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Train drivers’ decades-long ticket fraud ‘cost taxpayer millions

YoungJohnson

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It's sad that immoral behaviour appears to have been normalised.

When I first read this, I assumed it was something to do with trying to get free leisure travel (which all railway workers should have in my opinion but that's not relevant).
Non story and it's about time some of these ludicrous restrictions on duty travel were axed. They serve no purpose to anyone.
 
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Watershed

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Were they aware that presenting a diagram showing a service that doesn't exist in order to gain free travel was not legitimate? I'm going to come down firmly on the side of "yes" to that.
Did the diagrams show non-existent services though? We don't have that level of detail at the moment.
 

AlterEgo

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Did the diagrams show non-existent services though? We don't have that level of detail at the moment.
It doesn't really matter. The drivers knew they were not going to drive a train that day; they were going to appointments. It would have been obvious this was a "fiddle", though they are much less culpable here than the company who instituted the practice and benefited from it.
 

Watershed

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It doesn't really matter. The drivers knew they were not going to drive a train that day; they were going to appointments. It would have been obvious this was a "fiddle", though they are much less culpable here than the company who instituted the practice and benefited from it.
I can say from personal experience that a lot of TOC staff are quite uninterested and thus unaware of the details of the staff travel rules, so knowledge of wrongdoing should not be assumed.
 

YoungJohnson

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It certainly reads as such - knocking up fake rosters is hardly inadvertent. The driver knows he's not driving, and the manager knows he's not, and that manager is in essence leading this.

Alternative headline if this weren't happening: "railway companies ferry drivers around in taxis due to high rail fares"...
You jest but:

Train operators spend £13m on hiring taxis to move staff around the country

And

Network Rail staff splurge MILLIONS on cars, flights and taxis

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I can say from personal experience that a lot of TOC staff are quite uninterested and thus unaware of the details of the staff travel rules, so knowledge of wrongdoing should not be assumed.
And the same goes for managers too. Most of them do not know or do not really care about the minutiae and are more concerned with safety, customer service or keeping the train service running.
 
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sprunt

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When I first read this, I assumed it was something to do with trying to get free leisure travel (which all railway workers should have in my opinion but that's not relevant).
Non story and it's about time some of these ludicrous restrictions on duty travel were axed. They serve no purpose to anyone.

A government owned company was defrauding private companies. How is that a non-story?
I can say from personal experience that a lot of TOC staff are quite uninterested and thus unaware of the details of the staff travel rules, so knowledge of wrongdoing should not be assumed.
It's their job to know the details! And whether they knew the details or not, they were fully aware that they were presenting a document stating that they were going to be driving a train that they were not going to be driving. If the details alleged are true, knowledge of wrongdoing is not assumed, it's absolutely evident.
And the same goes for managers too. Most of them do not know or do not really care about the minutiae and are more concerned with safety, customer service or keeping the train service running.
That they weren't supposed to draw up fraudulent diagrams is not "minutiae".

The excuses being made for this on this thread are astonishing. If the story in the OP is broadly true then it's utterly inexcusable on the part of all involved.
 

AlterEgo

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I can say from personal experience that a lot of TOC staff are quite uninterested and thus unaware of the details of the staff travel rules, so knowledge of wrongdoing should not be assumed.
It is very obvious if you are being given a fake diagram for a train you are not going to work that it cannot possibly be legitimate.
 

YoungJohnson

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A government owned company was defrauding private companies. How is that a non-story?

It's their job to know the details! And whether they knew the details or not, they were fully aware that they were presenting a document stating that they were going to be driving a train that they were not going to be driving. If the details alleged are true, knowledge of wrongdoing is not assumed, it's absolutely evident.

That they weren't supposed to draw up fraudulent diagrams is not "minutiae".

