I'm not sure it necessarily leads to more fragmentation if it allows the creation of a Wales & Borders IBU.
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Wales plan to take over 10% of UK rail network
- Thread starter Meole
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(Cardiff,) Newport, Abergavenny, Brecon, Llandrindod, Newtown, Welshpool, Oswestry, Wrexham, Shotton.
A north-south line for Wales between the centres of population of south wales and north wales, owned and operated entirely by the Welsh government.
zwk500
Veteran Member
I've seen some proposals on these forums....
amahy
Member
Wouldn't it be cheaper, easier, and more beneficial to just upgrade the Marches line?
Cardiff123
Established Member
To be honest, I sigh every time I read a post from someone saying there's no way that Welsh Government should get control of any section of line that runs into England, despite the fact that Welsh Government are much more likely to invest in & upgrade the Marches line than if it was left under UK Government control.
And what's forgotten is that Welsh Government wouldn't be taking ownership of any line, they would just get funding and control of Network Rail infrastructure transferred to them, as is the case in Scotland.
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zwk500
Veteran Member
They took full ownership of the CVL, so it's not automatic that the model pursued would be the same as Scotlands.
Oswestry isn't in Wales.
Cardiff123
Established Member
They took full ownership of the CVL because Welsh Govt wanted to pursue light rail options and discontinuous electrification for the Valley Lines to keep overall costs of the project within certain limits.
It was also a time a decade ago when costs of NR's electrification schemes were spiralling out of control.
And even if TfW did take on full ownership of the Marches line and did a better job of upgrading the signalling and infrastructure than NR/GBR, I don't see what the problem would be. All regular passengers want to see is improves services.
The Planner
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Well seeing as resignalling plans have been knocking around for the best part of 15-20 years, money clearly isnt there.
Cardiff123
Established Member
Or it's just not seen as a priority by a Westminster UK government. That would change if the line was devolved
amahy
Member
But would the Welsh Government care either? They seem to be endlessly banging on about that Wales doesn't get their fair share of rail investment, so I don't get why they would then want to invest their money England. According to them, Shropshire and Herefordshire have more than their fair share!
Cardiff123
Established Member
Because the Marches line is the only route between north and south Wales, and the many of TfW's profitable services run over this line. It's in TfW's and Wales' interest for the Marches line to get improvements.
Because the Marches line is the only rail link between North, Mid and South Wales.
The Planner
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The profitable one goes to England, Manchester Piccadilly.
HSTEd
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Spending significant money on the Marches line would be tantamount to the Welsh government admitting that an all welsh north-south route is a pipedream.
I don't see that being at all politically attractive.
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I don't think that it would achieve the same goals. The Marches line isn't really focused on connecting north wales and south wales. There's definitely a logic to creating a separate line - it would allow an upgraded Marches line to do a better job of connecting south Wales to the north. Plus, politically, a new railway that's directly between south Wales and north Wales and directly owned by TfW would probably be preferred by the Welsh Government.
Yes? Do you think that disqualifies the line as a north-south route for Wales in some way?
Just that you appeared to be saying Oswestry is in Wales.
To say nothing of the fact that you're proposing 40 miles of new railway through mountains to combine with 120 miles of existing mostly slow railway, to serve not much population.
Nah, it’s not in Wales but it fits in with a new north Wales-south Wales alignment and serves an underserved community with public transport, so worth adding in.
The line wouldn’t serve much population, no, but it would serve several places currently not linked into the public transport network, which is important goal in its own right.
It would also unite the Welsh rail network into a single network, instead of relying on the English network to travel between places within Wales. The connectivity benefits are larger than the relative utility if you only look at raw population numbers.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Buses can surely meet the public transport need at hugely less cost than a new railway - Is there a bus service now over the proposed route, and if not, why not?!!
Why is that an issue?
Connecting Telford with Stafford would be best of all to give fast London connections. No new railway needed either. But this is well off topic.
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Like most mechanical signalling, it will continue until it can’t be maintained (usually a people thing) or can’t support the enhancements (speed or capacity usually) that somebody has the cash for.
Refurbishing mechanical costs less than a third of replacement and ticks the ‘renewal’ box so it never gets far up the priority list and the staff savings are a flea bite compared to full renewal costs.
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Envoy
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If somebody said today that we need a railway to link Cardiff with north Wales and be profitable, I bet that planners would suggest the route the Victorians chose for the Marches Line. It avoids most of the mountainous centre of Wales whilst also linking up several English settlements such as Hereford, Ludlow & Shrewsbury. It also connects Wrexham and Chester and as a bonus, via a link from Shrewsbury, connects with Manchester and the heavily populated NW of England - plus a connection at Crewe with the mainline to Scotland. From Chester, the north Wales mainline runs through to Holyhead on a mainly flat coastal route.
It is clearly in the interests of Wales to have a high quality Marches Line - even though most of it is in England.
It is clearly in the interests of Wales to have a high quality Marches Line - even though most of it is in England.
I've thought of that before since it might allow a faster route for Mid Wales/Shropshire-London and increase local connectivity, but yes that is off topic so wont go into detail
Smwrff
Member
But it should be....
Llanigraham
On Moderation
I can assure that there are plenty of people who do know what they are talking about in those circles who do know that any "internal" line is a pointless and very expensive pipedream and will not happen.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
For better of worse the boundaries are what they are... And the geography and population spread of Wales dictates that if you want to build a railway that comes anywhere close to requiring subsidy at a sustainable level between North and South Wales, it's got to go via Hereford, Shrewsbury and Chester.
The interior of Wales is very beautiful, but there's next to nobody there to serve, and the north Wales coast isn't highly/densely populated enough to justify a non-stop route to the south Wales coast.
The interior of Wales is very beautiful, but there's next to nobody there to serve, and the north Wales coast isn't highly/densely populated enough to justify a non-stop route to the south Wales coast.
Reconquista
The Mercian
Member
I struggle to see the problem with the WG and TfW ploughing some money into upgrading the Marches Line. Not only does Wales benefit but shock horror so does England and the West Mercia region in particular.
Not that the West Midlands Rail Executive seem to give much of a toss as their current strategy doesn’t cover Hereford to Crewe or Shrewsbury westwards either. I realise this is a function of the Wales and Borders franchise but it’s a huge flaw in devolution that the only way to get anything done on a line predominantly in England is devolved to <checks notes> the Welsh government. It’s quite frankly barmy.
Not that the West Midlands Rail Executive seem to give much of a toss as their current strategy doesn’t cover Hereford to Crewe or Shrewsbury westwards either. I realise this is a function of the Wales and Borders franchise but it’s a huge flaw in devolution that the only way to get anything done on a line predominantly in England is devolved to <checks notes> the Welsh government. It’s quite frankly barmy.
HSTEd
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Perhaps, but people in positions of power in Wales are quite happy to dangle the idea of studies leading to an "internal" line for political advantage.
Consequently, anything that undermines that will probably prove rather unpopular with the electorate.
The very low public (or otherwise) transport demand between North and South Wales makes improvements hard to justify and any improvements via England will be politically costly even if they are less monetarily costly.
There are only ~680,000 people in all of North Wales, and ~150,000 of that are in Flintshire, which means they are pretty firmly in the Liverpool-Chester orbit whatever happens.
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