TPE Travel Irregularity Notice – Expired Railcard (advice needed)

[ilovecoding]

Hi everyone,

I’m looking for some advice please.

On 9 August 2026 I was travelling on TransPennine Express (Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Piccadilly) when a revenue inspector asked to see my Railcard. I opened the app and realised it had expired on 26 May 2026. I had completely lost track of the date. I renewed it immediately on the spot while still with the inspector.

I was issued with a Travel Irregularity Notice (reference starts with TPETIR). I gave my correct name and address.

I have checked my booking history and there are roughly 10–12 single journeys after the expiry date (mostly Liverpool–Manchester / Manchester Airport, plus a couple of London ones).

I genuinely did not realise the Railcard had expired until the inspector asked me to show it. I also wasn’t fully aware that the booking apps would still allow me to buy discounted tickets even after the Railcard had expired. I’m not trying to blame the apps. I accept it was my responsibility to check the expiry date and I failed to do so.

This is my first time dealing with anything like this.

My questions are:

1. What is the realistic range TPE are likely to ask for in a settlement?

2. How best should I word my reply when they write to me?

3. Is it worth stating a maximum amount I can afford when I reply?

I’m keen to settle this and avoid any court action. Any advice from people who have dealt with similar TPE cases would be really appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[MotCO]

1.The usual serrlement is the cost of a single Anytime ticket for the 10-12 journeys, plus around £150 admin fee.

2. Place yourself in the shoes of TPE. They will want to be reassured that this will not happen again, and that they receive the correct fare income in future. So you need to apologise for the oversight, show some understanding of the impact of 'fare evasion' (which technically this is), and provide assurance it won't happen again. Buying s new Railcard is good evidence of this - maybe put a reminder on your phone just before it expires so you can renew it in good time. @Hadders gives some good advice in his posts. Also, do not rely on AI-write it in your own words since that will come across as more sincere.

3. No, don't specufy any amount - they may only charge you for the one offence. In theory, you could have bought the other tickets for a friend who had a Railcard, so TPE can't prove anything other than the time you were caught.

Lastly, you will get good advice on this forum. Before you respond, wait for other contributors to offer you further advice.

 

[Haywain]

2. How best should I word my reply when they write to me?

Acknowledge your error, give an apology and assurance it won't be repeated and request a settlement. Address only what they ask about, which may just be the occasion when you were stopped.

3. Is it worth stating a maximum amount I can afford when I reply?

Definitely not - they are not interested in what you think you can afford but may also be asking for less. This is a hand you should keep close to your chest!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone,

I’m looking for some advice please.

On 9 August 2026 I was travelling on TransPennine Express (Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Piccadilly) when a revenue inspector asked to see my Railcard. I opened the app and realised it had expired on 26 May 2026. I had completely lost track of the date. I renewed it immediately on the spot while still with the inspector.

I was issued with a Travel Irregularity Notice (reference starts with TPETIR). I gave my correct name and address.

I have checked my booking history and there are roughly 10–12 single journeys after the expiry date (mostly Liverpool–Manchester / Manchester Airport, plus a couple of London ones).

I genuinely did not realise the Railcard had expired until the inspector asked me to show it. I also wasn’t fully aware that the booking apps would still allow me to buy discounted tickets even after the Railcard had expired. I’m not trying to blame the apps. I accept it was my responsibility to check the expiry date and I failed to do so.

This is my first time dealing with anything like this.

My questions are:

1. What is the realistic range TPE are likely to ask for in a settlement?

2. How best should I word my reply when they write to me?

3. Is it worth stating a maximum amount I can afford when I reply?

I’m keen to settle this and avoid any court action. Any advice from people who have dealt with similar TPE cases would be really appreciated.

Thank you.

Further to the excellent specific advice already posted this general advice given on the forum is probably of help to you:
I have put in bold the answer to your Q2
ref 3 - as others have said - you are not in negotiation with them, they will want what they deem that you owe. But we have seen TPE make very reasonable requests in relation to that so you may well be in luck anyway
Use the time whilst you wait to hear from them to save up the maximum they might ask you for so you have it to hand and can resolve matters out of court easily - if they ask for less than the maximum they might potentially ask for (an Anytime fare for each journey you identified since the Railcard expired) then that's a plus


Firstly, you committed a criminal offence (even if it was unintentional) by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

Next, what happens is the railway company will write to you. The letter will go to the address that you gave them / on any of your ID they checked so you need to be able to access hard copy post at that address as they often send things that way (but also check e-mail and spam). It is extremely important that you reply, and you'll only have a limited time to do so (often 14 days from the date on their communication).

