Jul 1987 Timetable Assistance

[03_179]

Morning all,

Does anyone have the Summer Timetable of July 1987.

I am looking for one specific train, it's route and stopping points (inc. Times)

The train is 1E31 11:40 Glasgow Central to Harwich Parkstone Quay.
Yes - The European.

From various sources and not the Timetable I have the times departing as Edinburgh 11:45 and Glasgow Central 11:40.

The route I have fond so far is:
Glasgow Central/Edinburgh - Carstairs - Birmingham New Street - Watford - Willesden Sig.58 (Diesel loco attached) - Stratford - Shenfield - Harwich Parkstone Quay.
All and any help greatly welcomed.
EDIT: Also the same in reverse please if possible
Is there a route map in the Timetables?

Thanks in advance,

 

[Magdalia]

Willesden Sig.58 (Diesel loco attached) - Stratford

This part was booked via Primrose Hill not Gospel Oak.

Southbound the diesel loco worked Willesden 58 signal to Stratford station but northbound the diesel attached at Channelsea Junction and detached at Camden Road.

Harwich Parkstone Quay

Pedantry corner Parkeston does not have an e on the end!

 

[03_179]

This part was booked via Primrose Hill not Gospel Oak.

Southbound the diesel loco worked Willesden 58 signal to Stratford station but northbound the diesel attached at Channelsea Junction and detached at Camden Road.

Thanks.
A mate and I caught it between Watford and Shenfield.
Interesting that it did the Primrose Hill route. I don't have my Quail book here but it looks like Sig 58 - through Willesden Jn LL then Primrose Hill and along NLL from there ?

Pedantry corner Parkeston does not have an e on the end!

I have edited it now.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

From the public timetable:-

Glasgow C 1140, Motherwell 1201, Carstairs 1214 and Edinburgh 1140, Haymarket 1143, Carstairs 1219.

Carstairs 1222, Carlisle 1319 / 1320, Oxenholme 1400, Lancaster 1418, Preston 1438, Crewe 1526 / 1530, Wolves 1610, B'ham NS 1631 /1648.

B'ham Int. 1700, Coventry 1712, MKC 1747, Watford Jcn. 1815, Shenfield 1933, Chelmsford 1943, Colchester 2012 /2013, Harwich PQ 2035.

 

[03_179]

From the public timetable:-

Glasgow C 1140, Motherwell 1201, Carstairs 1214 and Edinburgh 1140, Haymarket 1143, Carstairs 1219.

Carstairs 1222, Carlisle 1319 / 1320, Oxenholme 1400, Lancaster 1418, Preston 1438, Crewe 1526 / 1530, Wolves 1610, B'ham NS 1631 /1648.

B'ham Int. 1700, Coventry 1712, MKC 1747, Watford Jcn. 1815, Shenfield 1933, Chelmsford 1943, Colchester 2012 /2013, Harwich PQ 2035.

Amazing thank you very much

 

[The exile]

From the public timetable:-

Glasgow C 1140, Motherwell 1201, Carstairs 1214 and Edinburgh 1140, Haymarket 1143, Carstairs 1219.

Carstairs 1222, Carlisle 1319 / 1320, Oxenholme 1400, Lancaster 1418, Preston 1438, Crewe 1526 / 1530, Wolves 1610, B'ham NS 1631 /1648.

B'ham Int. 1700, Coventry 1712, MKC 1747, Watford Jcn. 1815, Shenfield 1933, Chelmsford 1943, Colchester 2012 /2013, Harwich PQ 2035.

Joining a train in 3 minutes - hats off to all concerned. Experienced the join frequently, but hadn’t realised it was that slick!

 

[thesignalman]

[snipped]
I don't have my Quail book here but it looks like Sig 58 - through Willesden Jn LL then Primrose Hill and along NLL from there ?

No, that would be impossible. It would run via the Up Slow, then left hand down a bit at Camden Junction to run via Primrose Hill via what was known as the Chalk Farm Curve.

John

Edit - for Chalk Farm Curve, correct to Chalk Farm Loop.

 

[jfollows]

I don't have all the timetables, but 1S85 07:50 Harwich PQ to Glasgow and Edinburgh called at Colchester, Chelmsford, Shenfield, Stratford pass 09/11, (attach & detach diesel loco), Camden Junction pass 09/x43.5. 1E31 up was 18L28.5-18L36.5 at Willesden No. 58 signal on the up slow, Willesden West London Junction pass 18/38, Camden Junction pass 18/45, slightly different timings SO using UFL to Wembley Central, Stratford 19AE05-19AE13, Shenfield, Chelmsford, Colchester, Harwich PQ arrive 20:35. AE means attach/detach assisting locomotive so the diesel loco removed there and then.

