Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?

[Wyrleybart]

This begs the question would it be better if Central Rivers were to turn round the 222s in the most trouble rather than letting EMR get used to a third (albeit similar) type of unit (221) on the main lines to Nottingham and Sheffield. The question in my mind would be how soon can these spare (ex Avanti) 332s be up and running - maybe they are 100% ready to go.

Still the issue of daily servicing of 221/222s to do on the route at Derby Etches Park. But if the major tasks go elsewhere that;s some relief. I think Central Rivers is not as inconvenient as other potential sites anyway ?.

Central Rivers is currently contracted to deliver 70 voyagers to XC and 5 222s to Lumo, admittedly not all on Central Rivers at the same time. Prior to August 2025 I believe there was a cap on the number of trains Alstom would supply which is why I understand that a 220 spent a number of months in Litchurch Lane. It served a dual role as the "pathfinder" for the voyager refurb project.

But are we missing something here ? Etches Park is just over the road from Litchurch Lane. which is a large covered engineering works, and is rail served. Probably has jacks and pits somewhere on site too.

How easy would it be for EMR / Hitachi to sign a contract with Alstom to maintain some 222s for say a year, even if fairly exams, fuelling cleaning etc. If Alstom drivers shunted the units around the site and drove them up to the entrance / exit signal EMR drivers would not need to learn any route. Alstom woudl then gain experience of the 222s before stripping them down for Scotrail overhauls.

After the delivery of 345071-345080, what next for Litchurch Lane until the jojnt venture with Hitachi on the HS2 stock ?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Central Rivers is currently contracted to deliver 70 voyagers to XC and 5 222s to Lumo, admittedly not all on Central Rivers at the same time. Prior to August 2025 I believe there was a cap on the number of trains Alstom would supply which is why I understand that a 220 spent a number of months in Litchurch Lane. It served a dual role as the "pathfinder" for the voyager refurb project.

But are we missing something here ? Etches Park is just over the road from Litchurch Lane. which is a large covered engineering works, and is rail served. Probably has jacks and pits somewhere on site too.

How easy would it be for EMR / Hitachi to sign a contract with Alstom to maintain some 222s for say a year, even if fairly exams, fuelling cleaning etc. If Alstom drivers shunted the units around the site and drove them up to the entrance / exit signal EMR drivers would not need to learn any route. Alstom woudl then gain experience of the 222s before stripping them down for Scotrail overhauls.

After the delivery of 345071-345080, what next for Litchurch Lane until the jojnt venture with Hitachi on the HS2 stock ?

Makes sense.

 

[Russel]

But are we missing something here ? Etches Park is just over the road from Litchurch Lane. which is a large covered engineering works, and is rail served. Probably has jacks and pits somewhere on site too.

This is a very good point actually, almost too obvious.

It's still EMR's responsibility in the end. They've currently contracted Hitachi to do the maintenance, but they could contract someone else to do it and kick Hitachi out. Whether that's sensible in the long term with them having agreed to lease Hitachi built stock is another matter - sometimes you have to go with the least worst option.

Agreed, I'm not sure why there are people in this thread jumping in to defend EMR and blame Hitachi fully, EMR are responsible for ensuring Hitachi are meeting the targets set in the contract and it's been very obvious for 18 months that that hasn't been happening, both need to shoulder the blame here.

 

[JamesT]

Could I just confirm, although the maintenance contract is now with Hitachi, the 222s are being maintained in the same place by the same people as before?

 

[Russel]

Could I just confirm, although the maintenance contract is now with Hitachi, the 222s are being maintained in the same place by the same people as before?

Yes same place and apart from maybe those right at the top of the food chain, the same people... Which makes it even less acceptable, you don't just forget overnight how to look after the trains you've looked after for 20 years because the name on your hi-vis changes.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Yes same place and apart from maybe those right at the top of the food chain, the same people... Which makes it even less acceptable, you don't just forget overnight how to look after the trains you've looked after for 20 years because the name on your hi-vis changes.

