Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[Zomboid]

Assuming the Virgin/ Trenitalia operations are financially viable, they're proposing to use 200m trains, so on that basis you wouldn't need 800 people.

It's crayons obviously, but I think that if the HS1-2 link were to be built (so that's a no straight away), Birmingham to Paris/ Brussels/ Amsterdam ought to be able to support a 4-6 trains a day service across the various destinations. But then that's exactly why the link isn't happening, you'd never dig that tunnel for such a small amount of traffic.

 

[Krokodil]

Or in other words, it would likely be much cheaper and less disruptive to:
- fix St Pancras (maybe even a substantial rebuild)
- create a travelator route between Euston and St Pancras

Making Euston more convenient would help too, so that people don't have to go from the country end of their train all the way to the concourse just to get out and double back to the low traffic walking route.

Many termini (Paddington, Man Picc etc.) have a bridge partway down the platforms, providing an alternative entrance. Stick it in line with Phoenix Road, make it as wide as the one at Reading, and encourage passengers for lower lettered coaches, the front set of HS2 pairs etc to wait there for their platform to be called, and you would both reduce the pressure on the main concourse and reduce the distance people go during the traditional Euston Stampede.

 

[Sorcerer]

Let's be real, even assuming HS1-HS2 link was done alongside the full route, the 17tph paths would be mostly used up, so you'd be squeezing few international trains into the network already. I think at this point it'd be a better investment to get HS2 done along with Crossrail 2 which could provide a travellator connection between Euston and St. Pancras, and also provide capacity relief within London such as on the Victoria and Northern lines.

 

[thomalex]

Making Euston more convenient would help too, so that people don't have to go from the country end of their train all the way to the concourse just to get out and double back to the low traffic walking route.

Many termini (Paddington, Man Picc etc.) have a bridge partway down the platforms, providing an alternative entrance. Stick it in line with Phoenix Road, make it as wide as the one at Reading, and encourage passengers for lower lettered coaches, the front set of HS2 pairs etc to wait there for their platform to be called, and you would both reduce the pressure on the main concourse and reduce the distance people go during the traditional Euston Stampede.

Certainly seems to be the thinking from the early masterplan for the new Euston station. The blue is office development and I believe they will be going for a large deck over the platforms so providing direct access to routes around the station rather than everyone having to go out the front.

Bookended by a office development and entrance right into the heart of the station, Phoenix Road should become quite a major thoroughfare under this plan I would have thought being a straight route between Euston, St Pancras, and the wider Kings Cross development. Some reconfiguration of the ground floor of St Pancras to provide a direct entrance here from Phoenix Road would also help it to develop. https://maps.app.goo.gl/rV5bDiV2D3XH81ka9

Image from https://www.eustonlondon.co.uk/euston-masterplan/

 

[Snow1964]

Add an hour for check-in, so 6hrs without transfers. Compared to a 1h30 flight + 2hrs check-in even for the most pessimistic, so the train is 1h30 down on a flight before you even start looking at prices.

If people are happy to do say Paris-Nice (about 5 hrs 40) or Paris-Barcelona (about 6 hours) or Hamburg-Munich (about 5 hr 45) by train. Routes that could be flown, then why do you think many wouldn't do Birmingham or Manchester to a European city that is 6 hours away if they had the choice.

 

[CdBrux]

If people are happy to do say Paris-Nice (about 5 hrs 40) or Paris-Barcelona (about 6 hours) or Hamburg-Munich (about 5 hr 45) by train. Routes that could be flown, then why do you think many wouldn't do Birmingham or Manchester to a European city that is 6 hours away if they had the choice.

how many people?
Really this topic has been done to death on these and other forums several times in the last years and it is always blindingly obvious that even with the most favourable conditions there is no business case.
I appreciate this is in the speculative but far better to speculate on something that actually has a vaguely realistic chance of happening.

 

[zwk500]

If people are happy to do say Paris-Nice (about 5 hrs 40) or Paris-Barcelona (about 6 hours) or Hamburg-Munich (about 5 hr 45) by train. Routes that could be flown, then why do you think many wouldn't do Birmingham or Manchester to a European city that is 6 hours away if they had the choice.

