Are the recent derailments indicative of poor performance from Network Rail?

[saismee]

Moderator note: split from

Lewes derailment - Thursday 13th August

Seeing early reports of a derailment in the Lewes area. 1F36 hasn't moved in some time Edited to comply with rules Sources: Company log Traksy

www.railforums.co.uk

It looks as though this could become a trend with this hot weather. Two mainline derailments now.

Could this be indicative of Network Rail failing to monitor and enforce speed restrictions in a timely manner?

I seem to recall a post about someone from NR (a whistleblower?) suggesting that a major derailment was likely in the near future. I hope it's just a coincidence.

 

[Tetragon213]

Three derailments in less than 24 hours is, shall we say, rather suboptimal and a very bad showing from the railway. I'll be surprised if it's not heat related.

 

[Russel]

I'm aware rail travel is still very safe but at what point do we admit the number of serious accidents is increasing and is something more that a coincidence?

 

[jack31439]

I'm aware rail travel is still very safe but at what point do we admit the number of serious accidents is increasing and is something more that a coincidence?

All about having the data and identifying the trends. Of course that can often be interpreted in many ways, as usually happens.

 

[Russel]

All about having the data and identifying the trends. Of course that can often be interpreted in many ways, as usually happens.

Whichever way you interpret the data, we're seeing an increase.

 

[driverd]

Whichever way you interpret the data, we're seeing an increase.

Not necessarily, a clustering of incidents doesn't imply an overall increase. Eg: hypothetically speaking, if there were 10 derailments spread roughtly once per year 2006-2016, and 2 that occurred within a week 2016-2026, that is not an overall increase. Equally, if you compared with last week, you could plot a sharp and significant increase in just a week!

Hence the old adage about data being able to tell you anything in the right circumstances.

For all we know, this could just be a sheer coincidence. If there is a trend here, or similar causality, I have no doubt it will be identified by the RAIB. Until then, best not speculate and just rest assured that we have an incredibly safe railway system.

 

[develop331]

It would be interesting if they treated all three as one large issue and made one big press release about it (if it is determined to all have been due to similar cause of course)... Three separate investigations with similar causes and ultimately similar learning points/recommendations probably wouldn't be productive for RAIB to publish

 

[saismee]

It would be interesting if they treated all three as one large issue and made one big press release about it (if it is determined to all have been due to similar cause of course)... Three separate investigations with similar causes and ultimately similar learning points/recommendations probably wouldn't be productive for RAIB to publish

Merging them sounds like a really good way to miss an important factor and cause a serious problem down the line.

 

[Tomo]

What was the third derailment? I've only heard about this and Lewes.

 

[Intercity_225]

What was the third derailment? I've only heard about this and Lewes.

Potential Derailment At Clapham Yard 14/08/26

Seems 5Z02 a 444, derailed early hours of the morning and everything out the depot is cancelled according to real train times. Above photos show the affected train by headcode and some of the subsequent cancellations on realtraintimes.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Toby3875]

What was the third derailment? I've only heard about this and Lewes.

There was one at Clapham yard this morning

 

[Amos390]

There was one at Clapham yard this morning

Yes 444011 on 5Z02, won't go into further detail as there's a whole thread on that now (as linked by @Intercity_225 here), but it was very minor

Potential Derailment At Clapham Yard 14/08/26

Seems 5Z02 a 444, derailed early hours of the morning and everything out the depot is cancelled according to real train times. Above photos show the affected train by headcode and some of the subsequent cancellations on realtraintimes.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Intellectual98]

It would be interesting if they treated all three as one large issue and made one big press release about it (if it is determined to all have been due to similar cause of course)... Three separate investigations with similar causes and ultimately similar learning points/recommendations probably wouldn't be productive for RAIB to publish

Two higher speed at high temperatures and potentially due to buckling. The third was slow speed in a depot early when it was still cool. Two might be related, the other almost certainly not.

 

[AvidTrainGuy]

All three derailments in the south east of England.

Interesting to note.

 

[develop331]

All three derailments in the south east of England.

Interesting to note.

They are all different network rail routes though so I wouldn't say there's much relation

 

[Toby3875]

They are all different network rail routes though so I wouldn't say there's much relation

Apart from the Temperatures

 

[Krokodil]

Two higher speed at high temperatures and potentially due to buckling. The third was slow speed in a depot early when it was still cool. Two might be related, the other almost certainly not.

And incidents when shunting are far more common than outsiders realise.

 

[Edders23]

the sooner these high heat conditions finish and normal weather resumes the better it is pushing all of our transport infrastructure to the limits of it's endurance; not just the railways but roads, canals and rivers everything is being affected. At least this incident looks a lot less serious so a team of well equipped track staff should be able to get the errant carriage back on track. Any infrastructure damage might take longer

 

[Roylang]

Apart from the Temperatures

Which as mentioned above are very unlikely to have been a factor at Clapham at that time of the morning.