Willesden area diagrams attached; WN 58 signal is on the up slow between the two pages.

I've also attached the timetable pages I have for 1E31.

I posted the Saturday timetable on the GE for 1E31; the SX timetable is similar but more difficult to scan, and in any case you never specify the day of the week when you make these requests!

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Joining a train in 3 minutes - hats off to all concerned. Experienced the join frequently, but hadn’t realised it was that slick!

Normal practice at Carstairs was the Edinburgh portion arrived first then stood in the loop and reversed onto the rear of the train - 1987 LMR Marshalling book confirms Edinburgh attached was rear at Carstairs.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Normal practice at Carstairs was the Edinburgh portion arrived first then stood in the loop and reversed onto the rear of the train - 1987 LMR Marshalling book confirms Edinburgh attached was rear at Carstairs.

Yes, I was surprised to see the Edinburgh portion arriving second, my memory of Carstairs attachments was that the portion from Edinburgh was already waiting in the loop to be quickly shunted onto the rear of the Glasgow portion. I’m trying to picture the track layout at that time, was it possible to get into the loop from the Edinburgh direction if the Glasgow portion was already occupying the up platform at Carstairs? Or would it require the Edinburgh portion to run through Carstairs via the down platform?

Edit to add: Whatever happened I never had any feeling of impatience about the portion working at Carstairs, it all took place very efficiently.

 

[jfollows]

Taken originally from the OS Nock book, no signals, Carstairs layout attached, was only significantly changed recently.

Up through siding accessible from Edinburgh which leads to the up loop. As long as passenger trains were allowed to use the through siding.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

CORRECTION!

Sorry, folks I had a senior moment in transcribing the the times. The Edinburgh portion did indeed arrive first:-

Edinburgh 1140, Haymarket 1143, Carstairs 1214.

Glasgow portion:-

Glasgow C 1145 Motherwell 1201, Carstairs 1219.

Whole ensemble departs Carstairs 1222.

The 'European' shows the downside of sectorisation - it was routed this way to avoid Inter City picking up the tab for the traditional Provincial / Regional route to Manchester. It didn't last long and was little used south of Coventry.

 

[03_179]

No, that would be impossible. It would run via the Up Slow, then left hand down a bit at Camden Junction to run via Primrose Hill via what was known as the Chalk Farm Curve.

John

Edit - for Chalk Farm Curve, correct to Chalk Farm Loop.

Thanks for that.

I don't have all the timetables, but 1S85 07:50 Harwich PQ to Glasgow and Edinburgh called at Colchester, Chelmsford, Shenfield, Stratford pass 09/11, (attach & detach diesel loco), Camden Junction pass 09/x43.5. 1E31 up was 18L28.5-18L36.5 at Willesden No. 58 signal on the up slow, Willesden West London Junction pass 18/38, Camden Junction pass 18/45, slightly different timings SO using UFL to Wembley Central, Stratford 19AE05-19AE13, Shenfield, Chelmsford, Colchester, Harwich PQ arrive 20:35. AE means attach/detach assisting locomotive so the diesel loco removed there and then.

Willesden area diagrams attached; WN 58 signal is on the up slow between the two pages.

I've also attached the timetable pages I have for 1E31.

Brilliant thank you

CORRECTION!

Sorry, folks I had a senior moment in transcribing the the times. The Edinburgh portion did indeed arrive first:-

Edinburgh 1140, Haymarket 1143, Carstairs 1214.

Glasgow portion:-

Glasgow C 1145 Motherwell 1201, Carstairs 1219.

Whole ensemble departs Carstairs 1222.

The 'European' shows the downside of sectorisation - it was routed this way to avoid Inter City picking up the tab for the traditional Provincial / Regional route to Manchester. It didn't last long and was little used south of Coventry.

THanks I'll edit my mnotes accordingly.

 

[The exile]

Normal practice at Carstairs was the Edinburgh portion arrived first then stood in the loop and reversed onto the rear of the train - 1987 LMR Marshalling book confirms Edinburgh attached was rear at Carstairs.

Oh I know, I was on them often enough. Being on the Edinburgh portion meant it was easy to miss how tightly the operation was timed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2026 ==

Edit to add: Whatever happened I never had any feeling of impatience about the portion working at Carstairs, it all took place very efficiently.

That’s why I was surprised at the 3 minutes between the arrival from Glasgow and the departure of the combined train.

 

[jfollows]

In my 1979 working timetable it appeared to be “standard” for the Edinburgh service to be timetabled to arrive at Carstairs 5 minutes before the portion from Glasgow, which then spent 5.5 minutes in the platform and combining before leaving south. Still pretty slick anyway.