Paris-Nice: 5/6 intermediate stops.
Paris-Barcelona: 9 intermediate stops.
Hamburg-Munich: 8 intermediate stops.

I don't think very many *are* making the long 4hr+ trips by rail in Schengen. If they were, there'd be less intermediate stops.

Remember that any intermediate stops on Manchester-EU would need to be one-way only, as opposed to internal Schengen journeys.

 

[cle]

If people are happy to do say Paris-Nice (about 5 hrs 40) or Paris-Barcelona (about 6 hours) or Hamburg-Munich (about 5 hr 45) by train. Routes that could be flown, then why do you think many wouldn't do Birmingham or Manchester to a European city that is 6 hours away if they had the choice.

Two of these are domestic journeys... one is to the capital (and other dominant European city aside from London) - Paris is the most visited city in the world and arguably the natural centre of the European rail network, or one of them.

Paris-Barcelona is a stitching together of many pairs, it isn't hugely used end to end, and is closer to 7 hours. And that is 3tpd intra - Schengen, so not highly frequent considering... and at least on the France side, you roll up 2 mins before doors close. No barriers literally and figuratively. Spain does has some security at points, but no customs/ID. So that shows not a massive demand, vs a 1hr flight 20 times a day, including with many cheap airlines.

 

[Sorcerer]

If people are happy to do say Paris-Nice (about 5 hrs 40) or Paris-Barcelona (about 6 hours) or Hamburg-Munich (about 5 hr 45) by train. Routes that could be flown, then why do you think many wouldn't do Birmingham or Manchester to a European city that is 6 hours away if they had the choice.

Birmingham to Paris in three hours or Manchester to Paris in four would usually be within the comfortable time limit of taking a high-speed train because rail travel gets you between city centres at a greater comfort than airlines. The problem here is that, because the UK isn't in the Schengen Zone, border checks would need to be carried out which adds the inconvenience of an airline to rail travel. At that point the plane's speed might become a more preferable option for door-to-door travel.

 

[danielhogg2005]

Seems relevant to this thread in terms of services using the Channel Tunnel:

Working group established to explore Caledonian Sleeper links to mainland Europe | Transport Scotland

A working group has met for the first time to deliver a feasibility study examining the potential for a direct Caledonian Sleeper service to mainland Europe. The group, comprising representatives from Transport Scotland, Scottish Rail Holdings and Caledonian Sleeper, will oversee the development...

www.transport.gov.scot

A feasibility study is being conducted by Transport Scotland, Scottish Rail Holdings and Caledonian Sleeper to see potential options for a direct night train from Scotland to mainland Europe.

 

[30907]

Seems relevant to this thread in terms of services using the Channel Tunnel:

Working group established to explore Caledonian Sleeper links to mainland Europe | Transport Scotland

A working group has met for the first time to deliver a feasibility study examining the potential for a direct Caledonian Sleeper service to mainland Europe. The group, comprising representatives from Transport Scotland, Scottish Rail Holdings and Caledonian Sleeper, will oversee the development...

www.transport.gov.scot

A feasibility study is being conducted by Transport Scotland, Scottish Rail Holdings and Caledonian Sleeper to see potential options for a direct night train from Scotland to mainland Europe.

Wasn't someone in the mainland wanting to run to Edinburgh?

 

[danielhogg2005]

Wasn't someone in the mainland wanting to run to Edinburgh?

Yes, they where Midnight Trains, if Wikipedia is to be believed on this:

Midnight Trains - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Proposals for services between Edinburgh and Paris were dropped in late 2023, owing to complexities involved with running through the Channel Tunnel, including fire resistance of rolling stock and loading gauge concerns on the wider British network.[8]

All plans where scrapped in 2024 by Midnight Trains.

 

[popeter45]

The demand just isn't there for that. Proportionate to the extra 30 mins in the air, vs double on the train.