I suspect it’s not that easy. Were there any changes in priority, ie Hitachi targeting different metrics, perhaps mistakenly? Did the approach to holding spare parts change?

 

[43096]

Yes same place and apart from maybe those right at the top of the food chain, the same people... Which makes it even less acceptable, you don't just forget overnight how to look after the trains you've looked after for 20 years because the name on your hi-vis changes.

But what matters is what instructions you are receiving from management. Management of the depot has changed from Bombardier/Alstom to Hitachi. This is down to what Hitachi management are doing.

 

[Helvellyn]

Yes, an issue that hasn't been getting so much attention is the availability of the Connect fleet. The forum is probably not that far from needing to start a "stopgap" thread for the 360s!

It seems very rare that they are able to get the required 12 units out of bed in the morning (out of 20 - excluding the collision-damaged train). It looks like 10 today, but think I've seen it as low as 8, so 40-50% with short-forms on key commuter services like the 1717 and 1747 from St Pancras.

This is catastrophically bad for a relatively modern unit, especially if you look at comparable EMU, and I think it's been an issue since the 360s first came to EMR. A failure to improve this is in some ways a bigger black mark against the previous MD than a train contract signed by a predecessor that could not adequately incentivise/punish an incredibly badly-performing supplier.

It's realistically 17 out of 20 that should be available. Two refurbished units just seem to be used for the odd stakeholder event to show how nice they are, and a third is away for refurbishment. My hunch is they want the third back so that they can look to keep two out of three together in service, rather than mix and match refurbished/unrefurbished. However, it's still pretty dire that availability has dropped so low (Monday was 8 out of 17, so 2/3 of diagrams were running around as 4-car vice 8-car).

It's actually relevant to the Class 222/810 issues because if the 360 fleet availability was better one option might have been to see if certain Nottingham-St Pancras services could have effectively split at Kettering, with a change of train to an 8-car 360 then operating a non-stop St Pancras-Kettering shuttle.

With the short-forms/cancellations I've not actually looked but you'd hope EMR are offering minimal to no Advance fares on the 222 services between Kettering-St Pancras and funneling those passengers onto the Connect services instead.

 

[Teapot42]

With the short-forms/cancellations I've not actually looked but you'd hope EMR are offering minimal to no Advance fares on the 222 services between Kettering-St Pancras and funneling those passengers onto the Connect services instead.

A quick check suggests the advance tickets on the intercity services are much more expensive than those on the Connect. Not sure if that is normal though.

This is a point though that it doesn't appear EMR are managing capacity by reducing the number of advance tickets available. Plenty of cheap fares available for two weeks out on the CHD - STP route for example. While you could argue this would be making it more expensive for those who need to travel to do so, I've never found there were massive savings to be made with advances on that route. Cheapest I've seen was £37 each way, and £43 and up is more common. As the cheapest open return is £101 you typically save £10-20 with advances, if you save at all. Only real benefit is if you have to travel in the peaks.

Back on the subject, is the issue of unreliability not going to be more down to the maintenance regime for the 222s changing as they were due to leave? I can't see them scheduling in major work on stock that is in some cases due to have left already. It's a bit like if you plan to change your car in a year, you aren't going to pay for long-term fixes to any problems that crop up, and might not even bother getting a full service done.

Unfortunately in these cases problems can snowball as temporary bodges and fixes usually need re-doing, or you end up having to do the proper repair in the first place.

Another question - we've been told for a while now that more 222s are due to leave the fleet - do we know there are still 20 EMR / Hitachi can call on?

This is partly why it seems to me that the 221s would be better off going to Scotrail in return for allowing EMR to keep all the 222s for a longer period. Either way they'd be a temporary thing, but it seems to make more sense to keep the 222s they know than in effect swapping 6 out for 221s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

.........................

