Lumo running train with no toilets

[Howardh]

For those with prostrate issues, going 4 hours + without relief is unthinkable, water simply can't be held that long. So it's basically discrimination against those in such a condition. It's far from a joke, and Lumo should (if they didn't) arrange alternative train with another TOC.

 

[Chrism20]

As someone who has had the experience many years ago of an Edinburgh to Kings Cross run without toilets it is not fun.

That day it was clearly known there was an issue as it was announced as the train was flying through Wallyford station so the decision was clearly taken not to say anything until the doors were locked and the train was moving.

The manner in which it was done was far more annoying. It was known there were problems whilst the set was sitting on the platform in Edinburgh.

Should the service have been cancelled? Probably not but the passengers should have been made aware of the problem and given the option to travel later if needs be.

 

[dk1]

Looks like it’s not going to plan on the East Coast either although I doubt toilets are the issue. The 11:06 Kings Cross - Edinburgh & 16:26 return are cancelled due to a train fault. Thats going to be fun with the Fringe Festival in full swing. There is no ticket acceptance with LNER only with GC, XC & TPE for various journeys en route or wait for the following 13:06 northbound which I assume will already be heavily booked.

 

[43096]

Toilet stops are a desperate and unsatisfactory means of rectifying a serious problem.

Indeed. It’s a 19th century answer to the problem.

 

[aaronspence]

Should the service have been cancelled? Probably not but the passengers should have been made aware of the problem and given the option to travel later if needs be.

Its not ideal and they should be doing whatever they can to fix the issue, That said, As long as they gave say what 24 hours notice to everyone with tickets, offered a free Avanti replacement then I see no issue - And it isnt 6 hours with no toilet with the Preston stop, its 3.5, So with enough notice an adult can make their own determination on what to do.

If the Avanti ticket came with a guranteed seat Id probably take it, if not, Id just go easy on the drinks and get on with Lumo.

 

[D1537]

Its not ideal and they should be doing whatever they can to fix the issue, That said, As long as they gave say what 24 hours notice to everyone with tickets, offered a free Avanti replacement then I see no issue - And it isnt 6 hours with no toilet with the Preston stop, its 3.5, So with enough notice an adult can make their own determination on what to do.

If the Avanti ticket came with a guranteed seat Id probably take it, if not, Id just go easy on the drinks and get on with Lumo.

Well, they're not going to know 24 hours beforehand that the toilets are OOU.

I doubt if they offered acceptance with Avanti and I doubt if Avanti would have offered it given the problems they have and the fact that Anglo-Scottish trains will be busy with the Edinburgh fringe starting this weekend. I note that LNER have not done so today for the cancelled service, almost certainly for the same reason.

 

[GoneSouth]

For those with prostrate issues, going 4 hours + without relief is unthinkable, water simply can't be held that long. So it's basically discrimination against those in such a condition. It's far from a joke, and Lumo should (if they didn't) arrange alternative train with another TOC.

Whilst I really do sympathise, I would simply stay away from the open access operators who have several hours between services and never seem to arrange satisfactory alternatives or communicate effectively. Just go with Avanti and you have many more alternatives should things go wrong.

 

[trainophile]

In the ultimate embarrassing situation where someone does soil themselves, I trust they wouldn't be charged with an offence, and fined accordingly. It's debatable whether that would apply on trains that are known not to have toilets, but in this Lumo situation it's hardly the passenger's fault.

 

[800001]

Whilst I really do sympathise, I would simply stay away from the open access operators who have several hours between services and never seem to arrange satisfactory alternatives or communicate effectively. Just go with Avanti and you have many more alternatives should things go wrong.

We do not know what alternatives and communication (except X) Lumo provided.

 

[GordonT]

We do not know what alternatives and communication (except X) Lumo provided.

I wonder if I'm the only person on the forum who thinks that before an application for open access paths is granted the prospective operator should be told (in suitably professional legalistic words) "You wanna play with the big boys then you better be tooled up to sort out any problems which arise from your own inadequacies and not rely on operators you are competing against to sort your problem for you".

 

[Dr Hoo]

I wonder if I'm the only person on the forum who thinks that before an application for open access paths is granted the prospective operator should be told (in suitably professional legalistic words) "You wanna play with the big boys then you better be tooled up to sort out any problems which arise from your own inadequacies and not rely on operators you are competing against to sort your problem for you".

Open Access has to sign up to all sorts of industry-wide obligations already.
Among the Big Boys in ‘The Family’ currently, how would you say EMR is doing on its St Pancras services at the moment?