When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter

The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey you made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit your online ticket purchase history and if this shows you've purchased other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only part of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on ) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys you've made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.

Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight you might want to think about how you will raise the sum required at short notice.

 

[ilovecoding]

Acknowledge your error, give an apology and assurance it won't be repeated and request a settlement. Address only what they ask about, which may just be the occasion when you were stopped.

Definitely not - they are not interested in what you think you can afford but may also be asking for less. This is a hand you should keep close to your chest!

Well I just received the letter from TPE (redacted copy attached).
They say that if I renewed the Railcard on the same day, I should send proof and the matter may be closed with no additional fare so I think this is a good thing no ?

As I already mentioned i did in fact renew it on the spot on 9 August can you please check the

• Screenshot of my new Railcard (valid until 8 Aug 2027)
• Bank transaction showing £35 paid to Trainline on 09/08/2026 at 10:32

Here’s the draft reply I’m planning to send. I will be grateful if you guys do any checks before I submit it:

Dear Sir/Madam,


I am writing in response to your letter dated 10 August 2026, reference TPETIR........


On 9 August 2026 the inspector asked to see my Railcard. When I opened it I realised it had expired. I had lost track of the date and only noticed when I was asked to show it. I renewed it immediately on the spot while the inspector was still there.


I am sorry for this. I understand that travelling with an expired Railcard means the ticket was not valid. I have learned from this and have set multiple reminders for the new one so it does not happen again.


I have attached proof of the Railcard I renewed on 9 August 2026, including the payment confirmation from that day.


I am keen to resolve this matter without the need for court action and am happy to pay any outstanding fare and reasonable administrative costs if required.


Yours faithfully,

Thanks again for you help.

 

[WesternLancer]

Well I just received the letter from TPE (redacted copy attached).
They say that if I renewed the Railcard on the same day, I should send proof and the matter may be closed with no additional fare so I think this is a good thing no ?

As I already mentioned i did in fact renew it on the spot on 9 August can you please check the

• Screenshot of my new Railcard (valid until 8 Aug 2027)
• Bank transaction showing £35 paid to Trainline on 09/08/2026 at 10:32

Here’s the draft reply I’m planning to send. I will be grateful if you guys do any checks before I submit it:


Thanks again for you help.

It's not 100% clear to me that they are saying they will not charge you anything - but it does seem that is what they are suggesting in their letter to you, and I tend to think they are, as you do (their wording may perhaps be possible to interpret either way)- so your response is fine but you may not need to offer to pay them anything in the last bit of your reply if they are indeed offering to accept that buying a Railcard immediately resolves the matter.

We do see TPE being reasonable on some of these sorts of things.

Useful learning for others that if they move fast and renew their Railcard ASAP when it's found to be expired on a ticket inspection that they may well have nothing else to pay.

 

[MotCO]

Useful learning for others that if they move fast and renew their Railcard ASAP when it's found to be expired on a ticket inspection that they may well have nothing else to pay.

But technically you would not be in possession of a valid ticket when you boarded the train.

If there were no valid ticket purchasing options at the station where you boarded, and you had an e-ticket on your phone, then you might be ok renewing your Railcard on board, but it is a grey area.

 

[furlong]

But technically you would not be in possession of a valid ticket when you boarded the train.

While the byelaw offence is complete after boarding, from the T&Cs I've long argued the railcard is valid retrospectively from the beginning of the day, so once purchased there is no loss to recover and this is another case where I think the common sense of the ORR review is clear that there should be no further action in respect of that particular journey. (Ticket purchase history is a separate matter.)

 

[158801]

While the byelaw offence is complete after boarding, from the T&Cs I've long argued the railcard is valid retrospectively from the beginning of the day, so once purchased there is no loss to recover and this is another case where I think the common sense of the ORR review is clear that there should be no further action in respect of that particular journey. (Ticket purchase history is a separate matter.)

We all know that analogies aren't the best but if you're stopped by the police with no road tax then just renew online. Car tax is valid from the beginning of the day so there should be no further action !

So I travel without a Railcard knowing full well that I can just buy a Railcard when challenged

 

[30907]

We all know that analogies aren't the best but if you're stopped by the police with no road tax then just renew online. Car tax is valid from the beginning of the day so there should be no further action !