It's not super competitive for business travel (without the London volumes) - it doesn't have the inbound draw from Paris/France (biz/leisure to London, and disapora / 'expat' / VFR travel) - and the leisure demand isn't huge. Manchester has a fair amount of flights to Paris a day - 9 tomorrow including Ryanair to BVA. Brussels, only 2.

Amsterdam is another story entirely, tons of demand (but many connecting to KL, our true national airline!) - but journey would be much longer.

Chat of Switzerland only works (and it doesn't work or exist yet) - because London is at one end of it. Otherwise, it really is a marginal / too long journey time.

this is kind of my point
why are people talking of multi million pound HS1-HS2 links for a service that would never recover that money
look at whats possible for cheap now with existing infrastructure not what needs total rebuilds of what we already have too work

keep it simple, 1 maybe 2 200m trains a day that join up with another 200m unit in London for the tunnel, see how that goes, if there is demand great, if not the capital down is WAY less than a HS1-HS2

 

[AlastairFraser]

Not in any practical sense. It would be extraordinarily difficult to build, requiring either another pair of tunnels from Dagenham, or an extended closure of HS1 to build a junction cavern (think years) at that end. The geology there is very difficult, namely wet. Then getting a tunnel into the GEML would require hundreds of residential properties. And then all you are gaining is no extra usuable capacity at St Pancras, and all the SE High Speed passengers who would want to go there being dumped approximatley half a mile from where they can already get to easily via Sevenoaks.

Fair point - I forgot about the Lea valley being such a nightmare.

At Maryland there is a ~20m elevation difference. At Liverpool St there are platforms at capacity.

I was more thinking of a Stratford International to Bow link, but I did think there was platform capacity at Liverpool St after the Elizabeth Line removed the GEML inner suburban services from it.
Maybe Greater Anglia service increases have changed things in the interim.
My preferred option anyway for extra cross channel capacity is a low cost operator with high density trains operating from Ebbsfleet to the continent, perhaps with a realigned formula from Getlink/Eurotunnel making Channel Tunnel costs per passenger lower (after all, they would still profit significantly from the use of the paths reserved for extra passenger trains, as I believe the current extra paths reserved don't impinge on their current Le Shuttle paths).

 

[vuzzeho]

Seems relevant to this thread in terms of services using the Channel Tunnel:

Working group established to explore Caledonian Sleeper links to mainland Europe | Transport Scotland

A working group has met for the first time to deliver a feasibility study examining the potential for a direct Caledonian Sleeper service to mainland Europe. The group, comprising representatives from Transport Scotland, Scottish Rail Holdings and Caledonian Sleeper, will oversee the development...

www.transport.gov.scot

A feasibility study is being conducted by Transport Scotland, Scottish Rail Holdings and Caledonian Sleeper to see potential options for a direct night train from Scotland to mainland Europe.

This is pretty exciting, and I hope something comes of it. Obviously a feasibility study =/= service coming soon, but it's really exciting to think about.

What I don't get is how it would work, though. How would the Sleeper get from Scotland to London in time to still get through the tunnel? It would basically have to run as an express, then have some London call, then either run on HS1 or the old third rail route Eurostar used to take. Maybe this is one to speculate about on a new thread?

 

[JamesT]

This is pretty exciting, and I hope something comes of it. Obviously a feasibility study =/= service coming soon, but it's really exciting to think about.

What I don't get is how it would work, though. How would the Sleeper get from Scotland to London in time to still get through the tunnel? It would basically have to run as an express, then have some London call, then either run on HS1 or the old third rail route Eurostar used to take. Maybe this is one to speculate about on a new thread?

Does the tunnel actually shut overnight? Looking at LeShuttle tonight leaving from Folkestone there’s 0023, 0221, 0419, 0524 and then we’re back to the half hourly service.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

This is pretty exciting, and I hope something comes of it. Obviously a feasibility study =/= service coming soon, but it's really exciting to think about.

What I don't get is how it would work, though. How would the Sleeper get from Scotland to London in time to still get through the tunnel? It would basically have to run as an express, then have some London call, then either run on HS1 or the old third rail route Eurostar used to take. Maybe this is one to speculate about on a new thread?