The excuses being made for this on this thread are astonishing. If the story in the OP is broadly true then it's utterly inexcusable on the part of all involved.
I suspect many cases it is simply no one knows it exists - the attitude will be - well it's duty travel isn't it. Or it's been interpreted as all duty travel needs either a diagram or letter of explanation, and I wouldn't be shocked if a manager has phoned up head office in the past and been told "print off a diagram, we don't have time to issue letters", because head office aren't even aware of it and it's just become accepted custom. Indeed in the past I have seen letters issues by operators to attend these things which say "travel free with this letter and show it to any staff on board a long with your pass" - with nothing about "don't use duty passes".

The rule itself is petty and archaic. Some would say that rules should be followed even if they are actively stupid, but many of these are buried in pages in documents that the average manager or union representative couldn't point you to. For example it even used to be a breach of travel rights (no idea if it is any more) for staff to use the wifi on Cross Country unless they had first class passes. The idea that staff crammed in the first class vestibule on 4 car voyagers (which they shouldn't technically be in the first place if we are going by the letter of the law - but then - what fork out for taxis if they refuse to get on packed trains - so no one says anything about it) abided by that or even knew about it in the first place is unlikely.

Equally the reverse has happened where operators have withdrawn travel rights and told no one, or extended them and told no one or it has been buried on page 56 of the monthy or whatever internal revenue document which the guards and RPOs only get routine access to, and don't read in detail themselves. The average Train Crew Supervisor is not going to specifically be spending their time trying to locate and digest all that.

The average member of the public will just say "what they don't get free travel? How silly."

Effectively staff travel is a byzantine mess, much like public ticketing or indeed most things in Britain - how many passengers are aware of the routing guide - let alone read it! GBR needs to re-do both from scratch once it takes over.
 

sprunt

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Because the title of the article includes "cost taxpayer millions", which clearly can't be the case.
That the headline doesn't reflect the details of the story doesn't in itself make it a non-story. The story is that (a branch of) the government was systematically defrauding private companies. Not in any way a non-story.

And again, the idea that the drivers didn't know what was going on is ridiculous. It's clear from reading this forum that train drivers need to be highly intelligent, and wouldn't be able to do the job if they weren't.
 

YoungJohnson

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It is very obvious if you are being given a fake diagram for a train you are not going to work that it cannot possibly be legitimate.
I wouldn't be at all shocked if an RPO in the past phoned control and gone "Are DRS staff allowed to travel on our trains, yes this man has ID (likely uniform), a safety critical card and what appears to be a diagram - yes that's fine is it, no problem". Or control have phoned DRS who have said "yes this person is employed with us and on railway business today" and then it has filtered down as - yes we've confirmed they can travel - which then gets spread around all the staff. "Yes we get DRS staff travelling, checked it out - with our control and theirs no problem". And then if control have confirmed it, drivers and managers within DRS assume that there is no issue themselves.

And on the flipside most staff won't care less which railway staff travel on their trains and where to - at the end of the day it's a "competent person" to them if nothing else whether you agree with that or not.
 

etr221

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For legitimate, correct, FOC 'duty travel' against a correct roster (as wasn't the case for the travel in the Telegraph story), am I correct in assuming that - somehow - some payment is made by the FOCs to the TOCs (directly or otherwise)? Is this just a 'lump sum', or is it, to greater or lesser extent, calculated based on the travel actually made?
 

AngusH

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A million isn't that difficult.

A few people making journeys each year and the total adds up.

Example numbers (with various assumptions obviously)

cost per journey80
journeys per person per year12
number of people34
total per year£32,640
years (1995-2026)31
Total£1,011,840
 

Hairyspotter

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This is the nonsensical industry we have today. A member of traincrew, employed by a government subsidiary, on duty, travelling for work related purposes, whose employer is required to pay a TOC, who in turn paid an amount to the government (pre-pandemic, anyway). Obviously there is a clear definition between leisure/residential and duty travel, and using a duty pass for other than duty purposes is misuse and not in question here, but duty should mean just that.