So I travel without a Railcard knowing full well that I can just buy a Railcard when challenged

I hope you are neither admitting to nor encouraging fare evasion

 

[158801]

I hope you are neither admitting to nor encouraging fare evasion

Not at all.

I'm merely stating that if people are allowed to buy railcards and use them straight away whilst travelling without penalty, then no one would ever buy a Railcard until challenged

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So I travel without a Railcard knowing full well that I can just buy a Railcard when challenged

Wouldn't that just confirm that the Railcard had been bought after commencing your travel? And does this 'advice' help the OP?

 

[158801]

Wouldn't that just confirm that the Railcard had been bought after commencing your travel?

It would but, reading some comments on here - and looking at TPE's response - all you need to do, if caught without a valid Railcard - is buy one

 

[30907]

Not at all.

I'm merely stating that if people are allowed to buy railcards and use them straight away whilst travelling without penalty, then no one would ever buy a Railcard until challenged

Thanks. I did wonder if that was what you meant.

 

[Starmill]

So I travel without a Railcard knowing full well that I can just buy a Railcard when challenged

No you can't do that. If you're charged a Penalty Fare or asked to buy a new ticket, or accused of an offence under the Byelaw, buying a railcard retroactively doesn't alter the validity of those charges or not if you admitted to not having the railcard at the time when they were charged. You'd have to ask for a refund for a forgotten railcard or appeal the penalty fare on the forgotten railcard basis, which would be rather tricky to do. Realistically you can't buy a railcard between when the ticket is asked for and when you need to produce it or be charged again. It's not enough time.

What the TOC cannot do is sue you for their losses, because there simply are none. Except there would be in your account anyway because they'd easily find your previous tickets using railcards which you have admitted to not holding. This would actually be a lot more serious because by consistently travelling without a railcard but using the discount and then later buying one, you're putting up lots of evidence that you knew what you were doing was wrong and tried to get away with it anyway. Someone doing what you suggest would be in an even worse position than someone who just claimed to have bought a ticket from the ticket machine and then lost it, and simply paid for a new one on the spot, or paid a Penalty Fare.

 

[AlterEgo]

As per the letter from TPE, all they are asking for is proof a railcard was renewed on the same day and "would have been valid on the date you were travelling".

So yes, as per their apparently new approach, as long as you renew on the same day you were caught, that's fine and they will dismiss the case.

 

[duffield]

As per the letter from TPE, all they are asking for is proof a railcard was renewed on the same day and "would have been valid on the date you were travelling".

So yes, as per their apparently new approach, as long as you renew on the same day you were caught, that's fine and they will dismiss the case.

That seems like a fair and reasonable approach for someone whose railcard expired 6 days ago, but far too lenient if it was 6 months!

 

[Starmill]

As per the letter from TPE, all they are asking for is proof a railcard was renewed on the same day and "would have been valid on the date you were travelling".

So yes, as per their apparently new approach, as long as you renew on the same day you were caught, that's fine and they will dismiss the case.

Same as how DfTO operators have been instructed to give warnings and collect details instead of charging Penalty Fares to people on the first occasion they're recorded.

 

[ilovecoding]

Hi everyone,


Just a quick update on my case.


After I sent the same-day renewal proof, I first received an email saying my appeal had been upheld and the case was closed.


A short time later I received another email accepting the Railcard only for the 9 August journey and saying they reserved the right to look at earlier purchases.


Today I have received a further email. It says further enquiries have identified multiple ticket purchases using the 16-25 Railcard discount between 25 May 2026 and 8 August 2026, and they have asked me to supply evidence that I held a valid Railcard for those purchases.


My Railcard expired on 26 May 2026 and was renewed on 9 August 2026.


I would be grateful for advice on how best to respond to this latest request.


Thanks.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone,


Just a quick update on my case.


After I sent the same-day renewal proof, I first received an email saying my appeal had been upheld and the case was closed.


A short time later I received another email accepting the Railcard only for the 9 August journey and saying they reserved the right to look at earlier purchases.


Today I have received a further email. It says further enquiries have identified multiple ticket purchases using the 16-25 Railcard discount between 25 May 2026 and 8 August 2026, and they have asked me to supply evidence that I held a valid Railcard for those purchases.


My Railcard expired on 26 May 2026 and was renewed on 9 August 2026.


I would be grateful for advice on how best to respond to this latest request.


