SWR cracking down on Vauxhall - Waterloo doughnuts/short fares - Also GTR

[Western Gaffer]

I deliberately didn't use that scenario.
Real financial hardship should - in my view - be a cutback on the non-essential leisure, "nice to have" food & drink, vapes...
Genuine financial hardship should not start with a behaviour of fare-evasion, shoplifting, etc.
That's why I believe the "risk versus reward" of fare-evasion is initially driven by the factors I mentioned in my previous post.

There was a thread on here the other day, since deleted, where the fare evader asserted that he was doing so because of not having money to get to work, while in parallel being concerned about a criminal record impacting his ability to visit his partner in the States regularly, so an element of irrationality definitely creeps in!

 

[Kite159]

I wonder if there’s a good case to just stop selling Vauxhall to Waterloo as e-tickets. Anyone definitely wanting to make a real journey between the two stations, (avoiding Oyster or contactless PAYG), could always use a TVM, or TOD - collect at Vauxhall only.

Did the ‘inventors’ of the e-ticket system never realise that they’d designed such a useful enabler for people to short fare? Seems to me nearly every new great idea comes with additional scope for fare dodging.

Sorry if already answered further on, but that is what they have done. Vauxhall to Waterloo changed to being ToD only a few weeks ago (and probably has already caught a few off-guard when they fail to notice they needed to collect the tickets from a machine rather than expecting a PDF).

But like someone mentioned, chances are those pay when challenged folk will switch to using Queenstown Road - Waterloo or even Clapham Junction - Waterloo e-tickets, without thinking about the digital fingerprint they are leaving behind for when they get caught out

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry if already answered further on, but that is what they have done. Vauxhall to Waterloo changed to being ToD only a few weeks ago (and probably has already caught a few off-guard).

Today’s Times (paywalled) has a similar article about GTR withdrawing selected e-tickets ‘around their major hubs’...

 

[Kite159]

Today’s Times (paywalled) has a similar article about GTR withdrawing selected e-tickets ‘around their major hubs’...

And I'm sure Northern have done something similar in the past, withdrawing selected e-tickets for known short fare hotspots where the trains are too busy for effective revenue protection (i.e. Harrogate line) or are run with a pair of non gangway units (popular with the "Front Unit Aimers").

 

[43096]

Queenstown Road is effectively limited to the "international" gatelines at Waterloo.

It isn't. It's a mix of the high number platforms in the main shed (16-19) and platforms 20-24. If you're being pedantic, Queenstown Road also has trains to the low numbered platforms at Waterloo as the Kingston rounders call.

 

[Haywain]

And I'm sure Northern have done something similar in the past, withdrawing selected e-tickets for known short fare hotspots where the trains are too busy for effective revenue protection (i.e. Harrogate line) or are run with a pair of non gangway units (popular with the "Front Unit Aimers").

I believe that Northern did it with Burley Park but as an unstaffed and barrier-less station that is a little different to Vauxhall.

 

[dosxuk]

What about the fare evader thinking that they're so clever, easy for them to win against the stupid railway and its stupid staff?
And, if challenged, thinking that they are so clever that they'll be able to talk their way out of it?
Narcissism perhaps.

Don't forget those who think that if they get caught they'll just get a penalty fare and that's the end of the matter. Comes up all the time in these pages when people are confused why one wasn't issued when they get caught short faring, despite all the signs warning of them.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Money saving?

I deliberately didn't use that scenario.
Real financial hardship should - in my view - be a cutback on the non-essential leisure, "nice to have" food & drink, vapes...
Genuine financial hardship should not start with a behaviour of fare-evasion, shoplifting, etc.
That's why I believe the "risk versus reward" of fare-evasion is initially driven by the factors I mentioned in my previous post.

It's possible that fare dodgers don't share your moral code and so may indeed see saving on travel as a place to start when money's a bit short. And many people may want to save money before 'genuine financial hardship' kicks in: even though I don't agree with the conclusion, I can see the appeal of buying a couple of drinks (or low value treat of your choice) rather than paying the proper train fare.

 

[Sonic1234]

Interestingly the new ticket gate being trialled could take photo of the individuals which would open up more enforcement opportunities.

It's still socially acceptable to wear a mask

Today’s Times (paywalled) has a similar article about GTR withdrawing selected e-tickets ‘around their major hubs’...

GTR e-ticketing is already a mess. Probably they weren't enabled to start with, or in some strange way like a return is e-ticketable, but a single isn't.

