East-West Rail (EWR) countdown to entry into service

[trundlewagon]

Cameras being fitted to the units doesn't necessarily mean they are fit for purpose...

Especially when you consider these are CAF units we're talking about...

 

[JonathanH]

Cameras being fitted to the units doesn't necessarily mean they are fit for purpose...

Especially when you consider these are CAF units we're talking about..

Does the fact that the units are built by CAF mean the cameras have been obtained from a different supplier to cameras being used day-in / day-out elsewhere on the network?

 

[trundlewagon]

Does the fact that the units are built by CAF mean the cameras have been obtained from a different supplier to cameras being used day-in / day-out elsewhere on the network?

Couldn't say but it probably increases the chances of them not working...

 

[andyjhatton]

Well this disaster and HS2 are the end of any new rail routes for a long time.
The next phase of EWR clearly won't happen because the NIMBYS don't want it, the costs will go over the moon, and the unions will find some objection to it.

 

[D365]

RMT and ASLEF are standing fast on the fact that there is no platform DOO equipment and no on board DOO equipment and no station staff.

This is 100% incorrect. Consider that the Class 196s were not even fitted with guard controls at built.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Well well, I despair.....

To the rest of the world (ie outside the railway industry and enthusiasts) the railways must seem a joke.
Except.
The only reason the railways survive is because most of the population have so little interest in the railway industry that they do not realise their money is being spent on it.

I really hesitated to post this but HS2, electrification and now EWR wanting to hark back to last century leave me worried.

 

[vuzzeho]

Well this disaster and HS2 are the end of any new rail routes for a long time.

What about the South Wales Metro, or Northumberland Line, or Crossrail? Whenever a project goes on for too long, people say that it's the end of new investment - except the industry knows that one delayed project does not mean we should stop building rail. Besides, when EWR Oxford to MK opens, it's likely to be incredibly successful anyway.

 

[Peter Sarf]

What about the South Wales Metro, or Northumberland Line, or Crossrail? Whenever a project goes on for too long, people say that it's the end of new investment - except the industry knows that one delayed project does not mean we should stop building rail. Besides, when EWR Oxford to MK opens, it's likely to be incredibly successful anyway.

Lets hope EWR Oxford to MK does well, I expect it can be a success.

But people always remember the negatives unfortunately. The railways need more positives on BIG ticket items. The Elizabeth Line needs boasting about. HS2 and GWEP electrification costs are negatives.

The way EWR is dragging on feels a bit self inflicted. To outsiders it looks like the lack of a "can do" approach.

 

[PLY2AYS]

This is 100% incorrect. Consider that the Class 196s were not even fitted with guard controls at built.

This is 100% correct, I fail to see how the inclusion of guard panels negates the point of cameras not working?

Cameras were deactivated as soon as they were leased to West Mids and have never been used in passenger service.
There is not DOO platform equipment at Winslow.
And there are no station staff at Winslow either.

So cameras aside (which is unconfirmed whether they are still disconnected, are fit for purpose or even installed and functional with an approved training package) everything I’ve said is entirely true.

 

[Travelmonkey]

No staff at Winslow with DOO so much for a TUAG railway for wheelchair users. It does seem like cart before the horse and this will cost Chiltern in the long run either by funding guards/Station staff or paying out on acess fail legal action.

 

[D365]

This is 100% correct, I fail to see how the inclusion of guard panels negates the point of cameras not working?

I’m pointing at the fact that the Class 196s were built as DOO trains. So your statement that they have no DOO equipment is incorrect - unless you are going to tell me that the CCTV and ASDO controls have been removed?

 

[PLY2AYS]

I’m pointing at the fact that the Class 196s were built as DOO trains. So your statement that they have no DOO equipment is incorrect - unless you are going to tell me that the CCTV and ASDO controls have been removed?

The CCTV is not operational.
Whether its hardware has been removed or permanently been switched off remains to be seen. But the last update I received was that it wasn’t functional.
Moreover, upon installation or reinstatement, a clear training package will need to be agreed upon and delivered for it to be used.

This seems like the easiest way to solve these issues from a technical perspective, however that isn’t how the company, nor workers see it at present.

 

[fishwomp]

There has.
GS Eddie Dempsey of the RMT has stepped up to voice full support for staff onboard given that driver only operation overlooks passengers travelling with disabilities, and fully supports ASLEF’s position to prevent the extension of DOO.

RMT and ASLEF are standing fast on the fact that there is no platform DOO equipment and no on board DOO equipment and no station staff.
.

Can you explain which is the situation.

Either this is a dispute on principle (your first post quoted here), or on the specific implementation (your second post)

It cannot be both.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Can you explain which is the situation.

Either this is a dispute on principle (your first post quoted here), or on the specific implementation (your second post)

It cannot be both.

Why can’t it be both?

RMT and ASLEF are both against the extension of DOO.
That is entirely separate to the aspiration of the company to run DOO, which it has embarrassingly overlooked and failed to implement the technology or infrastructure for.
So even if DOO was to be agreed, it can’t be because there is no feasible way to do that at present.

Hope that clears it up for you.

 

[Falcon1200]

The CCTV is not operational.

But the last update I received was that it wasn’t functional.

An update from who, and received when? It surely cannot be an impossible task to reinstate equipment already provided, or to train staff on its use.

What is needed is clarity on the issue from the Train Operator.

 

[PLY2AYS]

An update from who, and received when? It surely cannot be an impossible task to reinstate equipment already provided, or to train staff on its use.

What is needed is clarity on the issue from the Train Operator.