Thanks.

Do you know how much travel you undertook in the period after your railcard expired. And what that cost?

That’s what they are likely to want paying.

 

[ilovecoding]

Do you know how much travel you undertook in the period after your railcard expired. And what that cost?

That’s what they are likely to want paying.

I don’t have an exact total at the moment. There were a number of bookings made with the Railcard discount after it had expired (mostly short journeys such as Liverpool–Manchester / Airport). I’m waiting to see what list TPE come back with before I try to calculate anything precisely.

 

[WesternLancer]

I don’t have an exact total at the moment. There were a number of bookings made with the Railcard discount after it had expired (mostly short journeys such as Liverpool–Manchester / Airport). I’m waiting to see what list TPE come back with before I try to calculate anything precisely.

Thanks - have you asked them for a breakdown? We would usually advise doing that

Have you replied to this latest message yet? or do you still need any advice with that?

It's not usual for train companies to do things in this order - usually they check your purchase history and ask about it before they make any offer to resolve the situation / out of court offer - ie actively make payment of the past fares not paid correctly a condition of them not taking you you to court for the one offence where they caught you.

Are you not able to check through tour ticket buying purchase history your end (ie on line tickets) to see about any tickets you bought after the Railcard expired? Ideally yuo should do this in case they make an error with what they think you have bought - tho of course you can do this after you get their list if you prefer.
Tickets bought from ticket machines or ticket offices are, in reality, unlikely to be traced by them - although it would potentially be possible to do so we don't see rail companies usually doing that.

 

[ilovecoding]

Thanks for the reply.

I haven’t replied to their latest email yet. I was waiting for advice here first.

I can check my online purchase history. Would you recommend I ask them for a full breakdown of the tickets they are referring to before I respond, or is there a better way to reply at this stage?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the reply.

I haven’t replied to their latest email yet. I was waiting for advice here first.

I can check my online purchase history. Would you recommend I ask them for a full breakdown of the tickets they are referring to before I respond, or is there a better way to reply at this stage?

I think one issue is that given they stopped you with an invalid ticket (which you have now settled with them) if they could still prosecute you in the magistrates court (for that incident) within 6 months, if you do not engage with them over these other trips during the period when your railcard had expired but you still bought railcard discounted tickets.
Even if they could not bring a magistrates court prosecution they could bring a civil court case for the debt for the tickets - but that is less serious than a criminal court case.

Asking them for a breakdown of the travel is of course 'a response' - but is probably your next step

So you could reply to them saying little more than :

- Thanking them for their message of xx date

- Asking them if they can send you a list of the travel they believe you have undertaken during the period concerned so that you can check your own records

Keep it polite, and short, no need to get into anything else

- Do not specifically address the question of or actively admit that you did not have a railcard between 25 May and 8th August. Just avoid that question at this point.

I'd be interested if others here have any further or different advice. You can probably hold off replying for up to a week from the date they sent you that, which would give others a chance to pitch in with advice on this one

This is why you need to do your own calculation of what travel you did without the railcard - because adding up those fares gives you a clear idea of what sort of money they are likely to want from you.

You should use an Standard Class Anytime Single fare for each one way journey you took as this would be the most expensive fare they might ask for. It's possible they might ask you for the difference between what you paid and that fare, but I am not sure if they would or not (some train companies certainly do not do that - they want the full Anytime Fare).

You can look those up here

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

but for some journeys a confusing range of fares can be displayed so if you are not sure of the price of a ticket between A and B then post it here and people will clarify it. Or you may find it easier to look it up on the site you usually book tickets on.

For example - you mentioned Liverpool to Manchester Airport as a trip you did

The Std Class Anytime Single Fare for that trip is £22 - as shown on this list of all the different fares that exist between those 2 stations

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks. Full details of all British rail fares shown, with built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[blimmo]

I think one issue is that given they stopped you with an invalid ticket (which you have now settled with them) if they could still prosecute you in the magistrates court (for that incident) within 6 months, if you do not engage with them over these other trips during the period when your railcard had expired but you still bought railcard discounted tickets.

If OP has actually settled with them for that incident and hasn't admitted to any others then I don't see how they could bring a bylaws prosecution: prosecuting for something after settling seems like it would get them in trouble with the courts. I think there is even some case law on this.

So I think OP should be mostly worried about a civil case. Definitely do not take my word for it though: you need to be absolutely sure they couldn't prosecute you under the bylaws before you start arguing like they can't.