 

[AlterEgo]

In the ultimate embarrassing situation where someone does soil themselves, I trust they wouldn't be charged with an offence, and fined accordingly. It's debatable whether that would apply on trains that are known not to have toilets, but in this Lumo situation it's hardly the passenger's fault.

Thankfully you can piss or **** yourself in public without worry of criminal prosecution. It's a free country!

 

[jagardner1984]

I would have thought something GBR could do, usefully, is to take the decision out of the hands of self serving operators - whether they be OA or not - as discussed in another thread today about service gaps left by cancellations - we (GBR) are not asking you to accept lumo tickets, or to put in additional stops from a service pattern disrupted elsewhere - we are just instructing you to do so, with the financial penalty to fall with whoever is at fault, in the interests of overall "railway" customer service, or to even the load on the network.

 

[GordonT]

Open Access has to sign up to all sorts of industry-wide obligations already.
Among the Big Boys in ‘The Family’ currently, how would you say EMR is doing on its St Pancras services at the moment?

Pretty rubbish is the answer but it doesn't have too many alternative operators on which to deflect its woes.

 

[trainophile]

Thankfully you can piss or **** yourself in public without worry of criminal prosecution. It's a free country!

I've heard of people being arrested for having a discreet pee in a public place, so I wouldn't count on it.

It's a disgrace that in this country relieving oneself seems to be considered an optional luxury. We all have to do it, but provision is noticeably poor and getting worse.

 

[IanXC]

I would have thought something GBR could do, usefully, is to take the decision out of the hands of self serving operators - whether they be OA or not - as discussed in another thread today about service gaps left by cancellations - we (GBR) are not asking you to accept lumo tickets, or to put in additional stops from a service pattern disrupted elsewhere - we are just instructing you to do so, with the financial penalty to fall with whoever is at fault, in the interests of overall "railway" customer service, or to even the load on the network.

Who are these 'self serving operators that are not OA'? Oh yes GBR, so you're saying something that GBR could usefully do its take the decision out of its own hands and give it to???

 

[ox_chap]

Possibly not the nicest thing to think about, but presumably if someone was absolutely desperate, the guard could unlock a toilet door. It’s just it wouldn’t flush, and if multiple people did that, it would soon become very unpleasant?

 

[dk1]

Possibly not the nicest thing to think about, but presumably if someone was absolutely desperate, the guard could unlock a toilet door. It’s just it wouldn’t flush, and if multiple people did that, it would soon become very unpleasant?

Yes that has always been the case. You’ll warn the poor intending passenger that often the bowl is full to the brim & possibly slopping over the sides

 

[Wolfie]

I would have thought something GBR could do, usefully, is to take the decision out of the hands of self serving operators - whether they be OA or not - as discussed in another thread today about service gaps left by cancellations - we (GBR) are not asking you to accept lumo tickets, or to put in additional stops from a service pattern disrupted elsewhere - we are just instructing you to do so, with the financial penalty to fall with whoever is at fault, in the interests of overall "railway" customer service, or to even the load on the network.

I'm sure that HMT would be ecstatic (NOT!) with the idea of the taxpayer effectively becoming the final insurer for OA operators while the profits disappear to the private company.

 

[DelW]

And btw Lenor bottles and suchlike are no good for females, and females tend to have more pressing needs in the toilet department. Especially pregnant ones.

In case the information is of use to you or anyone else, there are devices available for women in this situation. My late partner kept one by the bed for a while when a mobility problem made it difficult for her to get to the toilet during the night. Hers was called a shewee, but there appear to be others available.

Sorry to interrupt the Lumo bashing ...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've heard of people being arrested for having a discreet pee in a public place, so I wouldn't count on it.

Some Councils are issuing decriminalised littering fixed penalties for it, but not arresting people. It isn't a criminal offence unless the relevant body parts are exposed (and there are other riders about intent) however, unlike some countries.

More seriously, if the train runs I think on balance it should be treated as cancelled for anyone who declines to travel, i.e. two trains before/after acceptance, a refund available if preferred and PRO rights to be re-routed if there isn't a train of that TOC within an hour. Some may prefer to travel, but for those whose bladder or bowels won't stand that there should be no pressure to travel which is caused by refunds etc not being offered. Toilet stops aren't good enough for some people.

As an aside I think it would be worthwhile for trains to carry as a matter of course some sort of emergency toilet provision (various solutions are available e.g. bags containing crystals) though this is more for situations where trains are stranded for many hours without power than any deliberate running of them without toilets.

 

[GoneSouth]

To state the obvious, if the government had not thought it prudent to retain Open Access, we would not even be in this ridiculous sitation.