From Company Council and discussion with Chiltern Bletchley drivers over the last month.
There is a possibility my information is outdated, but I like to think I keep my finger on the pulse daily.

(When I say CCTV, that’s in reference to bodyside cameras, not onboard CCTV; which I am unaware of… to me it would be confusing if that also didn’t work, because on previous more modern traction I’ve signed (e.g. 80x) they’re all in one integrated system. However, since I don’t sign 196s, I don’t want to speculate)

 

[Falcon1200]

From Company Council and discussion with Chiltern Bletchley drivers over the last month.

Thanks! Although possibly not an entirely unbiased source.....

 

[PLY2AYS]

Thanks! Although possibly not an entirely unbiased source.....

It’s more than anyone has from Chiltern at this time!

Historically though, TOCs have been more than happy to push ‘lack of union cooperation’ into the press when there’s disruption to service delivery.

The silence from the TOC in this case is telling.

 

[CyrusWuff]

No staff at Winslow with DOO so much for a TUAG railway for wheelchair users. It does seem like cart before the horse and this will cost Chiltern in the long run either by funding guards/Station staff or paying out on acess fail legal action.

There are no staff at Winslow yet because the station isn't open. I doubt Chiltern would open a completely new station and not have a staff presence.

 

[train_lover]

Theres a lot of politics with these units which is the main issue to a lot of points being made in this thread

 

[Peter Sarf]

There are no staff at Winslow yet because the station isn't open. I doubt Chiltern would open a completely new station and not have a staff presence.

It has occurred to me that Chiltern are possibly not pushing ahead with this as hard as they could.
After all Chiltern should be focused on the larger 13 strong fleet of Mk5s plus locomotives and their implementation on London to/from Birmingham services.

 

[fishwomp]

Why can’t it be both? RMT and ASLEF are both against the extension of DOO.

It can't be both if the first (the point of principle) is real: principles don't move. So, there's no point fixing the 196s if you are actually against it on principle as there is no solution. Or, it's not principle, it's money, so they'd better get the 196s fixed.

That is entirely separate to the aspiration of the company to run DOO, which it has embarrassingly overlooked and failed to implement the technology or infrastructure for.

Like a vegetarian saying that they don't eat bacon, whilst also complaining that there's no brown sauce and the bacon needs to be unsmoked.

So even if DOO was to be agreed, it can’t be because there is no feasible way to do that at present.

What do Chiltern do here? Go buy muesli, or cook the bacon?

Hope that clears it up for you.

It's clear.. Thanks.

After all this time .. we have not figured out what is for breakfast..

It boils down to two or three simple questions.. Is anyone running the railways? Is anyone running the DfT? .. and maybe is anyone running the country?

 

[Mag_seven]

OK thats enough about DOO. We are not going down this toxic rabbit hole again.

We will lock this thread until such times as an entry into service date is confirmed.

 

[yorkie]

The dispute has reportedly been resolved; the Unions appear to have accepted that Guards will not be recruited:

£7 billion East West Rail Oxford to Milton Keynes dispute solved

A dispute that halted the much-anticipated introduction of new trains to Milton Keynes could soon come to an end, but not through the recruitment of…

www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk

A dispute that halted the much-anticipated introduction of new trains to Milton Keynes could soon come to an end, but not through the recruitment of guards...

...While a second staff member will typically be present, train doors will still be operated by drivers, meaning the absence of a second staff member in rare cases will not prevent a service from running—mirroring practices commonly seen south of London.

The trains will be Driver Only Operated, but will usually have an additional member of staff present for checking tickets, customer service etc (i.e. similar to the OBS, OBM, TTI roles on DOO services operated by GTR Southern, Southeastern HS1 and Scotrail Strathclyde services respectively)

The article goes on to suggest that services wil be in the "December 2026 timetable", though it doesn't give a start date:

...In a written statement, rail minister Lord Peter Hendy said: "Chiltern worked with Network Rail, the Department for Transport and other operators on the December 2026 timetable and services have been timetabled between Oxford, Winslow, Bletchley and Milton Keynes."

It is great if common sense prevailed and the line can now finally open.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Excellent news - and thanks @yorkie for the update. Having known and ridden this line in its old incarnation - and having seen the superbly-engineered rebuild in use for the October 2024 trials, I am looking forward to travelling it in its "reborn" condition.

 

[Starmill]

How have they solved the DOO question on the Bletchley - Milton Keynes Central section?

Or is the service to commence starting and terminating at Bletchley initially?

 

[JonathanH]

How have they solved the DOO question on the Bletchley - Milton Keynes Central section?

Or is the service to commence starting and terminating at Bletchley initially?

Is it very different to Lumo operating DOO at Milton Keynes?

 

[cle]

It's probably a good thing for PR to have someone, hopefully upbeat, as publicity to the new route and providing information and benefits. So yes ticket collecting but also spin it as a positive presence / host for the new line....

Glad it's done - is December too soon?

 

[Peter Sarf]

How much delay has this caused to the start of services ?.

Will this kind of delay get factored into justifications for future re-openings ?.
Even worse will the potential cost of a guard have to be added to the estimates of cost/economics of re-openings - just to play safe ?.

 

[800002]

he dispute has reportedly been resolved; the Unions appear to have accepted that Guards will not be recruited:

There is nothing here to outright suggest that.

The article goes on to suggest that services wil be in the "December 2026 timetable", though it doesn't give a start date:

They've been in the timetable for three timetables, now.

It is great to see that common sense prevailed and the line can now finally open

I would just wait and see.

I think there is some connecting of dots here providing the desired answer.