 

[WesternLancer]

If OP has actually settled with them for that incident and hasn't admitted to any others then I don't see how they could bring a bylaws prosecution: prosecuting for something after settling seems like it would get them in trouble with the courts. I think there is even some case law on this.

So I think OP should be mostly worried about a civil case. Definitely do not take my word for it though: you need to be absolutely sure they couldn't prosecute you under the bylaws before you start arguing like they can't.

Yes. I think this is the issue.

It would need someone more expert in the law to comment on this than me.

And even then i suspect the op may not be so keen on defending themselves in court if it came to it. And paying for a solicitor to advise on this is likely to cost more than what the railway company may demand in fares to be paid.

For example a solictors view could easily cost £500 or more.

10 single trips Liverpool to Manchester airport is c£220 + £150 admin fee that might form part of any agreement to settle this and resolve it from the train company - this is why the OPs check of their own travel records to know what is financially involved (no need for them to state that here) is important for them to do, so they know in general terms what is at stake in terms of cost.

 

[ilovecoding]

Hi everyone,

Update on TPETIR000****.

TPE have now sent me a list of journeys they say used the 16-25 Railcard discount between late May and August.

I’ve checked it against my own booking history. A few points:

• My Railcard expired on 26 May 2026 and was renewed on 9 August 2026.
• One journey on their list (25 May Liverpool–London) shows as refunded in my records.
• Two journeys on their list are after the renewal date.
• Two other journeys on their list do not appear in my app at all.

I’m treating this as their version of events and carefully checking it.

Grateful for advice on how best to respond to them at this stage.

Thanks

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone,

Update on TPETIR000****.

TPE have now sent me a list of journeys they say used the 16-25 Railcard discount between late May and August.

I’ve checked it against my own booking history. A few points:

• My Railcard expired on 26 May 2026 and was renewed on 9 August 2026.
• One journey on their list (25 May Liverpool–London) shows as refunded in my records.
• Two journeys on their list are after the renewal date.
• Two other journeys on their list do not appear in my app at all.

I’m treating this as their version of events and carefully checking it.

Grateful for advice on how best to respond to them at this stage.

Thanks

Just on this

a) -for the one they believe was refunded - does that ring a bell with you? Can you see the money going back into your bank for example? - was it a legitimate refund on your part - eg can you explain it to them - if so you can reply to say so (your railcard was valid on that day anyway given the dates you state) - are they asking you about the refund however? If you illegitimately applied for / obtained a refund then my instinct is you do not want to draw attention to that.

b) - for the 2 after you renewed the railcard then you can say that to them - but you will presumably need to show proof of the railcard renewal to support your point. Could the travel have been undertaken earlier in the same day that you renewed, before your actual renewal - if so that's a problem (as you would not have had a valid railcard at the time of travel) if not, then that should be fine

c) - for the ones not showing on your app - do you ever buy from any other ticket seller? Otherwise you can reply to say eg 'I have checked my own ticket buying records and can not find any record of purchasing these tickets. Please can you look again at your records to see if they are indeed associated with my ticket buying account' - or some such wording
(obv does the travel locations and the dates match with nay travel you might be able to check if you did on that day by looking at your diary)

It's reasonable for you to write back to them politely and constructively to query these cases I think - but make sure you sound co-operative in both the content and tone of what you write.

Feel free to post a draft of what you want to say if you think that would help

 

[ilovecoding]

Hi everyone,

I need to correct something in my post above, and I have a new question.

I said two journeys on their list did not appear in my app. Having looked properly, I do not think that is right. Their list has pairs like this:

1. 24 July 10:00 Liverpool to Manchester Piccadilly, and 25 July 10:00 Liverpool to Manchester Piccadilly
2. 25 July 18:57 Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool, and 25 July 17:15 same route

In each pair, only one shows in my app, marked "Changed". So these look like amendments. I booked one, moved it, the original was refunded and a new ticket issued. That would also explain the refunds they have mentioned. I am glad I did not send anything saying I had no record of them so sorry for the confusion, that was my error reading my own booking history.

