The failure of Northern Connect

[amahy]

IMHO we shouldn't be throwing loads of resources at the people wanting to save money on Leeds- Manchester tickets by sitting on DMUs via Calder Valley - good luck to them if they want to put up with the journey time/discomfort to save a few quid but they aren't they biggest priority

If anything, this needs to be actively discouraged. Why are Leeds to Manchester passengers being encouraged to use overcrowded 2 car trains? And therefore, taking up the space of people travelling to places like Bradford, where there is no magical second route from Manchester!

 

[yorksrob]

The other question is how long is Bradford Interchange going to be open.

In 2024 they stated that it would need to be replaced. In 2025 they were still looking for a suitable place. Surely if the bus station is going the train station will be as well.

On another note I can see the Yorkshire Flyer getting extended to Bradford when the Hull train stops at Leeds. Can't see the Nottingham one getting extended to Bradford as my understanding it would have to cross more or less all the lines at Leeds.

Not really. The station is on fairly solid ground (the old trackbed to Exchange) and is close to the Centre. Whatever happens to the buses, I don't see them moving the station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2026 ==

If anything, this needs to be actively discouraged. Why are Leeds to Manchester passengers being encouraged to use overcrowded 2 car trains? And therefore, taking up the space of people travelling to places like Bradford, where there is no magical second route from Manchester!

That's easily done - get rid of the TPE fare premium for anything walk-up.

 

[bigmanaiq]

You’d think that GWR and EMR may also want additional units. It’s not a given that Northern will receive a significant windfall, and even if they do there may be other areas which have to be resourced first: ie the Huddersfield-York via Castleford service that is transferring from TP. Many more existing services may require strengthening first, before we start adding more capacity-wasting 2 carriage services onto our congested network.

The Huddersfield - York is transferring from TPE?

 

[Iskra]

The Huddersfield - York is transferring from TPE?

In time, yes.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, It's actually guite a decent, relatively cost effective service between WYorks and the North West provided (mostly) by Northern.

Far better than the overpriced, poorly planned shambles between WYorks and the East Coast where Northern provides a lot fewer of the services.

 

[YorksLad12]

The other question is how long is Bradford Interchange going to be open.

In 2024 they stated that it would need to be replaced. In 2025 they were still looking for a suitable place. Surely if the bus station is going the train station will be as well.

I mean, if you could do some major "redecoration" of Bradford similar to what Manchester had in the 1990s... you could rebuild Exchange. Reopen the route via Adolphus Street from the east. Drop the current tracks so they pass under Bridge Street again. You'd still have to reverse though... The rail station's fine (except possibly for the want of a platform 0), it's the bus station that's like a rotten tooth.

On another note I can see the Yorkshire Flyer getting extended to Bradford when the Hull train stops at Leeds. Can't see the Nottingham one getting extended to Bradford as my understanding it would have to cross more or less all the lines at Leeds.

Not really, In on E, out on D from Sheffield; in on C, out on F to Sheffield. It would need somewhere to lay over at Interchange though. And, as others have said, you'll need extra rolling stock, unless it was just Sundays (like the odd Nottingham - Settle services).

 

[bigmanaiq]

I doubt the Yorkshire Flyer in its current form is extending anywhere. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t a large part of it being introduced to alleviate Leeds-Wakefield-Sheffield passengers off of XC?

 

[MichaelTrains]

I doubt the Yorkshire Flyer in its current form is extending anywhere. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t a large part of it being introduced to alleviate Leeds-Wakefield-Sheffield passengers off of XC?

There was a 150 working the flyer the other Sunday.

Seeing a 150 would force anyone off it.

 

[Freemo]

In my experience it's been more heavily loaded on Saturdays than weekdays, which handily coincides with XC having a higher proportion of travellers going beyond Sheff/Leeds in each direction.

 

[yorksrob]

Fair to say, Northern is a much improved beast compared to twenty, or even ten years ago (Goodness, have I been up here that long !).

 

[Freemo]

Sheffield/Leeds commuters at the start of this year had gone from an hourly choice between single XC units and two 158/150/144/156 (in rough order of likelihood) semi-fasts in 2019 to frequently doubled XC units, a fast 158 and two semi-fast 195/158s, so effectively an extra 300-350 seats and better quality stock. Until staffing issues kicked in and it was back to empty Voyagers being dragged around and the Flyer being cancelled as often as not.

At least we're properly shot of the Pacers. And the 195s are a game changer in heatwaves.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Someone mentioned Bradford to Manchester Airport services - there's no requirement as Bradford already has direct access to an international airport by the way of Yeadon Airstrip otherwise known as Leeds Bradford International Airport.

Sarcasm, I assume? Both on the suggestion it must be equivalent as an 'international airport' to Manchester, and also on the 'direct access' which, while technically true, is still, erm, limited, to put it politely.