Perhaps this is in preparation for an independent Scotland that has joined the EU and is in Schengen? The sleeper could run as a 'corridor' train through England rather like the old East Germany!

Seriously, there doesn't seem to be much demand from Glasgow to Paris - only EasyJet serves it; for Edinburgh it is only EasyJet and Air France.

 

[NCT]

SNP stunt.

 

[Cach17]

If Glasgow to Paris by Regional Eurostar wasn't remotely feasible (for multiple reasons), what hope in heck does this proposal have?

 

[Krokodil]

If people are happy to do say Paris-Nice (about 5 hrs 40) or Paris-Barcelona (about 6 hours) or Hamburg-Munich (about 5 hr 45) by train. Routes that could be flown, then why do you think many wouldn't do Birmingham or Manchester to a European city that is 6 hours away if they had the choice.

It's a non-starter unless and until the UK joins Schengen and drops the security theatre. The other issue is the expensive dedicated infrastructure. Wouldn't be so bad if it was just going off of the WCML onto the NLL but from HS2 (the only way to get a decent speed advantage) you're going to need some serious construction work.

What I don't get is how it would work, though. How would the Sleeper get from Scotland to London in time to still get through the tunnel? It would basically have to run as an express, then have some London call, then either run on HS1 or the old third rail route Eurostar used to take.

Lowlander currently gets in about 7am. You can still arrive in Paris at a reasonable time - plenty of sleepers in Europe don't reach their destination until 10am. But given that the Lowlander is already well-loaded, would you really want to turf all of the London passengers off at Watford Junction just after six for the sake of a handful of Paris passengers? If it was an additional train, it would be different.

Does the tunnel actually shut overnight? Looking at LeShuttle tonight leaving from Folkestone there’s 0023, 0221, 0419, 0524 and then we’re back to the half hourly service.

I think that they just do single line working overnight. HS1 and LGV Nord will shut though.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Ad

Add an hour for check-in, so 6hrs without transfers. Compared to a 1h30 flight + 2hrs check-in even for the most pessimistic, so the train is 1h30 down on a flight before you even start looking at prices.

That's quite a big problem for an initial service, as you'll need to find enough (a full Eurostar is 800-900 capacity IIRC) people all wanting to leave Manchester/arrive Paris at a similar enough time, who don't care about losing up to 2hrs travelling, and are willing to pay a premium to not fly.

Add 45 mins travel/faff time between the city centre and airport at each end and you’re suddenly even.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2026 ==

Seems relevant to this thread in terms of services using the Channel Tunnel:

Working group established to explore Caledonian Sleeper links to mainland Europe | Transport Scotland

A working group has met for the first time to deliver a feasibility study examining the potential for a direct Caledonian Sleeper service to mainland Europe. The group, comprising representatives from Transport Scotland, Scottish Rail Holdings and Caledonian Sleeper, will oversee the development...

www.transport.gov.scot

A feasibility study is being conducted by Transport Scotland, Scottish Rail Holdings and Caledonian Sleeper to see potential options for a direct night train from Scotland to mainland Europe.

What are they smoking? I want some to get hallucinations that good.

 

[JamesT]

Add 45 mins travel/faff time between the city centre and airport at each end and you’re suddenly even.

Though as usual, how many journeys are city centre to city centre? Most long distance trips like that will be starting at home, so you’ve got to get to the station which may be no quicker than you could get to the airport.

 

[ShadowKnight]

Though as usual, how many journeys are city centre to city centre? Most long distance trips like that will be starting at home, so you’ve got to get to the station which may be no quicker than you could get to the airport.

Often to get to an airport by public transport you often have to get to near the city centre to get the bus/train to the airport so it does balance out often. Especially between London and Scotland, the accumulated time and cost of door to door travel makes the train (5-6hrs depending on the route) comparable and often better than the plane.