Also for my new question all my bookings were through Trip.com, which issues split tickets. So journeys I made once appear on TPE's list as two legs via a station I never stopped at. Examples:

One booking Manchester Airport to Liverpool appears as Manchester Airport to Patricroft, then Patricroft to Liverpool
One booking Liverpool to Edinburgh appears as Liverpool to Preston, then Preston to Edinburgh
One booking Liverpool to Manchester Airport appears as Liverpool to Whiston, then Whiston to Manchester Airport

Their list is 23 entries but I make it roughly 14 actual journeys. Is it worth putting this to them? I am worried that if they price it per leg the figure doubles for no reason.

Also there is two London tickets (14 and 18 August) were bought on 31 July before I renewed on 9 August, but I travelled on both after the renewal and held a valid Railcard on both travel dates. On the 14 August journey my ticket was checked on board and I showed the renewed Railcard.

TPE have replied saying they consider the purchase date to be the relevant one. Is that position correct? The Railcard conditions I have read talk about holding a valid Railcard when you travel, and I cannot find a condition that sets a requirement at the point of purchase. I do not want to push an argument that does not hold up, so I would rather know either way before I say anything to them about it.

About where I actually stand and being straight about it, my Railcard expired 26 May and I renewed 9 August, and most of what is on their list falls in that gap. I am not going to try to argue around that. The 25 May London one was before expiry and was refunded anyway.

I have added up what I paid across these bookings, about £359. Using the Anytime Single approach suggested earlier, and counting journeys rather than legs, I think the full figure could be a fair bit higher, mainly because of the Edinburgh and London legs.

Two things I would appreciate views on:

1. Do TPE tend to ask for the full Anytime Single, or the difference between that and what was paid?
2. I am in a genuinely difficult financial position. Is it better to mention that in my reply now, or wait until they name a figure and then ask about instalments?

I will post my draft reply once I have heard back on the split ticket point, as it affects the wording.

Thanks, this thread has been really helpful so far.

 

[WesternLancer]

Just some thoughts on your specifics - hope it's clear which bits I am referring to - others may have other views so you may want to see what other people say before you go back to TPE if you have time

Hi everyone,

I need to correct something in my post above, and I have a new question.

I said two journeys on their list did not appear in my app. Having looked properly, I do not think that is right. Their list has pairs like this:

1. 24 July 10:00 Liverpool to Manchester Piccadilly, and 25 July 10:00 Liverpool to Manchester Piccadilly
2. 25 July 18:57 Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool, and 25 July 17:15 same route

In each pair, only one shows in my app, marked "Changed". So these look like amendments. I booked one, moved it, the original was refunded and a new ticket issued. That would also explain the refunds they have mentioned. I am glad I did not send anything saying I had no record of them so sorry for the confusion, that was my error reading my own booking history.

Presumably if you need to do so you can explain that to them.

Also for my new question all my bookings were through Trip.com, which issues split tickets. So journeys I made once appear on TPE's list as two legs via a station I never stopped at.

Just to note for a split ticket to be valid the train must stop at the station where the ticket is split - but I suspect you mean a station 'you never got off the train at' - as I doubt the ticket issues would have given you a spilt ticket for a journey where the train did not stop.

Examples:

One booking Manchester Airport to Liverpool appears as Manchester Airport to Patricroft, then Patricroft to Liverpool
One booking Liverpool to Edinburgh appears as Liverpool to Preston, then Preston to Edinburgh
One booking Liverpool to Manchester Airport appears as Liverpool to Whiston, then Whiston to Manchester Airport

Their list is 23 entries but I make it roughly 14 actual journeys. Is it worth putting this to them? I am worried that if they price it per leg the figure doubles for no reason.

Unfortunately I suspect they are within their rights to recharge you for the tickets you actually bought - not some way of paying a cheaper option for the journey you actually undertook when it becomes cheaper not to have spilt tickets

You can check these fares and compare using the fares site

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

But using Anytime Single Fares (as that is what rail companies usually use in these scenarios) for the Liverpool - Edinburgh journey

Anytime Single Liverpool to Edinburgh = £103.20 (through ticket fare routed via Preston)
Anytime Single Liverpool to Preston = £17.50
Anytime Single Preston to Edinburgh = £70.50 (route via Carlisle)

So the separate split tickets here for this journey are still in your favour anyway (£88 vs £103.20) if I have done this correctly

You need to do your own calcs in a similar fashion to compare with their list I guess (or post their list and calculations here so that fares experts here can double check it for you if you are not sure how to select the fares from the often lengthy lists of all fares possible which are listed on BRFares.com)

Actually fares charged should be on date of travel (a drop down on BR Fares 'fares period' which I didn't change but I am not sure there has been a fares increase or not since your travel - but bear this in mind if doing your own checks)

If you feel able to share it - Getting fares experts here to check their list might be a good way of verifying the costs issues at stake.

