Avanti cancellations - is it always this bad?

[Swedenorer]

When they say they are "working hard to make sure we can minimise these cancellations", what exactly do they mean?

Nothing - 'working hard' in this context is a standard PR phrase deployed usually when no realistic solution is available.

 

[route101]

I think what's really needed is a complete re-cast of the timetable so overtime is minimised as much as it can be, even if that means significant reductions in frequency, at least then you'll have a better chance of the train running. There are several instances of 2 trains timetabled to run together on sections of route, like 2 London trains between Carlisle, Oxenholme and Preston, ok so both take different routes south of Preston and there may be Penrith missed by one of them, but why not just have one of them run from the North with a call at Penrith with the other starting at Preston and passengers changing? I don't see the issue myself of changing trains if it means the majority of timetabled workings can run with existing realistic staffing levels. They seem to be operating beyond their realistic means so things should be cut back.

I always thought the services were flighted on the WCML. The Glasgow to Euston via Birmingham services have only recently been reinstated.

 

[CW2]

I think what's really needed is a complete re-cast of the timetable so overtime is minimised as much as it can be, even if that means significant reductions in frequency, at least then you'll have a better chance of the train running. There are several instances of 2 trains timetabled to run together on sections of route, like 2 London trains between Carlisle, Oxenholme and Preston, ok so both take different routes south of Preston and there may be Penrith missed by one of them, but why not just have one of them run from the North with a call at Penrith with the other starting at Preston and passengers changing? I don't see the issue myself of changing trains if it means the majority of timetabled workings can run with existing realistic staffing levels. They seem to be operating beyond their realistic means so things should be cut back.

The timetable on the northern part of the WCML deliberately flights the passenger trains together in order to leave capacity for the slow freight services.

The ability to make a journey without the hassle of changing trains is very important to many sections of the public.

As currently set up, the industry is practically incapable of producing a degraded all-operator integrated timetable.

 

[Peter0124]

I think what's really needed is a complete re-cast of the timetable so overtime is minimised as much as it can be, even if that means significant reductions in frequency, at least then you'll have a better chance of the train running. There are several instances of 2 trains timetabled to run together on sections of route, like 2 London trains between Carlisle, Oxenholme and Preston, ok so both take different routes south of Preston and there may be Penrith missed by one of them, but why not just have one of them run from the North with a call at Penrith with the other starting at Preston and passengers changing? I don't see the issue myself of changing trains if it means the majority of timetabled workings can run with existing realistic staffing levels. They seem to be operating beyond their realistic means so things should be cut back.

I disagree about reducing direct services, once we get out of school holiday season I'm hoping things will improve

 

[AndrewE]

Flighting the Anglo-Scottish services on the WCML works quite well for connections to Glasgow or Edinburgh too when the 2-hourly train via Brum goes to the other place. (Avanti onto TPE at Preston or Carlisle.)

What doesn't work is getting North from Crewe if the Brum train is cancelled, as it is the only northbound service for people travelling from the Midlands (E & W) and Wales. They never stop the Trent valley Euston - Glasgows in theses circumstances, which they really should.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The ability to make a journey without the hassle of changing trains is very important to many sections of the public.

The ability to make journeys without the hassle of cancelled trains is just as important. Changing trains when it's the same platform or cross platform shouldn't be a major problem.

 

[GordonT]

The ability to make journeys without the hassle of cancelled trains is just as important. Changing trains when it's the same platform or cross platform shouldn't be a major problem.

As long as the incoming train isn't late and the train it's supposed to connect with has gone.

 

[SirAlf]

Nothing - 'working hard' in this context is a standard PR phrase deployed usually when no realistic solution is available.

That expression really bugs me. In the event of any problem (not just on the railway) is the word “working” ever used without bring followed by the word “hard”. End of rant

 

[SECR 65]

Travelling Euston to Birmingham tomorrow morning. We get into London Victoria at 0936, and we need to be on a TfW service from Birmingham at 1208 (International) / 1222 (New St) / 1241 (Wolverhampton).

Any thoughts about the reliability tomorrow of 9G14 or 9S60? (1016 and 1040 ex-Euston respectively).

 

[dk1]

Travelling Euston to Birmingham tomorrow morning. We get into London Victoria at 0936, and we need to be on a TfW service from Birmingham at 1208 (International) / 1222 (New St) / 1241 (Wolverhampton).

Any thoughts about the reliability tomorrow of 9G14 or 9S60? (1016 and 1040 ex-Euston respectively).

Tomorrow should be fine traincrew wise.

 

[Foxcover]

Have to say I was very impressed with the Avanti Train Managers, Avanti control/social media and even the Euston gatelines yesterday given the operational difficulties.