 

[Gloster]

Coaching stock was provided by the Scottish Region and consisted of two five coach rakes of Mark 2D formed of two pairs of TSO either side of a BFK, with a Mark 1 RBR between them. The RBR probably ran to Edinburgh (I can’t be certain) and on the LMR the Glasgow portion was at the front.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Coaching stock was provided by the Scottish Region and consisted of two five coach rakes of Mark 2D formed of two pairs of TSO either side of a BFK, with a Mark 1 RBR between them. The RBR probably ran to Edinburgh (I can’t be certain) and on the LMR the Glasgow portion was at the front.

The working at Carstairs meant the order swapped about and the buffet ended up inconveniently located in one direction.

In the early 1980s I think the buffet always went to Glasgow. With the down trains, the Glasgow portion was on the front with the buffet between the two portions. On up trains, the Glasgow portion was also at the front but that meant the buffet was now at the very front of the train.

At the southern terminus the stock was then marshalled back into a better order.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The working at Carstairs meant the order swapped about and the buffet ended up inconveniently located in one direction.

In the early 1980s I think the buffet always went to Glasgow. With the down trains, the Glasgow portion was on the front with the buffet between the two portions. On up trains, the Glasgow portion was also at the front but that meant the buffet was now at the very front of the train.

At the southern terminus the stock was then marshalled back into a better order.

Some workings including this one had identical half sets formed (in old lingo) 2 TSO BFK 2 TSO buffet 2 TSO BFK 2 TSO which meant no need to remarshall atthe southern end and at Polmadie swap the buffet to the other end of the half set - or turn the set running the ECS via Shields Jn.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

I agree that remarshalling or turning was possible but I can’t ever remember coming across a southbound working that didn’t have the buffet as the first carriage.

 

[hexagon789]

I agree that remarshalling or turning was possible but I can’t ever remember coming across a southbound working that didn’t have the buffet as the first carriage.

Southbound European seen at Carstairs in 1984, buffet at rear of Glasgow portion:

87033 Carstairs

87033 'Thane of Fife' approaches Carstairs with 1E87 1120 Glasgow Central to Harwich Parkeston Quay “The European” as 47602 waits to back on with 1C87 1105 Edinburgh to Carstairs portion. 2nd April 1984

flic.kr

Photo credit: Bruce Galloway/jbg06003

87033 Carstairs

87033 'Thane of Fife' approaches Carstairs with 1E87 1120 Glasgow Central to Harwich Parkeston Quay “The European” as 47602 waits to back on with 1C87 1105 Edinburgh to Carstairs portion.

2nd April 1984​

​

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I agree that remarshalling or turning was possible but I can’t ever remember coming across a southbound working that didn’t have the buffet as the first carriage.

In my experience the buffet as the front carriage was the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Two unexpected sights. Buffet in a sensible place and a class 87 on a non London working. I genuinely don’t remember seeing either in the 4 or 5 years I travelled home from Glasgow but clearly my memory was wrong. I definitely walked all the way to the rear carriage looking for a cup of tea only to find the buffet was at the other end on more than one occasion. I wouldn’t normally be on the European however so maybe some trains weren’t remarshalled.

Interesting to reminisce. Thanks.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I do recall encountering buffet on the front on the very odd occasion. I do wonder how much buffet trade may have been lost if some passengers were unwilling to walk the length of the train and decided to hold on and get food /drink after leaving the train, and thus forewarned decided on their next trip to buy their refreshments before departure.

One scenario which could have lead to buffet on the front would be a train which arrived in Carstairs from the south lunchtime/early afternoon in the 'normal' buffet in the middle formation. This would leave the buffet on rear into Glasgow. If there was insufficient time to reverse the formation that would lead to buffet on the front on the return afternoon working(s). One consequence of this however would be either remarshalling was then required at the southern destination or the set would come back next day with the buffet on the rear which would take it to Edinburgh - I do recall whilst most buffets went to/from Glasgow there was the odd one which went to/from Edinburgh perhpas for this reason and would then be front into Edinburgh and return to Carstairs on the rear and thus in the middle of the train once combined in Carstairs.

Sets which started the day in Scotland would generally be buffet rear from Glasgow and middle from Carstairs and at the end of the day any turning required could be achieved on ECS to Polmadie via Shields Jn and Larkfield Jn or a shunt in Polmadie depot.

In the 1970s the Edinburgh portions were shorter (typically four or maybe five coaches)and the Glasgow portions typically seven with the RB providing dining service in the adjacent coach. This could mean the RB was well towards the front of the souhbound train and the sets must have been turned or remarchalled at the southern end in order to maintain the Glasgow portion always front in either direction.