There used to be a rulebook instruction whereby staff travelling were required to identify themselves to the guard of the train and provide assistance if requested. I'm not sure I'd be so willing to assist if I or my colleagues were on the receiving end of this sort of treatment from a member of the much vaunted "railway family"
 

YoungJohnson

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It is also worth noting that some operators do issue actual diagrams for non driving work. Some have "Safety Brief" as an actual printed diagram just to muddy the water even further. Presumably this was because Safety Briefs weren't always at a home station or location.
 

The exile

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As others have pointed out, not sure what reciprocal benefit could be offered by DRS.
Why does there need to be? Unless they are actually preventing non rail-staff from travelling carrying them for free doesn’t cost any more than not carrying them.
That, of course, does not excuse fraudulent practices in the system as it exists.
 

Tetchytyke

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This is a link to the original article in the Telegraph that doesn't require a subscription (or dodgy tactics to get around the paywall) to read.
Just turn Javascript off in your browser and you get around the Telegraph's paywall. It's not "dodgy tactics."

As for the story itself, DRS manager/s used roster cards to allow their staff to travel for non-driving work activity. There's no evidence that "train drivers" were defrauding anybody. Perhaps DRS were, perhaps they weren't.

As for "costing taxpayers millions," actually it is all neutral in the end anyway. There's not a single private TOC which has ever generated a net surplus to the Treasury. So we're really just arguing about which cost centre the cost of the work-related travel was applied to. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

The Daily Telegraph distorting a story for political reasons, I know, I'm as shocked as everyone else.
 

ianBR

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Let’s see if they get the same treatment that passengers who are prosecuted for having a slightly out of date railcard face.

I very much doubt it.
 
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Another thing people (especially those working in the media) won't understand, is how ridiculous some staff travel rules are.
for example... not being allowed to use your duty pass to open ticket barriers, but having to use your non-contractual leisure staff travel pass (when on duty) instead!
And yet some TOCs set their barriers to reject other TOCs staff leisure smart cards, so you have to use your duty card to open them when working a train through certain stations!
 

NeakPed

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And yet some TOCs set their barriers to reject other TOCs staff leisure smart cards, so you have to use your duty card to open them when working a train through certain stations!
Which is correct. You do not use your Staff Leisure Card to operate barriers when on duty. One of the basics of staff travel.
 

Stossgebet

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Which is correct. You do not use your Staff Leisure Card to operate barriers when on duty. One of the basics of staff travel.
Not according to the paperwork (rules) that come with the Duty Pass.
It explicitly says that they are only for use with an accompanying diagram, and should not be used as a gate pass.
The RDG DAT eules state this:
Section 15.
Point 6.
Says this.

  • As a gate pass. (i.e. if you are commuting or on a leisure journey with a season ticket, Residential Pass or non-smart enabled TOC card or pass, or working at or passing through a station, you cannot use a DAT card to open the gates).

So, my understanding of that, is that if working at or changing trains at a station, you must not use you Duty Authority to Travel card to open ticket barriers. Barriers which you may need to go through to access mess rooms ect.
 

Krokodil

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99% of train conductors will not study a freight duty card or duty authority to travel card closely, unless they believe it is being used by someone other than an authorised person. Same as how they wouldn't closely study a staff leisure card or staff travel card. Revenue might take more interest, but again, beyond checking that it is being used by the correct person, it probably won't be looked into further.

Also, staff travelling in DRS / DBC / Freightliner etc uniform are often passed without even looking at their travel documents. They may also be passed on their company ID if in uniform, and it's just assumed that they are carrying an appropriate freight duty card and schedule card or letter of authority confirming some operational duty.
Though if attending a medical they may well be out of uniform, and thus arouse suspicion.

Oh yes, you're right.

Back to the original point that it's daft that travel to a medical isn't a legitimate use of a duty travel card in the first place then.
I can't remember what the rules were for TOC staff attending medicals, frankly an appointment letter in conjunction with the duty pass ought to be sufficient.

Because the title of the article includes "cost taxpayer millions", which clearly can't be the case.
Quite the reverse in fact.