Roy

 

[milooo]

National Rail released a statement on X saying

We understand many people may be feeling concerned following the recent incidents on the railway.

Our thoughts are with everyone affected.
Safety is, and always will be, our highest priority.

We're working closely with industry partners to establish the facts and understand exactly what happened.

If you're travelling today, please check your before you travel at http://nationalrail.co.uk

For the latest incident and infrastructure updates, follow
@networkrail

https://x.com/nationalrailenq/status/2088311110583628215?s=20 is the link to the statement on X

 

[Intercity_225]

National Rail released a statement on X saying

https://x.com/nationalrailenq/status/2088311110583628215?s=20 is the link to the statement on X

Of course I'm sure alot of us here believe that it is just a coincidence that all of these incidents have happened so close to eachother, but I'm sure alot of ordinary passengers are worried about the fact these incidents have happened and may cancel plans to take the train. I think a campaign of some kind should be made on how safe the railway really is (especially compared to other modes of transport).

 

[SpannerWeilder]

All three derailments in the south east of England.

Interesting to note.

Statistically the most likely place to have an incident given the concentration of services. I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

[GPR]

Statistically the most likely place to have an incident given the concentration of services. I wouldn't read too much into it.

It’s been consistently 5-10 degrees warmer down south than where I live though. With the way the track looked regarding yesterdays derailment I believe temperature will have be a factor in the derailments.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It’s been consistently 5-10 degrees warmer down south than where I live though. With the way the track looked regarding yesterdays derailment I believe temperature will have be a factor in the derailments.

I note that your profile shows you in Liverpool.
Yesterday Sheffield was 35 degrees. Fair play to Kew Gardens that broke the record for this year at just over 38 degrees but it’s not that much cooler in the ‘North of England’ (as described by some).

 

[millemille]

And incidents when shunting are far more common than outsiders realise.

This.

Depots and yards typically use track that has been removed from mainline use, unless being built from scratch, because it is life expired for high speed running but is fine, in theory, for low speed use when moving trains around depots or yards.

I was an on-call Fleet Technical Officer for a TOC many moons ago and I reckon myself and my colleagues were probably looking at an average of a derailment during shunting every 2 or 3 weeks.

 

[evergreenadam]

This.

Depots and yards typically use track that has been removed from mainline use, unless being built from scratch, because it is life expired for high speed running but is fine, in theory, for low speed use when moving trains around depots or yards.

I was an on-call Fleet Technical Officer for a TOC many moons ago and I reckon myself and my colleagues were probably looking at an average of a derailment during shunting every 2 or 3 weeks.

Interesting, was it difficult to get the trains back on the rails? I have no idea how you would go about doing it.

 

[Harpo]

This.

Depots and yards typically use track that has been removed from mainline use, unless being built from scratch, because it is life expired for high speed running but is fine, in theory, for low speed use when moving trains around depots or yards.

I was an on-call Fleet Technical Officer for a TOC many moons ago and I reckon myself and my colleagues were probably looking at an average of a derailment during shunting every 2 or 3 weeks.

Another burgeration factor in most yards - Handpoints.

 

[millemille]

Interesting, was it difficult to get the trains back on the rails? I have no idea how you would go about doing it.

We had our own re-railing gang with a variety of jacks and traversing tables and air bags and generator sets and all the blocks of wood etc.

But a lot of the time you could, because they were invariably low speed and only one or two axles "in the dirt", with judicious use lumps of wood simply drive the derailed axles back on simply reversing back up the direction of derailment.

 

[millemille]

Another burgeration factor in most yards - Handpoints.

Indeed.

With shunter/drivers who will swear back is white and that they definitely checked the blades were thrown and latched in place despite the forward facing CCTV from the train clearly showing they weren't even looking at the points when they threw the handle and you could see the blades bounce and not latch and the diverging gauge being clear to see but they still drove the train over them and it MUST have been a points failure and the trade union will NOT stand for the cause of the derailment being listed in the internal investigation report as shunter/driver error and not following company procedures, despite this being the 3rd time they've put a train in the dirt....

....and breathe.

 

[Krokodil]

Indeed.

With shunter/drivers who will swear back is white and that they definitely checked the blades were thrown and latched in place despite the forward facing CCTV from the train clearly showing they weren't even looking at the points when they threw the handle and you could see the blades bounce and not latch and the diverging gauge being clear to see but they still drove the train over them and it MUST have been a points failure and the trade union will NOT stand for the cause of the derailment being listed in the internal investigation report as shunter/driver error and not following company procedures, despite this being the 3rd time they've put a train in the dirt....

....and breathe.

Don't forget the number of SPADs involving ground signals.