I must have sold hundreds of tickets from Bradford Interchange to Manchester Airport, generally TPE Advances changing at Leeds or, if the times suited, via Huddersfield. I think there were some cheap Northern Advances too via the Calder Valley, but unsurprisingly they had few takers given the changes involved.

For my final year I was - in good faith - promising the direct Northern Connect service sometime in the future. In the meantime we had the odd extension of Calder Valley trains to Oxford Road, which generally just caused confusion and also managed to not connect with CLC services in either direction!

Presently, from home in Todmorden, a direct Manchester Airport service would obviously be nice, but there is a good connection into TPE at Victoria, and likewise to Liverpool. Calder Valley to Chester works well IMV, as there is no other train from Victoria, although of course if the Calder Valley to Manchester Airport option had been chosen it would have been possible to change at Oxford Road onto the TfW service to Chester and North Wales.

 

[thealexweb]

When Northern Connect was first announced the map incorrectly showed the Cumbria services going via Walken.
I see that map is in the video. I love it.

 

[Flying Claret]

Didn't Northern connect also promise 'refreshments' at all stations and a trolley service? I seem to remember the York Blackpool being part of this upgrade...

 

[sh24]

Given the huge subsidy that Northern receives, would Northern Connect just have swallowed even more cash? Bradford isn't exactly a dynamic growing regional hub so does it really need all that extra connectivity?

 

[Ballyheigue]

If anything, this needs to be actively discouraged. Why are Leeds to Manchester passengers being encouraged to use overcrowded 2 car trains? And therefore, taking up the space of people travelling to places like Bradford, where there is no magical second route from Manchester!

Because the full walk up fare on the direct route is a rip off, for an extra 30 mins I'd rather use the Calder Valley line and save quite a few quid.

 

[David Bullock]

Because the full walk up fare on the direct route is a rip off, for an extra 30 mins I'd rather use the Calder Valley line and save quite a few quid.

I travel pretty frequently between Leeds and Manchester, and this is something I sort of hope GBR will eventually deal with.

The whole point of the cheaper fares is to move people onto less busy services. In reality what it does is encourage people on to a short formed 195 which is already full and standing, while a 6 car TPE train - departing at the same time - is maybe half full. When it’s all the same operator (ish) maybe people can look at fares and move passengers to where the capacity actually is. Same applies with LNWR and Avanti.

I think that the new rolling stock, refurbs and some new routes have been good for northern. Even if we didn’t see all of the routes or the northern connect branding.

 

[Djgr]

Didn't Northern connect also promise 'refreshments' at all stations and a trolley service?

I think it was a Boris promise.

 

[yorksrob]

We could do with a refreshment trolly on the Little North Western.

 

[Ballyheigue]

I travel pretty frequently between Leeds and Manchester, and this is something I sort of hope GBR will eventually deal with.

The whole point of the cheaper fares is to move people onto less busy services. In reality what it does is encourage people on to a short formed 195 which is already full and standing, while a 6 car TPE train - departing at the same time - is maybe half full. When it’s all the same operator (ish) maybe people can look at fares and move passengers to where the capacity actually is. Same applies with LNWR and Avanti.

I think that the new rolling stock, refurbs and some new routes have been good for northern. Even if we didn’t see all of the routes or the northern connect branding.

There's also those who travel that way for better views as well, the views through Marsden are ok but I prefer the Calder Valley views.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Didn't Northern connect also promise 'refreshments' at all stations and a trolley service? I seem to remember the York Blackpool being part of this upgrade...

Indeed, along with extended opening hours for ticket offices - I think 2200 was the aim for Todmorden and Hebden Bridge, vice their current 2030. I believe vending machines were judged sufficient to fulfill the 'refreshments' requirement.

Funny that only a few years later, Todmorden was proposed for having no late turn at all.

 

[harz99]

Well yes as you've identified there is insufficient capacity on the ECML without significant interventions to run that as nice as it would be. And whilst I agree that 2tph all-stops would be a logical service pattern for the Coast we sadly live in the real world and I reckon what we've got is the best we're likely to get without major investment which is unlikely to be forthcoming anytime soon. I mean ideally you'd probably have 2tph stopping service and a fast service in the mix as I don't see why Stockton, Hartlepool, and Sunderland shouldn't have fast services linking them with Middlesbrough/Thornaby and Newcastle. But as the saying goes if wishes were horses...

That being said I don't agree that it's an especially poor service. It's not that much faster sure but ten minutes is ten minutes. If we're going to start quibbling about trying to speed up journeys where we can because "it's only a few minutes" we might as well give up before we start. Perhaps an extra all stops might be more useful and have generated more traffic. But at the same time I reckon Northern probably crunched the numbers and concluded that this was the best use of the extra resource they had.

