also has a stop board at Leeds... more importantly, there's a crew change. I stand near the replacement driver!

 

[mickey]

The Azumas tell the driver audibly how many coaches they have as they approach each stop. Do the GWR ones not do this?

I don’t know but if so then it’s even more stupid.

Reading is the one that annoys me most, the station was literally designed for the centre of the train to always be in the middle (equidistant from each of the two upward escalators) and it’s since been completely ditched. A 5-car stops way outside where it should (and would if anyone actually cared about customers).

 

[cb a1]

Was catching the train to Glasgow from Lancaster last week.
Announcements by the Lancaster platform staff over the PA were excellent. Clearly explained where to stand for all the different carriages so I was only a few steps away from the door I was boarding when the train arrived a couple of minutes later.

 

[GordonT]

SWR decided they couldn't trust the drivers to remember how many cars the train had, so they removed the "8 car" stop board and all trains had to stop at the 10 car board,

Sounds like a very poor solution to the problem. Surely it isn't beyond human ingenuity for a cab display to be provided displaying the number of cars in the current train composition, thereby allowing the car stop boards to be positioned on the platforms appropriate to the train length just as nature intended when widely introduced, I guess, about 60 years ago.
Edit: Have just seen Posts 74 and 75 which relate similarly to cab info on number of cars.

 

[stevieinselby]

I’ve seen a handful of GWR drivers with a fold over device (a bit like a desk calendar for anyone old enough to remember what they are!) that they display on the dashboard to remind them at a glance whether they have 4, 8 or 12 coaches (387) or 5, 9 or 10 (IET). If I were the Fat Controller, I would productionise these and give one to every driver, then re-set all the stop boards to be at the most convenient place for customers on every platform. Both simple and safe.

On an LNER cab ride video, I heard the train reminding the driver how many carriages it was on the approach to each station stop – that seems like a good thing to have as standard, although obviously more work to retrofit to older trains.

 

[Haywain]

On an LNER cab ride video, I heard the train reminding the driver how many carriages it was on the approach to each station stop – that seems like a good thing to have as standard, although obviously more work to retrofit to older trains.

But it doesn't affect where they stop on the platform - they still go to the far end regardless.

 

[Dr Day]

GWR have numbered zones and advice 'eg bicycles in zone X' but these are painted on the platform floor so not easy to see if the platform is crowded, and not always intuitive in terms of the direction of numbering. It can help if you have a reservation and it is a long train, but I must admit I still would prefer an additional 'front/rear of the train' rather than rely on numbered zones only, but I suppose that relies on people knowing the direction of travel. These systems are also only as good as the data they contain, with XC data in particular not being terribly reliable in which way around the set is.

 

[kieron]

It's great at Chester. Virtually no one goes down to platform 3B (where trains stop clear of the crossover and associated signal) until their train rolls past them. So just go down and wait a few metres short of the car stop mark and you can take your pick of the seats before the crowd comes running down the platform.

Platform 3B in Chester is great. Some trains stop at the far end of the platform, others stop roughly opposite the waiting room. Sometimes they mix things up so a train which would normally enter the platform in one direction enter it the other way, giving the driver an opportunity to breeze past a crowd of people waiting by where the train had been due to stop.

Not so great if you've got somewhere to get to, though.

 

[Sheridan]

Platform 3B in Chester is great. Some trains stop at the far end of the platform, others stop roughly opposite the waiting room. Sometimes they mix things up so a train which would normally enter the platform in one direction enter it the other way, giving the driver an opportunity to breeze past a crowd of people waiting by where the train had been due to stop.

Not so great if you've got somewhere to get to, though.

I’ve never seen a TfW train stop by the waiting room on 3B except the morning Holyhead-Cardiff WAG express. Avanti services may end up near to the waiting room, and 10-cars definitely will.

A train breezing past waiting passengers is absolutely standard for Manchester/Liverpool-North Wales services, because it’s not made clear to passengers that they should wait further down the platform. If you’re talking about trains which are booked to reverse in 3B, they will only usually go past everyone if they’ve been signalled down to 3A. This can be very frustrating for passengers if done with no notice but it’s not done just for fun.

 

[Jimini]

I don’t know but if so then it’s even more stupid.

Reading is the one that annoys me most, the station was literally designed for the centre of the train to always be in the middle (equidistant from each of the two upward escalators) and it’s since been completely ditched. A 5-car stops way outside where it should (and would if anyone actually cared about customers).

To be fair, trains that are five carriages or fewer are always advertised as platform X A/B, so you know well in advance which half of the platform to aim for.

Does the northbound approach to Tottenham Hale still have that “4 / 8 / 12?” sign on the approach to the platform? Been ages since I went up that way.

 

[Krokodil]

I don’t know but if so then it’s even more stupid.