And of course, we only hear about those fare dodgers on the forum who get caught and want to make amends. We don't hear about those who are good at it and either don't get caught or weasel out of any action.

 

[John R]

There was a thread on here the other day, since deleted, where the fare evader asserted that he was doing so because of not having money to get to work, while in parallel being concerned about a criminal record impacting his ability to visit his partner in the States regularly, so an element of irrationality definitely creeps in!

I guess doughnutting is a bit more difficult on a transatlantic flight...

 

[SuspectUsual]

I believe that Northern did it with Burley Park but as an unstaffed and barrier-less station that is a little different to Vauxhall.

Pretty sure they’ve done it with Bramley

 

[FOH]

I'm often curious what drives the behaviour to fare-avoid (as opposed to all the excuses given). The thrill / the bravado of committing a minor crime? Peer-pressure?

Aside from money saving as mentioned above, the most common correlation seems to be people who suffer from anxiety based on a lot of the posts in the disputes and prosecutions section

 

[RJ]

Did the ‘inventors’ of the e-ticket system never realise that they’d designed such a useful enabler for people to short fare? Seems to me nearly every new great idea comes with additional scope for fare dodging.

The thing is, stuff like this is entirely foreseeable. Any value scheme that's too easy, whether it be a legal loophole or illegal fraud will be jumped on by masses of people. A few "sharp" people will try their luck with trial and error then word spreads quickly.

Prevention should be designed in from the outset - or trials should be run with the express intention of weeding out any undesirable customer behaviour before wider rollout. The incentive for doing so will vary from business to business - if fraud is actually hitting individuals directly in their pocket, a stop is likely to be put to it a lot more quickly than if taxpayers are taking the hit.

 

[Sonic1234]

the most common correlation seems to be people who suffer from anxiety based

The cynic might say they are hoping having a special characteristic (diagnosed or otherwise) means they can get away with it, or at least reduce the severity of any sanction. A learned behaviour from the education/university system.

They might not be wrong if they did take it all the way to court.

 

[WesternLancer]

I can see the appeal of buying a couple of drinks (or low value treat of your choice) rather than paying the proper train fare.

I can imagine my younger student self making exactly that sort of calculation (stupidly).
I don’t think I actually did that sort of fare evasion, not least because I didn’t at the time do the sort of train travel that would have leant itself to doing that - but I certainly did other daft things without thinking through the consequences very much.

 

[paninaro]

Aside from money saving as mentioned above, the most common correlation seems to be people who suffer from anxiety based on a lot of the posts in the disputes and prosecutions section

To be fair most of them also think they're facing jail-time over this, in which scenario *i'd* also be suffering from anxiety.

 

[WesternLancer]

The cynic might say they are hoping having a special characteristic (diagnosed or otherwise) means they can get away with it, or at least reduce the severity of any sanction. A learned behaviour from the education/university system.

They might not be wrong if they did take it all the way to court.

Well some come on here actually being pretty anxious about what happens to them next. It seems to me.

I don’t deny people especially younger people have ‘anxiety’ conditions. I’m pretty sure they do.
I suspect similar proportions of the demographic always have. It’s just no one especially labelled it ‘anxiety’, it was just like how you were.
Now there’s a tendency to categorise things it becomes a label or ‘condition’ people can use including about themselves.
I suspect that then creates a tendency to be open about mentioning it or even occasionally thinking of it as an excuse.

For some people it is certainly a very debilitating condition in extreme cases.
I can’t see that driving you to petty crime though. Maybe I don’t know enough about that.

Just my observations. No relevant knowledge of the topic I add!

 

[Bald Rick]

Today’s Times (paywalled) has a similar article about GTR withdrawing selected e-tickets ‘around their major hubs’...

Luton to Luton Airport Parkway being a popular choice for some reason.

 

[kijeta]

Anyone definitely wanting to make a real journey between the two stations, (avoiding Oyster or contactless PAYG), could always use a TVM, or TOD - collect at Vauxhall only.

Wouldn't ToD make it even harder for SWR to detect short-farers? At least with e-tickets, the lack of entry scan is a red flag. That doesn't exist with CCSTs.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wouldn't ToD make it even harder for SWR to detect short-farers? At least with e-tickets, the lack of entry scan is a red flag. That doesn't exist with CCSTs.