Also there is two London tickets (14 and 18 August) were bought on 31 July before I renewed on 9 August, but I travelled on both after the renewal and held a valid Railcard on both travel dates. On the 14 August journey my ticket was checked on board and I showed the renewed Railcard.

TPE have replied saying they consider the purchase date to be the relevant one. Is that position correct? The Railcard conditions I have read talk about holding a valid Railcard when you travel, and I cannot find a condition that sets a requirement at the point of purchase. I do not want to push an argument that does not hold up, so I would rather know either way before I say anything to them about it.

I am sure they are wrong about this and you should politely push back. The requirement is to be able to show a valid Railcard when you travel, as you say - not when you buy the ticket.

Refer them to the National Rail Conditions of Travel - as per here

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/7iflSDtwN50mQZMP6SKWH0/3bded7549df32c2f5eeadefac8bcb5d9/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_July_2026.pdf

The relevant section I believe is Section 8 (see 8.1) which says - my bold -

"8.1 If you use a Railcard to purchase a discounted Ticket, you must carry the Railcard (and have it available for inspection) when you travel. The Railcard must be within its period of validity when you travel (in other words it should not have expired)."

eg you could say to them for example

"The National Rail Conditions of Travel in Section 8 relating to Railcards states that "The Railcard must be within its period of validity when you travel". I purchased my new Railcard on xx date and the travel with these ticket(s) was undertaken on yy date. I therefore believe I had a fully valid ticket supported by a valid Railcard on this date and would request that you remove this from your calculation"

About where I actually stand and being straight about it, my Railcard expired 26 May and I renewed 9 August, and most of what is on their list falls in that gap. I am not going to try to argue around that. The 25 May London one was before expiry and was refunded anyway.

I have added up what I paid across these bookings, about £359. Using the Anytime Single approach suggested earlier, and counting journeys rather than legs, I think the full figure could be a fair bit higher, mainly because of the Edinburgh and London legs.

Yes, it's possible that splits etc work out differently using Anytime fares compared with Off Peak or Advance fares / different times of travel etc - but my point above remains my view - they will seek to charge for replacement tickets for the tickets you actually bought that were no valid - and FWIW I personally tend to think that is probably reasonable for them to do (unfortunately) even if it does not work out the cheapest for you

Two things I would appreciate views on:

1. Do TPE tend to ask for the full Anytime Single, or the difference between that and what was paid?

Can you not tell that from the list of fares they have sent you that they want paying?

We did used to see cases of TPE being very reasonable (and I think asking for the difference) - but in recent weeks and months we are anecdotally seeing all the train companies (esp the ones run by government now they have been re-nationalised and TPE is one of those) taking a firmer line. I suspect this is due to government issuing firmer instructions to the train companies they operate to get money owed off passengers for all the various types of fare evasion they deal with. I fear you may have to be prepared to pay for the full new Anytime single ticket. Anything less you can regard as a win.

1. I am in a genuinely difficult financial position. Is it better to mention that in my reply now, or wait until they name a figure and then ask about instalments?

I'm not sure will care very much. I'd wait until you see what they say before talking about installments - you could allude to it in your reply, whilst restating your desire to co-operate and conclude the matter 'amicably' at this stage by way of justifying why you are pushing back

for example wording like:

"I am anxious to co-operate with you to resolve this matter, but unfortunately my financial position at the moment is a difficult one, so it is important to me that any sum I need to pay is a true and accurate reflection of the travel costs I owe for the period when my Railcard had expired without my realising it. Please be assured this was an oversight on my part and there was never any intention to avoid paying the correct fare"

The problem is you are not really negotiating this with TPE here because despite them saying before they 'closed the case' earlier I don't think this prevents them taking the prosecution route for the time they caught you without a valid ticket due to no valid railcard, in which they have 6 months to refer it to court - you are at best
- pressing for accuracy and correct figures
- appealing to their better nature to some extent

I don't think they will, yet, go down the court route as you are clearly trying to resolve it - but there is always a degree of risk they might do

I will post my draft reply once I have heard back on the split ticket point, as it affects the wording.

Yes, do post your draft because you do need to make some points to them that are a bit technical to it's worth a check of your wording from experts here I think.

Thanks, this thread has been really helpful so far.