That said, one wonders how GBR would approach a choice of either running a service to time but without toilets, or just cancel it. Which under GBR, in the main, you would assume would only happen at very short notice or indeed part way through a journey.

There is only one right answer, if your aim is public service in 2026. You run the train, to time, so as not to inconvenience those who have paid for it and can reasonably know they will not need an on train convenience, and offer a full refund to all others.

And furthermore, appropriate compensation too, for the literal inconvenience in a situation where it's a virtual certainty the issue was avoidable.

With most franchises and in future GBR services, it’s unlikely that a cancellation would result in a 3 hour wait for the next train. With open access operators who cannot or will not arrange ticket acceptance this can be the case. I’d rather not bother with the open access operators at all. It’s like Ryanair on rails (and yes, I’m aware they carry over 200 million passengers every year, and a 100 of those even claim to enjoy the experience, but I admit I’ve of them)

We're already seeing services being cut to save money.

Are we? Is there a thread where service cuts are being discussed? Thanks

 

[Dr Hoo]

I'm sure that HMT would be ecstatic (NOT!) with the idea of the taxpayer effectively becoming the final insurer for OA operators while the profits disappear to the private company.

Well, HMT are presumably already ecstatic about The Taxpayer being the final insurer for the rest of ‘GBR’ (in its current ‘proto ’ guises). Where do you think that all the overtime, Delay Repay, Refunds, buses, taxis and even hotels came from for Northern and TransPennine problems during the Manchester ROC issues last week?
This is the current government’s policy, isn’t it?

 

[jagardner1984]

I'm sure that HMT would be ecstatic (NOT!) with the idea of the taxpayer effectively becoming the final insurer for OA operators while the profits disappear to the private company.

well obviously as per delay repay the at fault operator would foot the bill, unless it was force majeure or whatever the phrase is.

However, the broader point of why "privatised" rail doesn't work is that it is ultimately not acceptable for Avanti or FGW to fail (as in cease operating) - and therefore we have the OLR system which, logical for the functioning of the economy, makes a mockery of it being any normal form of private enterprise. It never was and it never could be. Similarly I think now if for example Lumo east coast or Hull trains were to cease trading overnight - on Lumo alone, 6 trains per day each way, 400 seats each train, generally quite a high load factor - in this busy season I could see them carrying 3-4000 passengers each day - in reality they like all these other "private" businesses have become too big to fail, and so I think some form of contractual arrangement would take place to ensure continuity of service, at least until those routes could be absorbed into LNER timetables - because again, "Joe Public" doesn't really understand why when "the railway" has cancelled their train to London, and they are standing on the same platform where another train is also going to London, why it is not acceptable to get on it.

Similarly if they had a medical need to use a toilet more frequently than a stop in Preston ... then surely it should be ok to use another train to the same place with a functioning toilet.

The specifics of how that all works is for someone cleverer than me, but the average overseas tourist or casual rail user should not have to concern themselves with the stupidity of railway internal contracting. I would love to see them try and defend a penalty fare given to a passenger with a condition who had got on the "wrong" train in order to use a toilet. Much is spoken about simplification of the fares system, but surely, above all, some common sense should be the guiding principle, often, sorely lacking.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

For those with prostrate issues, ---

I assume you meant prostate?

 

[Russel]

Are we? Is there a thread where service cuts are being discussed? Thanks

Avanti and Thameslink have made cuts to services over the summer period at the request of the DFT to save money...

 

[DarloRich]

OBVIOUSLY, the train should have working toilets. CLEARLY, alternative travel options for those unable to, erm, hold until Preston should be offered. If it were me I would want the train to run. That said, I would be keen for it to be at Preston on time lets say!

Many are quick to complain about cancellations. Here, an operator has tried to keep the show on the road with mitigators and is getting a roasting. What should they do?

And yes, I have been on plenty of trains with no working toilets. It is a right PITA . Sometimes literally!

 

[43096]

Many are quick to complain about cancellations. Here, an operator has tried to keep the show on the road with mitigators and is getting a roasting. What should they do?

What should they do? Maintain their toilets is an obvious starting point.

 

[trainophile]

There’s only four (or is it five?) cubicles for ladies at Preston, and there’s usually a queue at the best of times. Not ideal for potentially 100+ desperate women to find on arrival!

 

[GordonT]

Many are quick to complain about cancellations. Here, an operator has tried to keep the show on the road with mitigators and is getting a roasting. What should they do?

They should avoid the temptation to be less rigorous in ensuring the future servicibility of their toilets by instead regularly invoking the fall-back of expecting their paying clientele to make do with the delights of the facilities at Preston station.