Have a think about what you need to do to collect a ticket at Vauxhall…

 

[gembercannelle]

Have a think about what you need to do to collect a ticket at Vauxhall…

You can collect (or buy with cash!) it at Waterloo the day (or week) before.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I don’t deny people especially younger people have ‘anxiety’ conditions. I’m pretty sure they do.
I suspect similar proportions of the demographic always have. It’s just no one especially labelled it ‘anxiety’, it was just like how you were.
Now there’s a tendency to categorise things it becomes a label or ‘condition’ people can use including about themselves.
I suspect that then creates a tendency to be open about mentioning it or even occasionally thinking of it as an excuse.

For some people it is certainly a very debilitating condition in extreme cases.
I can’t see that driving you to petty crime though. Maybe I don’t know enough about that.

Just my observations. No relevant knowledge of the topic I add!

I know a bit about it because I’ve suffered from anxiety since I was about 10. However as you say back then (early 80s) it was just how I was, and I didn’t get a formal diagnosis until I was in my mid 40s when I had a bit of a breakdown

I’ve learned a lot about how my brain (mal)functions over the last decade and for me personally one of the manifestations of my anxiety is that I’m incredibly organised - everything is planned and replanned, checked and double checked, notes written, copies made, to the point that my consultant said I could get a formal OCD diagnosis if I wanted another label. He’s funny like that

Because of that, when I read of cases in D&P where people are anxious but didn’t have a ticket, used an expired railcard, bought on the train etc I find it almost incomprehensible, but I have to remind myself no two people are identical.

 

[WesternLancer]

I know a bit about it because I’ve suffered from anxiety since I was about 10. However as you say back then (early 80s) it was just how I was, and I didn’t get a formal diagnosis until I was in my mid 40s when I had a bit of a breakdown

I’ve learned a lot about how my brain (mal)functions over the last decade and for me personally one of the manifestations of my anxiety is that I’m incredibly organised - everything is planned and replanned, checked and double checked, notes written, copies made, to the point that my consultant said I could get a formal OCD diagnosis if I wanted another label. He’s funny like that

Because of that, when I read of cases in D&P where people are anxious but didn’t have a ticket, used an expired railcard, bought on the train etc I find it almost incomprehensible, but I have to remind myself no two people are identical.

Thanks for that response to my post. Helpful for me to read and learn. Much appreciated.
Thanks for taking the trouble.

 

[Recessio]

Did the ‘inventors’ of the e-ticket system never realise that they’d designed such a useful enabler for people to short fare? Seems to me nearly every new great idea comes with additional scope for fare dodging.

I think we are heading ever closer to a requirement to scan tickets at the departure and arrival station.

Would that be feasible at stations without barriers though? Even if it has a freestanding validator, what would happen if you don't scan your ticket out? Charge the payment card that bought the ticket, maybe?

And I'm sure Northern have done something similar in the past, withdrawing selected e-tickets for known short fare hotspots where the trains are too busy for effective revenue protection (i.e. Harrogate line) or are run with a pair of non gangway units (popular with the "Front Unit Aimers").

That sounds like a John Peel quote... "and tonight in session we have the Front Unit Aimers!"

 

[Bald Rick]

You can collect (or buy with cash!) it at Waterloo the day (or week) before.

but @swt_passenger proposed collect at Vauxhall only…

 

[Haywain]

but @swt_passenger proposed collect at Vauxhall only…

Impossible to enforce.

 

[43096]

Aside from money saving as mentioned above, the most common correlation seems to be people who suffer from anxiety based on a lot of the posts in the disputes and prosecutions section

Being cynical, I’d say that playing the anxiety card is more a case of trying it on hoping to get a more favourable outcome when caught.

Someone with genuine anxiety surely seeks to avoid stressful situations so would buy the right ticket to avoid the situation of being stopped and questioned.

 

[dosxuk]

I guess one way to reduce this would be to flag suspicious users or routes and prevent those e-tickets from operating automatic gates. If every Vauxhall-Waterloo passenger had to go be manually checked, with many of them trying the "but the gates were open" excuse to explain the lack of an entry scan, then I suspect we'd see use of that ticket drop off rapidly.

One of the reasons people do this is because it's easy. If the railway makes things harder for them, they're likely to go back to buying the right ticket in the first place just to avoid the hassle.

 

[John R]

If every Vauxhall-Waterloo passenger had to go be manually checked, with many of them trying the "but the gates were open" excuse to explain the lack of an entry scan, then I suspect we'd see use of that ticket drop off rapidly.

That's exactly what SWR does now and again.

 

[Watershed]

but @swt_passenger proposed collect at Vauxhall only…

There's no mechanism in industry systems to force you to collect a ticket at a particular station.