Reading is the one that annoys me most, the station was literally designed for the centre of the train to always be in the middle (equidistant from each of the two upward escalators) and it’s since been completely ditched. A 5-car stops way outside where it should (and would if anyone actually cared about customers).

I'm more irritated by the fact that GWR are using five car trains through Reading in place of what used to be 2+8 HSTs. A consequence - I suppose - of their fleet issues, 80x working regional services which ought to be DMUs.

Platform 3B in Chester is great. Some trains stop at the far end of the platform, others stop roughly opposite the waiting room. Sometimes they mix things up so a train which would normally enter the platform in one direction enter it the other way, giving the driver an opportunity to breeze past a crowd of people waiting by where the train had been due to stop.

Not so great if you've got somewhere to get to, though.

In seven years of working trains through Chester, I never once worked a train in either direction through 3B that wasn't reasonably close to signal CR94 (unless of course it was a two car waiting for another portion from the east, in which case it will be close to the signal by the time it has coupled).

They'd never stop by the waiting room unless the train was long enough that the front has already reached the end of the platform. If they did as you suggest they'd be sat on the crossover which would block the entire platform, preventing anything using 3A.

 

[flitwickbeds]

If I were the Fat Controller, I would productionise these and give one to every driver, then re-set all the stop boards to be at the most convenient place for customers on every platform. Both simple and safe.

Aren't the stop board locations mainly set to ensure the driver has a clear view of (a) the doors and/or the dispatcher (which in turns determines the position of the dispatcher do they can see all the doors); and (b) the track and signal ahead of them?

I get the arguments that the railway needs to be as passenger-friendly as possible, but if the driver can no longer clearly see which signal they're supposed to be looking at before they start driving again, that may be very, very passenger-unfriendly.

Perhaps my Thameslink privilege at Flitwick (all trains 12 car except on a very few occasions, therefore all trains take up the whole platform anyway; no other train classes or TOCs to worry about) has destroyed my thinking on this?

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Platform 3B in Chester is great.

Platform 4 can also be fun, last time I caught a London train, it was 2 x 5 car Evero. It was displayed as Platform 4A only, with the displayed next train from 4B being to Birmingham some 50 minutes later! Being 10 coaches, of course it filled most of both 4A and 4B with the units coupled under the footbridge (which is pretty much the A/B divide). Then the electronic coach letter displays were all blank so no-one knew which half of the train was which letters (the platform display also had no letters). RTT had letters and unit allocations, but when the train has coach D (physical signs) inside two different units, it is not a surprise boarding was slow! The train manager gave up and switched seat reservations off for the whole trip, so we never did find out what was where! Was not excessively busy on my half at least.

 

[Kite159]

.

I see this on two sides.

Definitely better to use space, prevent crowding and delays. But at the same point when I'm travelling - particularly at Gatwick as the OP mentions or London Terminals with an 8+ coach train - it's nice being of the few people willing to walk down for a much more comfortable journey. I don't want everyone else starting to do that

Commuter services will see passengers spread out to use the full length of the train even at London terminals, leisure users will board the first available set of doors and complain there are no seats in the coach closest to the entrance (even going as far to sit in first class claiming that "no seats left")

I'm more irritated by the fact that GWR are using five car trains through Reading in place of what used to be 2+8 HSTs. A consequence - I suppose - of their fleet issues, 80x working regional services which ought to be DMUs.

Or using 5 coach trains in place of what used to be a 5 coach 180 or 3 coach Turbo.

 

[kieron]

A train breezing past waiting passengers is absolutely standard for Manchester/Liverpool-North Wales services, because it’s not made clear to passengers that they should wait further down the platform. If you’re talking about trains which are booked to reverse in 3B, they will only usually go past everyone if they’ve been signalled down to 3A. This can be very frustrating for passengers if done with no notice but it’s not done just for fun.

I was thinking of trains which were due to reverse in Chester. I've known situations where an incoming train (which was due to reverse) was badly delayed and they brought another train out so that people who are already in Chester could get away. When a train appeared it came from the other direction and so stopped in a different place.

Station staff don't have a clear way to distinguish the different stopping positions for platform 3B, so explaining what had changed wouldn't have been easy to do.

In seven years of working trains through Chester, I never once worked a train in either direction through 3B that wasn't reasonably close to signal CR94 (unless of course it was a two car waiting for another portion from the east, in which case it will be close to the signal by the time it has coupled).

I don't know where CR94 is exactly, but I've caught short trains from the 3B which were towards the middle of the platform and others which were near the end (according to opentraintimes.com, that would be near signal 87), depending (as far as I could tell) on which way it entered the platform.

You mention the front of the train being near the end of the platform. I'm talking about a train which enters Chester from the west, so the back of the train would be closer to the platform end than the front.