Lumo running train with no toilets

[MalaiseForever]

They should run the train but allow anybody who wants to get an alternative service. If it is an Avanti service, they will probably get to where they are going faster anyway!

 

[The_Van]

Services cancelled again today due to "train faults"

It really is a poor show from Lumo and an awful start to their West Coast service

 

[Russel]

Services cancelled again today due to "train faults"

It really is a poor show from Lumo and an awful start to their West Coast service

I very nearly booked Lumo to return from Scotland next Wednesday but decided to play it safe and went with Avanti.

As much as I want to try Lumo, I'll hold off for another couple of months while they get themselves sorted out.

 

[Djgr]

Can anyone get them off the network until they can actually a proper service?

If we have to persist with open access operators there needs to be far more stringent controls over them.

 

[DarloRich]

What should they do? Maintain their toilets is an obvious starting point.

agreed - but I am taking about on the day - run or not run? I would rather they keep the show on the road with mitigations and alternatives for those for whom the mitigations are not practical. (As in pay for those passengers to use a train with a toilet! )

They should avoid the temptation to be less rigorous in ensuring the future servicibility of their toilets by instead regularly invoking the fall-back of expecting their paying clientele to make do with the delights of the facilities at Preston station.

You assume it is penny pinching. It could just be that the contracted site used to empty the tanks had an equipment failure. However, to be clear your position is that broken toilet = cancelled train.

BTW: I have used Preston many times and never found the facilities to be wanting. The toilets always seem very clean. Cleaner than any train toilet!

Also "regularly" - how often has this happened?




EDIT - I better add this because you have to state the obvious - The toilets should be working. That they are not is simply not good enough. If, because of some problem on the day of the race, the toilets are U/S I would rather the train ran, with mitigations, so I could get to my destination rather than be delayed for hours. I would be able to manage for the suggested time. If I couldn't I would expect Lumo to put me on the next Avanti at their cost.

 

[mike57]

Over the years I have been on a couple of services where 'toilet stops' were required. In both cases there was one working toilet when I boarded the train, but this quickly became overloaded or otherwise broken (3 car services in both cases).

As for starting a service with no toilets on a 6hr journey, if as seems likely an extended stop(s) is needed en route then its going to be out of its path, block a platform somewhere and potentially and disrupt other services, so yes, the operator needs pay for passengers to use competeing services and the train probably should not run. You also need to consider the possibility that the toiletless service may be caught up in disruption not of its own making, and then your mitigation (toilet stops) will have failed.

 

[DarloRich]

You also need to consider the possibility that the toiletless service may be caught up in disruption not of its own making, and then your mitigation (toilet stops) will have failed.

that is a fair point.

 

[Watershed]

OBVIOUSLY, the train should have working toilets. CLEARLY, alternative travel options for those unable to, erm, hold until Preston should be offered. If it were me I would want the train to run. That said, I would be keen for it to be at Preston on time lets say!

Many are quick to complain about cancellations. Here, an operator has tried to keep the show on the road with mitigators and is getting a roasting. What should they do?

I don't think anyone is saying that in the circumstances, running the train with toilet stop(s) isn't the least worst option.

What they are rightly being criticised for is the fact that this shouldn't ever happen, and yet it seems to be a common occurrence with their 222s. It is clearly a breach of their duty to provide the service with reasonable skill and care.

They have evidently pressed the Meridians into service before they are ready because they are desperate to get the revenue flowing, rather than waiting to guarantee a more reliable service with the amenities people expect.

There is also a large question mark as to what arrangements they made for people who would not be able to 'hold on' until Preston. If there was ticket acceptance on alternative Avanti services then they certainly didn't communicate that properly.

And if, as I suspect, they didn't arrange any ticket acceptance on Avanti, that is an unacceptable failure to make reasonable adjustments and again to provide the service with reasonable care and skill.

I think criticism of Lumo along the above lines is warranted, regardless of whether running the train is the right choice in the circumstances.

 

[sh24]

They have cancelled one of today's services - I assume due to the toilet issue - then it sounds like they have listened to the justifiable criticism. Ticket acceptance is in place too for impacted customers which is no mean feat with Avanti a bit flaky and England-Scotland demand high due to the holiday, Edinburgh festival/fringe etc.

 

[DarloRich]

There is also a large question mark as to what arrangements they made for people who would not be able to 'hold on' until Preston. If there was ticket acceptance on alternative Avanti services then they certainly didn't communicate that properly.

And if, as I suspect, they didn't arrange any ticket acceptance on Avanti, that is an unacceptable failure to make reasonable adjustments and again to provide the service with reasonable care and skill.