An international rail north of London service that is probably <6hrs all in would complete.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2026 ==

keep it simple, 1 maybe 2 200m trains a day that join up with another 200m unit in London for the tunnel, see how that goes, if there is demand great, if not the capital down is WAY less than a HS1-HS2

With classic compatible stock this could be done today attaching/detaching a 200m unit at St Pancras/Stratford accessing the WCML.

Shortened e300s coupled together could be used as a pilot service.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is a long travelator as part of proposed Crossrail 2 station (which is basically a double ended station, one end at Euston, one end at St Pancras.

There isn’t, and has never been, a travelator between Euston and St Pancras proposed as part of Crossrail 2. There is a pedestrian route, which requires four changes of level (2 down, 2 up) two gate lines, and a 240metre platform to get along.

Many termini (Paddington, Man Picc etc.) have a bridge partway down the platforms, providing an alternative entrance. Stick it in line with Phoenix Road, make it as wide as the one at Reading, and encourage passengers for lower lettered coaches, the front set of HS2 pairs etc to wait there for their platform to be called, and you would both reduce the pressure on the main concourse and reduce the distance people go during the traditional Euston Stampede.

That is what is proposed for Euston as part of the rebuild.

Does the tunnel actually shut overnight?

Not normally. Usually open, save for some engineering works taking out one, occasionally two intervals (essentially one track for a third of the route). LGV Nord is shut though, which means 3hrs Calais to Paris. Not that I could see SNCF allowing sleepers on the LGV anyway, they would wince, perhaps even an “oh lala” at the axle load of the locos.

 

[danshrimp]

Paris-Nice: 5/6 intermediate stops.
Paris-Barcelona: 9 intermediate stops.
Hamburg-Munich: 8 intermediate stops.

I don't think very many *are* making the long 4hr+ trips by rail in Schengen. If they were, there'd be less intermediate stops.

Paris-Barcelona is a stitching together of many pairs, it isn't hugely used end to end, and is closer to 7 hours.

I do Paris-Barcelona frequently and I would absolutely say that the majority of passengers are using it end to end. Leaving Barcelona the few seats that are still empty are usually full by Perpignan. And it's always sold out or thereabouts. Varies a little with the season (in summer it's a sea of interrailers going the full length) but not much.

Indeed a similar pattern of end-to-end travel exceeding expectations was reported on the new 8-hour Paris-Berlin ICE. Per Mr Seat 61:

It's been reported that the direct Paris-Berlin ICE has been a great success, with an 80%+ load factor and an average of 75% of people making the whole 8h trip between the capitals, exceeding an expectation of 50%.

 

[NCT]

Single figures trains per day do not investment cases make.

 

[Falcon1200]

This is pretty exciting, and I hope something comes of it.

I hope nothing does, because just the feasibility study will be costing me, as a Scottish taxpayer, money, not to mention taking resources away from other far more important areas. The subsidy required to establish and operate Scotland/Europe sleepers would make the support the current Caledonian Sleepers receive look like pocket money!

SNP stunt.

Yes indeed. I'm just surprised they haven't proposed a Scotland/Europe tunnel avoiding England altogether!

 

[Snow1964]

Single figures trains per day do not investment cases make.

Not for building new routes, but works from using existing terminals and train utilisation.

Thats why low cost airlines, and some of the low cost rail operators do it. Just aim to use the train (or plane) 15+ hours per day even if it serves somewhere different in morning to the afternoon.

There is both a market (usually termed business market) for quick, high quality, high frequency. And at other end the budget market where taking long time or travelling at silly o'clock is fine for the rare journey that gets you there directly.

The difference is the business market will only be busy at certain times of the day, and many services will be quiet, but still run to maintain frequency (so still costing, but little income). At the budget end most seats will be utilised on all services (So nearly always covering its costs)

 

[CdBrux]

SNP stunt.

Quite. I think most here could save them the money. What's the betting they'll conclude the main obstacle is the UK government?

 

[Bald Rick]

Quite. I think most here could save them the money. What's the betting they'll conclude the main obstacle is the UK government?

If they are canny (as opposed to cannae) they will at least mention that one of the main obstacles is Brexit / non Schengen.