We were on the 0932 from Chester to Euston, and the 1633 Euston to Piccadilly (as far as Crewe where it had to terminate) - the 0932 had an overcrowding issue (due to several Avanti Chester cancellations) and the TM did a super job throughout the journey of making sure standard and first class seats were filled, checking occupancy after each stop), the TM on the 1633 did a great job keeping everyone informed on progress in finding a driver (when the assigned one was delayed) and on the short-termination, and it was evident that control were trying to fill gaps wherever they had opportunity (including an additional Glasgow and Piccadilly train in lieu of cancellations in the early evening, both of which we saw at Crewe) and keeping the TM informed. The professionalism and pride was very obvious to passengers, several of whom near us commented. Euston gatelines were friendly and quick, focusing on keeping the gatelines moving and helping passengers with questions, rather than ticket checks.

It did leave me thinking that Andy Burnham needs to direct something immediate to the DfT to get the rest day renewal on the negotiating table urgently, and if there is one department that should be relocated to the regions quickly - whether Manchester, Leeds or whatever - it should be the DfT! (I‘ll get my coat…)

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It did leave me thinking that Andy Burnham needs to direct something immediate to the DfT to get the rest day renewal on the negotiating table urgently, and if there is one department that should be relocated to the regions quickly - whether Manchester, Leeds or whatever - it should be the DfT! (I‘ll get my coat…)

Great British Railways will be based in Derby. Not sure it's realistic to expect any more than that.

 

[SECR 65]

Tomorrow should be fine traincrew wise.

Thanks - will hope for the best!

 

[800002]

direct something immediate to the DfT to get the rest day renewal on the negotiating table urgently,

Just speculation here.
It probably already has been on the DfT / TOC radar for quite some time before it expired.
It is, of course, in the DfT interest not to have it renewed, however.
Less cost.
No overtime being worked on rest day = no overtime payments.
They don't care if a service operates or not, they care about not paying out money.

Why else would Avanti be instructed to reduce their timetable for however many weeks AND not be instructed to renew the RDW agreement?

 

[parkender102]

Before Avanti took over from Virgin I used to commute weekly to London from Chester on Virgin. I did this for 12 years Monday Morning down to London and returning every Friday Afternoon. I can count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times I was delayed by more than half an hour. Everything ran smoothly for those 12 years. Now even on the occasional trip with Avanti I seem to encounter numerous cancellations and late running on virtually every trip I or other members of my family make. Various excuses such as 'shortage of train crew', 'train fault' etc etc. Never had this with Virgin.

 

[Peter0124]

Before Avanti took over from Virgin I used to commute weekly to London from Chester on Virgin. I did this for 12 years Monday Morning down to London and returning every Friday Afternoon. I can count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times I was delayed by more than half an hour. Everything ran smoothly for those 12 years. Now even on the occasional trip with Avanti I seem to encounter numerous cancellations and late running on virtually every trip I or other members of my family make. Various excuses such as 'shortage of train crew', 'train fault' etc etc. Never had this with Virgin.

Anyone on twitter in Virgins last days who said "can't wait till the new operator takes over" is probably regretting it now.

They really were the peak of WCML operations.

 

[footprints]

I disagree about reducing direct services, once we get out of school holiday season I'm hoping things will improve

They'll have an extra 38 services a day to run then, so the number of cancellations may get worse.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Anyone on twitter in Virgins last days who said "can't wait till the new operator takes over" is probably regretting it now.

They really were the peak of WCML operations.

Once they got the shiny new trains that came with the franchise, sure, they were decently competent. Prior to that, not so much. And it was Virgin that closed their traincrew depot at Carlisle leading to the regular collapse of services when there's a problem north of Preston, something that happens far too often today.

 

[D1537]

No overtime being worked on rest day = no overtime payments.
They don't care if a service operates or not, they care about not paying out money.

I wonder how that might change if cancellations to Manchester services come to the attention of the PM...

 

[pnepaul]

Today, most of the Anglo-Scottish cancellations were Euston to Preston via Trent Valley. The ones via the West Midlands seemed unaffected. I was on the 15.35 Glasgow to Preston - should have gone to Euston via the Trent Valley. It was lightly loaded, just 4 in carriage G.

 

[Peter0124]

Today, most of the Anglo-Scottish cancellations were Euston to Preston via Trent Valley. The ones via the West Midlands seemed unaffected. I was on the 15.35 Glasgow to Preston - should have gone to Euston via the Trent Valley. It was lightly loaded, just 4 in carriage G.

I feel like that's normal for coach G atleast when leaving Glasgow.