Back on the subject, is the issue of unreliability not going to be more down to the maintenance regime for the 222s changing as they were due to leave? I can't see them scheduling in major work on stock that is in some cases due to have left already. It's a bit like if you plan to change your car in a year, you aren't going to pay for long-term fixes to any problems that crop up, and might not even bother getting a full service done.

Unfortunately in these cases problems can snowball as temporary bodges and fixes usually need re-doing, or you end up having to do the proper repair in the first place.

This is what I believe. The 222s were in planned run down and Etches Park is concentrating on 810s. All fine and dandy until the 810s don't work so need more attention and the 222s get used too much (more than the planned attention allowed for).

Another question - we've been told for a while now that more 222s are due to leave the fleet - do we know there are still 20 EMR / Hitachi can call on?

This is partly why it seems to me that the 221s would be better off going to Scotrail in return for allowing EMR to keep all the 222s for a longer period. Either way they'd be a temporary thing, but it seems to make more sense to keep the 222s they know than in effect swapping 6 out for 221s.

Same problem for Scotrail as the 221s will be the odd one out for them as will soon be replaced by 222s.

If Central Rivers are to maintain the 221s then that is a lot more convenient if EMR are using them than for use in Scotland.

 

[Teapot42]

Same problem for Scotrail as the 221s will be the odd one out for them as will soon be replaced by 222s.

True, but they would be available sooner so could also allow at least some of the HSTs to be withdrawn. That would gain some favour with the unions. As they'd be in use with Scotrail longer under this scenario, any works associated with reactivating them would become more cost effective.

If Central Rivers are to maintain the 221s then that is a lot more convenient if EMR are using them than for use in Scotland.

Where would the 222s be maintained when moved to Scotrail? If there isn't an existing depot that can do them, then gaining experience on the similar 221s might be valuable.

A lot hinges on what the plan is with the 221s if / when they come to EMR. Will the be used alongside the 222s to boost fleet numbers, or would they be used to allow 222s to leave the fleet as planned and really just be to avoid the scenario of having even less units on hand to cover services.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Yes same place and apart from maybe those right at the top of the food chain, the same people... Which makes it even less acceptable, you don't just forget overnight how to look after the trains you've looked after for 20 years because the name on your hi-vis changes.

Quite agree. A motivated team keep doing what they are paid to do by their bosses, so if they have spent X years maintaining 222s, then nothing will have changed in their workplace. UNLESS Hitachi have taken them off 222 maintenance and focused them on 810s.

The facts are
1) The 810s are years late and clearly have major problems
2) The 222s are tired and should have been withdrawn by their owners
Because of 1) the 222s are still in traffic, but in normal UK railway fleet leasing the 222s should be handed back to the owner in working order.

All of this is Hitachi's responsibility, even though others have said EMR should be "enforcing" Hitachi.

 

[Teapot42]

Quite agree. A motivated team keep doing what they are paid to do by their bosses, so if they have spent X years maintaining 222s, then nothing will have changed in their workplace. UNLESS Hitachi have taken them off 222 maintenance and focused them on 810s.
...
... but in normal UK railway fleet leasing the 222s should be handed back to the owner in working order.

How is working order defined?

Would EMR / Hitachi be expected to put them through exams and periodic servicing even though they are due to be extensively refurbished once off-lease?

Had the 810s not been coming, I'm sure the 222s would have been undergoing a rolling program of refurbishment with EMR at the moment, possibly even completed by now. There is a difference between patching up and keeping in service, and properly refurbishing to extend life. No matter how good the Etches Park team is, parts of the 222s are coming to the point where they are at the end of their service life and need replacing. That's not something you can do overnight, it needs planning in and the unit being out of service for an extended period.

Maybe that is another approach actually - the 221s could go to Scotrail and the refurbished 222s could temporarily go back in to EMR service once complete. As they are already on with some it might not be long before the first is ready, and EMR don't need the type training etc that Scotrail would.