What they are rightly being criticised for is the fact that this shouldn't ever happen,

I agree. It absolutely should not be happening and not to have alternative arrangements for those unable to "hold on" is a disgrace.

 

[trainophile]

How does anyone know whether they will be able to "hold on" when boarding a train with a view to the next toilet stop being over two hours away? Especially with small children, who have no concept of planning ahead, and seem to be permanently consuming juice drinks. In hot weather people will likely be consuming more water or other beverages too, which potentially adds to the problem. As stated above, if there's disruption added into the mix the situation could become extremely unpleasant for everyone.

 

[Amaranthe]

if not, Id just go easy on the drinks and get on with Lumo.

You may very well have meant this tongue in cheek, but for some of us having to go regularly is an unfortunate requirement without drinks.

 

[GordonT]

They have cancelled one of today's services - I assume due to the toilet issue - then it sounds like they have listened to the justifiable criticism.

In addition, from Lumo Journey Check webpage https://www.journeycheck.com/lumo/

"accessible toilet in coaches G and A of the 16:36 London Euston to Stirling service is locked out of use."

 

[D1537]

They have cancelled one of today's services - I assume due to the toilet issue - then it sounds like they have listened to the justifiable criticism. Ticket acceptance is in place too for impacted customers which is no mean feat with Avanti a bit flaky and England-Scotland demand high due to the holiday, Edinburgh festival/fringe etc.

The unit that failed today wasn't one of the two that had toilet issues, so I suspect that it's a separate issue. (The one on 1S03 with the locked-out toilets was one of them, though)

I note that they've at least arranged acceptance with TPE/Avanti/Scotrail for today's cancelled 1M03...

... however on closer inspection, the train they've arranged for Lockerbie to Preston leaves Lockerbie 18 minutes before the Lumo should have, and if you were waiting at Whifflet or Greenfaulds the train to Motherwell misses that train as well...

There is a later one from the above stations that makes 9M62 at Carlisle or Preston, but is there acceptance on that one as well?

 

[D1537]

As for starting a service with no toilets on a 6hr journey, if as seems likely an extended stop(s) is needed en route then its going to be out of its path, block a platform somewhere and potentially and disrupt other services,

Which is exactly what 1P04 did last week.

 

[Meole]

Surely Avanti and LNER should be required to honour Lumo tickets when there is a problem, if open access is to be encouraged as policy then the major operators should step up.

 

[Farigiraf]

Surely Avanti and LNER should be required to honour Lumo tickets when there is a problem, if open access is to be encouraged as policy then the major operators should step up.

It's the obvious short-term common sense solution, but I suspect it's not done as it'd effectively normalise Lumo being able to give up for whatever reason and let passengers take Avanti while still ticketing the revenue from the Lumo-only tickets held by passengers.

If you're putting the passenger first (which makes this a speculative post, I guess) then it'd be sensible to arrange ticket acceptance and then somehow allow GBR-run operators to pocket the FirstGroup-run operator revenue if they cancel a service, but at that point you may as well try to fix the root cause of the problem - i.e. no toilets being available on a 6h intercity service.

 

[800001]

It's the obvious short-term common sense solution, but I suspect it's not done as it'd effectively normalise Lumo being able to give up for whatever reason and let passengers take Avanti while still ticketing the revenue from the Lumo-only tickets held by passengers.

If you're putting the passenger first (which makes this a speculative post, I guess) then it'd be sensible to arrange ticket acceptance and then somehow allow GBR-run operators to pocket the FirstGroup-run operator revenue if they cancel a service, but at that point you may as well try to fix the root cause of the problem - i.e. no toilets being available on a 6h intercity service.

When ticket acceptance is arranged, certainly for Lumo to be accepted on LNER, Lumo pay LNER several
Thousand pounds, over £10000 per train I believe.

 

[GordonT]

Surely Avanti and LNER should be required to honour Lumo tickets when there is a problem, if open access is to be encouraged as policy then the major operators should step up.

It seems bizarre that Avanti and Lumo are both First Group entities. Either this outcome should have been resisted from monopolies concerns or if deemed acceptable (as it apparently was) it should be on the basis of interavailability of ticketing as far as possible particularly during disruption including unit/toilet failure and cancellations. We appear to have ended up with the worst of both worlds.

 

[Merle Haggard]

When ticket acceptance is arranged, certainly for Lumo to be accepted on LNER, Lumo pay LNER several
Thousand pounds, over £10000 per train I believe.

My understanding from past threads was that, in some circumstances, Grand Central buy individual tickets from East Coast when things go wrong for them. It wasn't clear that Lumo West Coast paid anything, so thanks for clearing that up.