 

[dk1]

Today, most of the Anglo-Scottish cancellations were Euston to Preston via Trent Valley. The ones via the West Midlands seemed unaffected. I was on the 15.35 Glasgow to Preston - should have gone to Euston via the Trent Valley. It was lightly loaded, just 4 in carriage G.

All passengers transferred to other services as plenty of notice given. If only travelling to stations as far as Preston it’s a joy to have it so spacious and relaxed.

 

[riceuten]

It’s a never ending cycle. Overtime will always be required in such railway operating jobs.

Not if you recruit up to number

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2026 ==

When they say they are "working hard to make sure we can minimise these cancellations", what exactly do they mean?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2026 ==

Absolutely nothing. Avanti are phoning it in

But surely drivers can't just take holidays whenever they want, it has to be approved so that staffing levels are maintained? That's how it works in any normal industry.

No, annual leave is booked months in advance to suit rotas. The problem is that many TOCs rely on rest day working/overtime to cover annual leave, rather than recruiting sufficient drivers to do so

 

[Toby268]

Not if you recruit up to number

Then you need to factor in sickness, medical restrictions etc. Having spare coverage built in only goes so far for those factors which fluctuate. So yes, overtime will always be required.

 

[dk1]

Not if you recruit up to number

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2026 ==

Exactly as we did here at Greater Anglia throughout the pandemic and ever since. We even employed too many drivers at some depots so where over-establishment meaning they could not be rostered a turn until a vacancy arose.

What I was getting at though was that an operator is always chasing its tail and gone are the days when people worked up until their official retirement date aged 65 as it was back in the day. Traincrew now leave in their 50s sometimes with less than six weeks notice.

 

[Llandudno]

That’s exac

I think what's really needed is a complete re-cast of the timetable so overtime is minimised as much as it can be, even if that means significant reductions in frequency, at least then you'll have a better chance of the train running. There are several instances of 2 trains timetabled to run together on sections of route, like 2 London trains between Carlisle, Oxenholme and Preston, ok so both take different routes south of Preston and there may be Penrith missed by one of them, but why not just have one of them run from the North with a call at Penrith with the other starting at Preston and passengers changing? I don't see the issue myself of changing trains if it means the majority of timetabled workings can run with existing realistic staffing levels. They seem to be operating beyond their realistic means so things should be cut back.

That’s exactly what Northern did a few years ago in the north west, made very little difference still loads of cancellations at the weekend especially during school holidays, major sports events or when the weather forecast is good…!

Full timetable still not restored, ask the residents of Congleton!

 

[MontyP]

That’s exac

That’s exactly what Northern did a few years ago in the north west, made very little difference still loads of cancellations at the weekend especially during school holidays, major sports events or when the weather forecast is good…!

This is the bit I don't understand - the weather forecast is only accurate a few days in advance. So are staff applying for (and being given authorisation to take) holidays at weekends at a handful of days' notice or are they just refusing to do overtime?

 

[dk1]

This is the bit I don't understand - the weather forecast is only accurate a few days in advance. So are staff applying for (and being given authorisation to take) holidays at weekends at a handful of days' notice or are they just refusing to do overtime?

It’s refusing to do overtime. Remember too that local depots also have a limit on the amount of odd leave days that must be guaranteed. This is regardless of whether those turns can be covered or not.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Just speculation here.
It probably already has been on the DfT / TOC radar for quite some time before it expired.
It is, of course, in the DfT interest not to have it renewed, however.
Less cost.
No overtime being worked on rest day = no overtime payments.
They don't care if a service operates or not, they care about not paying out money.

Why else would Avanti be instructed to reduce their timetable for however many weeks AND not be instructed to renew the RDW agreement?

That timetable reduction was instigated when Reeves/Starmer ran the show and we know Alexander has been very vocal about sustainable subsidy with Hendy telling Transport Select Committee too many trains run around with fresh air over summer. So in some respects I can see you could be right. However we now have Burnham and No.10 North so I doubt they will want to see a degraded service to Manchester once parliament returns so will they reinstate the RDW agreement. Mind you given the scale of cancellations we are seeing over weekends it suggest the current timetable is far too ambitious for available resources currently. Furthermore they've already loaded up a stack of cancellations and term shorts for tomorrow .

 

[M60lad]

Speaking of cancellations I noticed that on Saturday one of the cancelled trains was 20:15 Piccadilly-Euston service which on a Saturday is the last train of the day to London, obviously passengers were advised to get the train before which was 19:15 but for some reason left at 19:42, not to sure what any passengers who turned up specifically for 20:15 did.

I've mentioned this before but I remember once when 20:15 was cancelled a couple of replacement coaches were sourced and ran the full route to London Euston which is odd as Rail Replacements from North very rarely reach London Euston instead running part way with passengers transferring to Midland Mainline services into London.