 

[Zomboid]

All of this is Hitachi's responsibility, even though others have said EMR should be "enforcing" Hitachi

There may well be contractual levers that can be pulled, and they may well be being pulled. But EMR being compensated for poor performance of a depot won't help passengers when the trains remain broken.

 

[Russel]

But what matters is what instructions you are receiving from management. Management of the depot has changed from Bombardier/Alstom to Hitachi. This is down to what Hitachi management are doing.

Which is ultimately down to EMR given they are paying Hitachi to provide a service.

 

[Peter Sarf]

True, but they would be available sooner so could also allow at least some of the HSTs to be withdrawn. That would gain some favour with the unions. As they'd be in use with Scotrail longer under this scenario, any works associated with reactivating them would become more cost effective.

Where would the 222s be maintained when moved to Scotrail? If there isn't an existing depot that can do them, then gaining experience on the similar 221s might be valuable.

Well. Most likely the Scotrail 222s will be maintained at the same depots as the Scotrail HSTs are.

One depot responsible for two fleets while the transition goes on is nothing new !.

A lot hinges on what the plan is with the 221s if / when they come to EMR. Will the be used alongside the 222s to boost fleet numbers, or would they be used to allow 222s to leave the fleet as planned and really just be to avoid the scenario of having even less units on hand to cover services.

I reckon the 221s will replace the 222s that are already unusable.

Of course someone somewhere has to get those 222s back into a state suitable for Scotrail. Normally the ROSCo expects the user to hand them back in good condition if midlife. But perhaps whoever is refurbishing the 222s for Scotrail can be paid by Hitachi via EMR or possibly directly. Even then does this money go to the workshops via the ROSCo or directly.

Question - Is the 222 refurbishment for Scotrail just of passenger facing aspects of the 222s or also a refurbishment of running gear and engines ?.

 

[liamf656]

Question - Is the 222 refurbishment for Scotrail just of passenger facing aspects of the 222s or also a refurbishment of running gear and engines ?.

There was a mention of them getting stop-start technology so maybe that is part of a wider refurb of the engines?

 

[Helvellyn]

If the 221s are coming I'd wager that they will be maintained at Central Rivers, leased to CrossCountry, and a flexible sub-lease will be in place for the units to be used by EMR.

EMR would adjust diagrams to keep the 221s on a fixed set of duties, that will include ECS moves to/from Central Rivers (maybe with XC Drivers for those).

Extra slack in the 222 fleet would help Etches Park get on top of the worst defects. Hitachi will be under pressure to sort the 810s and whilst it is still Transport UK running the TOC I'd place another wager that DfT and DFTO are taking a close interest because this is DFTO's problem next year.

 

[43102EMR]

Central Rivers is currently contracted to deliver 70 voyagers to XC and 5 222s to Lumo, admittedly not all on Central Rivers at the same time. Prior to August 2025 I believe there was a cap on the number of trains Alstom would supply which is why I understand that a 220 spent a number of months in Litchurch Lane. It served a dual role as the "pathfinder" for the voyager refurb project.

But are we missing something here ? Etches Park is just over the road from Litchurch Lane. which is a large covered engineering works, and is rail served. Probably has jacks and pits somewhere on site too.

How easy would it be for EMR / Hitachi to sign a contract with Alstom to maintain some 222s for say a year, even if fairly exams, fuelling cleaning etc. If Alstom drivers shunted the units around the site and drove them up to the entrance / exit signal EMR drivers would not need to learn any route. Alstom woudl then gain experience of the 222s before stripping them down for Scotrail overhauls.

After the delivery of 345071-345080, what next for Litchurch Lane until the jojnt venture with Hitachi on the HS2 stock ?

The GC 221s also make the occasional appearance at Central Rivers, though unsure if that’s for repairs or maintenance work that the units can’t receive at Crofton for whatever reason.

 

[Wyrleybart]

How is working order defined?