Freight drivers are allowed to take free passenger journeys, using a so-called Freight Travel Duty Pass, if they are on their way to collect a goods train. They must also carry documentary evidence proving this is the purpose of their trip.
An old colleague who did a stint for Freightliner Heavy Haul said that they never used to be given diagrams, they'd be told what work they're doing over the phone. Used to cause issues, particularly with XC where there were a few incidents of freight drivers being refused travel and delays being caused. I understand that this led to the introduction of duty passes.
 

Starmill

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Though if attending a medical they may well be out of uniform, and thus arouse suspicion.
It would be very suspicious if someone were supposedly driving but not in uniform or at least branded clothes yes. Perhaps they were instructed to always wear it. I don't know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I can't remember what the rules were for TOC staff attending medicals, frankly an appointment letter in conjunction with the duty pass ought to be sufficient.
If a duty card for a specific operator is held, it's generally any form of duty travel, including by a member of office based staff who has no operational role. If a duty authority to travel card for any operator is held, generally it's live operational duty only. In practice that means working a train or route refreshing. It's possible that attending a driver school would qualify for this, but attending medicals, meetings, on release for trade union time and so forth wouldn't.
 

NeakPed

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Not according to the paperwork (rules) that come with the Duty Pass.
It explicitly says that they are only for use with an accompanying diagram, and should not be used as a gate pass.
The RDG DAT eules state this:
Section 15.
Point 6.
Says this.


  • As a gate pass. (i.e. if you are commuting or on a leisure journey with a season ticket, Residential Pass or non-smart enabled TOC card or pass, or working at or passing through a station, you cannot use a DAT card to open the gates).

So, my understanding of that, is that if working at or changing trains at a station, you must not use you Duty Authority to Travel card to open ticket barriers. Barriers which you may need to go through to access mess rooms ect.
In which case you manually show your diagram & DAT to pass through the gate.
In reality, gateline staff at the majority of stations will open gates for you.
 

Coleridge

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Just turn Javascript off in your browser and you get around the Telegraph's paywall. It's not "dodgy tactics."

As for the story itself, DRS manager/s used roster cards to allow their staff to travel for non-driving work activity. There's no evidence that "train drivers" were defrauding anybody. Perhaps DRS were, perhaps they weren't.

As for "costing taxpayers millions," actually it is all neutral in the end anyway. There's not a single private TOC which has ever generated a net surplus to the Treasury. So we're really just arguing about which cost centre the cost of the work-related travel was applied to. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

The Daily Telegraph distorting a story for political reasons, I know, I'm as shocked as everyone else.

Turning off Javascript is exactly what I was referring to by "dodgy tactics" - it's circumventing a paywall in order to view the newspaper for free. (Although it's a pretty poor paywall.)

I'm no fan of the Telegraph, but I don't think it is necessarily distorting anything in its reporting of this story: it's pretty clear that the drivers knew exactly what they were doing. And I disagree strongly that it doesn't matter because it's "only" a few million over several years, as some people have said. The whole thing stinks.
 

Snow1964

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So what is the solution, does the company fess up, fill in a spreadsheet of how many fares were avoided to each Operator and pay up.

Travelling without a valid ticket is normally offered at the full anytime rate, so presumably that should now be offered by the company to each Operator who was deprived of fare revenue. If not the company paying up, do they chase the drivers who travelled to pay up for their missing tickets, if the drivers then want to submit it as expenses that is separate transaction.

From memory, fraud (and systematically falsifying duty records would fall under that) has a statute of limitations of 20 years.
 

Starmill

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Which is correct. You do not use your Staff Leisure Card to operate barriers when on duty. One of the basics of staff travel.
Yes although many people will have one card valid for duty, leisure and residential.
 

AlterEgo

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From memory, fraud (and systematically falsifying duty records would fall under that) has a statute of limitations of 20 years.
There is no statute of limitations to a criminal prosecution of fraud.

The statute of limitations for claiming fraudulent losses via a civil route is six years after *discovery*.
 

styles

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From memory, fraud (and systematically falsifying duty records would fall under that) has a statute of limitations of 20 years.
It's triable either way, which means there is no time limit on bringing it to court.
 

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