They may have "crunched the numbers" but what they certainly didn't do was consult their existing passengers who travel from Billingham/Seaton Carew/Horden/Seaham when they decided to truncate the all stations service to either Newcastle or Middlesborough most of the day. This has added at least 30 minutes and a previously unnecessary change of trains to journeys beyond those points which had previously been possible on one train.

The difference in journey times varies during the day, 10 minutes being the maximum saved, many are only 8 or 9 minutes, but whichever it is rail is now a less attractive option to local people wishing to go from those coastal stations to say the Metro Centre for work or shopping.

 

[Flying Claret]

Indeed, along with extended opening hours for ticket offices - I think 2200 was the aim for Todmorden and Hebden Bridge, vice their current 2030. I believe vending machines were judged sufficient to fulfill the 'refreshments' requirement.

Funny that only a few years later, Todmorden was proposed for having no late turn at all.

There's also those who travel that way for better views as well, the views through Marsden are ok but I prefer the Calder Valley views.

I would love to see the stats of those people chosing the route for ' better views'

Must be fewer than 0.00001%

 

[Unber43]

I definitely think Middlesbrough-Newcastle fast train should just be a slow train its only like an extra 15 mins with so many extra stops.

As the train is always overcrowed, then it could go to a every 30 mins capacity.

 

[Anvil1984]

I definitely think Middlesbrough-Newcastle fast train should just be a slow train its only like an extra 15 mins with so many extra stops.

As the train is always overcrowed, then it could go to an every 30 mins capacity.

The train isn’t always overcrowded. Sunday to Friday there’s barely anyone standing. It’s mainly Saturday 10am to 2pm like many other lines

The 10 - 15 minute saving saving by missing 5 stops (less stops missed during rush hours) means you save a unit. Northern don’t have extra units to consider adding another one to this line

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Given the huge subsidy that Northern receives, would Northern Connect just have swallowed even more cash? Bradford isn't exactly a dynamic growing regional hub so does it really need all that extra connectivity?

Nothing to do with being a hub. It’s about passengers to and from one of Britain’s biggest 10-20 cities not having to change at Leeds or traipse across Manchester to get to other parts of the country. When you’re an old codger, or travelling with kids and/or luggage, changing trains isn’t much fun. Worries about getting a seat or missing connections just add to the stress.

 

[stevieinselby]

Wouldn’t that require extra trains? Where are you finding those?

The idea behind splitting the Hull to Halifax service at Leeds is that they will still run trains from Leeds to Hull and they will still run trains from Leeds to Halifax (merged with the overlapping Bradford to Huddersfield service) ... so joining the Leeds to Halifax/Huddersfield service with the Yorkshire Flyer wouldn't necessarily need any more units as you aren't running any extra mileage ... and they're likely saving a unit by removing the overlap between Bradford and Halifax ... but the bigger problem is that if they want to use the existing paths the the train to Sheffield leaves Leeds 7 minutes before (or 53 minutes after) the train arrives from Halifax, so they wouldn't be able to link the two services without a wholesale retimetabling, which is really not a sensible plan when there are frequent services on both legs of the journey and passengers can easily change at Leeds.

Personally I'm not a fan of the 'fast' train along the coast as it leaves places like Seaham, Horden, Billingham etc with a poor hourly service and these aren't little outback stations in the middle of nowhere. These are towns with 20k+ people and should have more than an hourly 2 car Class 156.

Agreed, the hourly "fast" services should be stopping at Seaham, Horden and Billingham as well as existing stops, with the hourly "slow" services also calling at Ryhope, Easington, Blackhall and Hart Warren.
It would be interesting to know how much of the increased ridership is because of the introduction of faster trains along the coast line, and how much is because of the introduction of more trains. My money would be on the latter being a significantly bigger factor, as I can't see a saving of max ~8 minutes having such a big impact as doubling the frequency ... which would suggest that doubling the frequency to most of the other stops along the line (I'll make an exception for Seaton Carew!) could gain significantly more passengers than would be lost by adding those stops in.

 

[Anvil1984]

as I can't see a saving of max ~8 minutes having such a big impact as doubling the frequency ... which would suggest that doubling the frequency to most of the other stops along the line (

It’s not 8 minutes max. It’s usually about 11 - 12 each way unless you get a poor path behind a Metro on the express. The express has a 26 minute turnaround at Middlesbrough which if it were a stopper would turn into a less than 5 minute one which you wouldn’t want for a service which comes from Carlisle so you would need an extra unit (again which Northern don’t have)

If this was the speculative suggestion thread. I’d be suggesting doing the opposite and trying to get the express service closer to an hour from Middlesbrough to Newcastle through increasing line speeds in certain areas and hopefully better paths Sunderland to Newcastle