It is whatever the the TOC contracted with the Rosco. We don't know that, but we do know that generally rolling stock has a handback examination. Not sure how this is done but where the CAF Mk5s were concerned it apparently took a lot of work for thew Rosco to received them back.

Had the 810s not been coming, I'm sure the 222s would have been undergoing a rolling program of refurbishment with EMR at the moment, possibly even completed by now. There is a difference between patching up and keeping in service, and properly refurbishing to extend life.

But life extension is not in question is it ? Alstom are putting the XC voyager fleets through Litchurch Lane but it is not life extension. It is mostly a refresh of the customer facing stuff. 222s being just slightly newer than 222s are also half life rather than life extension - that term suggesting the intended life is being extended.

No matter how good the Etches Park team is, parts of the 222s are coming to the point where they are at the end of their service life and need replacing. That's not something you can do overnight, it needs planning in and the unit being out of service for an extended period.

Maybe that is another approach actually - the 221s could go to Scotrail and the refurbished 222s could temporarily go back in to EMR service once complete. As they are already on with some it might not be long before the first is ready, and EMR don't need the type training etc that Scotrail would.

But Scotrail don't want 221s. They have contracted to accept an overhauled fleet of 222s and that is what they are paying for. It is entirely Hitachi's problem to transition EMR to class 810s and hand the 222s back to the fleet owner.

 

[AndrewE]

Wasn't there some reference up-thread to Etches Park having some other classes of DMU to maintain as well? (If I remembered that right) could these be farmed out elsewhere so that EP could devote more time to whatever they do to 222s for EMT? Granted they might need some extra racks of specialist tools, plus get the staff up to speed on them, but it might be a way forward...

 

[Teapot42]

But life extension is not in question is it ? Alstom are putting the XC voyager fleets through Litchurch Lane but it is not life extension. It is mostly a refresh of the customer facing stuff. 222s being just slightly newer than 222s are also half life rather than life extension - that term suggesting the intended life is being extended.

While I'm not party to exactly what is planned, I'd be very surprised if there isn't a thorough mechanical overhaul as well. I'd imagine Scotrail will be expecting them in pretty much as new condition and not be expecting to have to go straight into replacing parts that have a known service life for example.

But Scotrail don't want 221s. They have contracted to accept an overhauled fleet of 222s and that is what they are paying for. It is entirely Hitachi's problem to transition EMR to class 810s and hand the 222s back to the fleet owner.

I appreciate that. My point is has anyone considered saying to them 'You can have these trains as a temporary thing x months earlier than you'd be getting the 222s. That means you can retire the HSTs your traincrew don't like, and as you'd be doing us a favour we'll cut you a deal on price'.

A practical solution that allows Scotrail to keep the unions happy, EMR to maintain some semblance of a service, and Hitachi a bit more time to understand where things have gone wrong.

Perfectly possible Scotrail would say no, but it would avoid EMR having to introduce yet another variable in to an already complex problem.

 

[Peter Sarf]

While I'm not party to exactly what is planned, I'd be very surprised if there isn't a thorough mechanical overhaul as well. I'd imagine Scotrail will be expecting them in pretty much as new condition and not be expecting to have to go straight into replacing parts that have a known service life for example.

I appreciate that. My point is has anyone considered saying to them 'You can have these trains as a temporary thing x months earlier than you'd be getting the 222s. That means you can retire the HSTs your traincrew don't like, and as you'd be doing us a favour we'll cut you a deal on price'.

A practical solution that allows Scotrail to keep the unions happy, EMR to maintain some semblance of a service, and Hitachi a bit more time to understand where things have gone wrong.

Perfectly possible Scotrail would say no, but it would avoid EMR having to introduce yet another variable in to an already complex problem.

My expectation is that Scotrail will be seeing variables in their own complex problem soon enough (HSTs to 222s). I doubt they would be keen at all on having another variable in the name of 221s added to that complexity (crew training and maintenance skills).