//

It seems bizarre that Avanti and Lumo are both First Group entities. Either this outcome should have been resisted from monopolies concerns or if deemed acceptable (as it apparently was) it should be on the basis of interavailability of ticketing as far as possible particularly during disruption including unit/toilet failure and cancellations.

Avanti collect fares on behalf of the tax-payer, not First Group.

//
AWC is the accepted abbreviation for Avanti West Coast. Similar construction of abbreviation for Lumo West Coast would not be entirely apt

 

[Dr Hoo]

I still find it slightly bizarre that Lumo have a CET empty + water re-tank contract with Hitachi at Ferme Park but apparently no ‘running repairs’ capability whatsoever at the London end.

How do LNER, Hull Trains and Grand Central cope if any of their trains stable in London overnight having arrived with defective toilets?

 

[800001]

I still find it slightly bizarre that Lumo have a CET empty + water re-tank contract with Hitachi at Ferme Park but apparently no ‘running repairs’ capability whatsoever at the London end.

How do LNER, Hull Trains and Grand Central cope if any of their trains stable in London overnight having arrived with defective toilets?

They get fixed on Bounds Green (time and space permitting), well LNER and Hull Trains do, unsure of GC.

Ref Lumo the driver that works it on to Ferme Park will most likely take it through the fueler, cet and washer, then stable it in the sidings, then the morning driver will collect and take to Euston.

There will most likely be no driver to take unit onto Bounds Green even if the depot could accept the unit, which would be highly unlikely they could anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

They get fixed on Bounds Green (time and space permitting), well LNER and Hull Trains do, unsure of GC.

Ref Lumo the driver that works it on to Ferme Park will most likely take it through the fueler, cet and washer, then stable it in the sidings, then the morning driver will collect and take to Euston.

There will most likely be no driver to take unit onto Bounds Green even if the depot could accept the unit, which would be highly unlikely they could anyway.

Most of the paths from Euston to Ferme Park appear to have equivalents onto Wembley Depot, so presumably if attention is needed it would be done at Wembley.

 

[GordonT]

There will most likely be no driver to take unit onto Bounds Green even if the depot could accept the unit, which would be highly unlikely they could anyway.

Apart from no London-end facilities for defects requiring depot attention, do Lumo WC have access to a London-based fitter to effect a straightforward (for a fitter) running repair?
Edit: Just seen post 206 which mentions the likely Wembley option.

 

[800001]

Most of the paths from Euston to Ferme Park appear to have equivalents onto Wembley Depot, so presumably if attention is needed it would be done at Wembley.

Which begs the question why they don't send unit to Wembley instead of Ferme Park, especially as it's an Alstom depot.

 

[GordonT]

Which begs the question why they don't send unit to Wembley instead of Ferme Park, especially as it's an Alstom depot.

And in so doing would that perhaps give improved toilet fixing/emptying opportunities?

 

[moonarrow458]

Its interesting to hear of intercity operators running trains with no working toilets (LNER, XC, Lumo as mentioned), as i recall once travelling from Norwich to London via Cambridge (the GEML being shut due to engineering works) and the GA class 170 to Cambridge was cancelled last minute (after everybody had boarded) at Norwich due to no working toilets onboard. So everybody had to pile onto a crowded EMT 158 and change at Ely.

And Norwich to Cambridge is relatively speaking a fair bit shorter than journeys from Edinburgh to London or Stirling to London.

So it begs the question, Are train crew able to refuse to work a train with no working toilets? And do different TOCs have different policies as to whether a train is allowed to run in service without a working toilet?

 

[GordonT]

Lumo's Twitter page makes it clear that there were no accessible toilets on the 1636 ex Euston-Stirling (which was delayed 30 minutes en route due to trespassers on the railway in the London area).

⚠️ Apologies to those on our 1636 service from #LondonEuston to #Stirling, please be advised that there are no accessible toilet facilities on this train due to a fault. If you require access to accessible toilet facilities, please do speak to our onboard staff for further advice/assistance. ⚠️ Due to trespassers on the railway earlier in the London area, our 16:36 service from #LondonEuston to #Stirling has been delayed and is now 30 minutes late at #WiganNorthWestern.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Which begs the question why they don't send unit to Wembley instead of Ferme Park, especially as it's an Alstom depot.

Because there is no DMU fuel point at Wembley.

 

[Meole]

Lumo's Twitter page makes it clear that there were no accessible toilets on the 1636 ex Euston-Stirling (which was delayed 30 minutes en route due to trespassers on the railway in the London area).

Is no toilets regular on Lumo ? From reports on this thread it appears so. Are there penalties for sub standard service ?