It would be easier to keep the Scotrail end as simple as possible, as in unchanged apart from the delays they may already get. Let the mess be contained at EMR instead of spreading it to another TOC. Especially as it seems likely that Etches Park will not suffer any more complexity as the 221s could be maintained to a greater or lesser extent at Central Rivers * who have PLENTY of experience with them. Scotrail do not want to have to learn a new fleet- both for operation and maintenance.

* = After all where will these extra 221s be maintained once they get to Cross Country where they are planned to go ?.

Contract wise it was just add more complexity as well if Scotrail were to get 221s temporarily.

 

[Teapot42]

According to this link, the refurbishment for the 222s for Scotrail includes:
...an extensive maintenance regime before they are delivered, including overhauls of critical components, such as engines.

I don't know how long this would take, but the 6 used for training won't be refurbished straight away, meaning units only need to leave EMR service in time to be ready by the second half of 2027. I'd imagine the turnaround time will depend on how much money is thrown at them, so that's another avenue for EMR / Hitachi to explore.

 

[cactustwirly]

Wasn't there some reference up-thread to Etches Park having some other classes of DMU to maintain as well? (If I remembered that right) could these be farmed out elsewhere so that EP could devote more time to whatever they do to 222s for EMT? Granted they might need some extra racks of specialist tools, plus get the staff up to speed on them, but it might be a way forward...

170s and 158s are maintained by Etches Park too - basically the entire Diesel fleet

There is also Eastcroft in Nottingham, not sure how much maintenance happens there

 

[AndrewE]

170s and 158s are maintained by Etches Park too - basically the entire Diesel fleet

but are neither of those classes maintained anywhere else in the country? My point was that their maintenance could perhaps be transferred elsewhere to release capacity at Etches Park..

 

[bunnahabhain]

Wasn't there some reference up-thread to Etches Park having some other classes of DMU to maintain as well? (If I remembered that right) could these be farmed out elsewhere so that EP could devote more time to whatever they do to 222s for EMT? Granted they might need some extra racks of specialist tools, plus get the staff up to speed on them, but it might be a way forward...

158 and 170s are maintained by EMR staff in the South Shed, the North shed is Hitachi staff who look after the 222 and 810 fleet. They are generally kept very separate from my experience with only the wheel lathe being used by all (and external companies too).

 

[D365]

but are neither of those classes maintained anywhere else in the country? My point was that their maintenance could perhaps be transferred elsewhere to release capacity at Etches Park..

Etches Park South Shed isn't big enough for servicing Class 22x / Class 810 5 car units.

 

[AndrewE]

Etches Park South Shed isn't big enough for servicing Class 22x / Class 810 5 car units.

Oh well...

 

[Qwerty133]

My expectation is that Scotrail will be seeing variables in their own complex problem soon enough (HSTs to 222s). I doubt they would be keen at all on having another variable in the name of 221s added to that complexity (crew training and maintenance skills).

It would be easier to keep the Scotrail end as simple as possible, as in unchanged apart from the delays they may already get. Let the mess be contained at EMR instead of spreading it to another TOC. Especially as it seems likely that Etches Park will not suffer any more complexity as the 221s could be maintained to a greater or lesser extent at Central Rivers * who have PLENTY of experience with them. Scotrail do not want to have to learn a new fleet- both for operation and maintenance.

* = After all where will these extra 221s be maintained once they get to Cross Country where they are planned to go ?.

Contract wise it was just add more complexity as well if Scotrail were to get 221s temporarily.

I think that both overstates the problems that would be caused at Scotrail if the 222s were delayed and understates the extent of the issues at EMR. On a daily basis Scotrail are not facing daily cancellations or failures in service and there is nothing to suggest the HSTs are likely to give up on exactly the planned introduction date for the 222s.
Whilst I would agree that there is absolutely no point in Scotrail taking any 221s as a short term measure there is absolutely no reason that the HSTs couldn’t remain in service for several months longer than originally planned to allow the 222s to remain at EMR for the foreseeable future.