Could GBR Introduce "Smart" Journey Planning?

[Sorcerer]

Something I've been thinking about recently in response to helping people plan a journey as well some threads relating to short-distance journey overcrowding. The idea I had was for Great British Railways (once everything is properly integrated) to introduce new journey planning options for passengers in the form of three fare recommendations: Cheapest, Fastest and Best. The first two are already used on some ticketing sites and are pretty self-explanatory, but the idea of the "Best" recommendation would be dynamic, based on things such as journey times, class of travel, business or pleasure, expected demand, available capacity, and other optional route preferences such as a desire to go via one station or avoid another.

As a real world example, passengers travelling between Coventry and Wolverhampton. The Cheapest might be the West Midlands Railway service while the Fastest might be the Avanti West Coast service. The Best ticket in this case might recommend to a time-conscious traveller to pick the Avanti service based on journey times, or to the first class passenger if the demand is expected to be lower even if standard class is expected to be busy. Meanwhile for a standard class leisure passenger it might recommend the West Midlands Railway service if occupancy on the Avanti service is expected to be high demand. Perhaps the journey planner could even recommend changes in-case one service is expected to be busy on one part of the route.

The aim of this idea is to help passengers decide which ticket is best suited for them without making them learn what it means to have an Advance, Off-Peak or Anytime ticket (though by no means would these be abolished), and also spread the demand out better rather than trying to price people off certain types of services to manage capacity (which I do acknowledge is an industry-wide problem). It's not quite an idea I have thought a great deal about though so I am very open to civil discussion and stress-testing, especially since fare reform is hardly my area of expertise.

 

[mike57]

once everything is properly integrated

Thats the problem, there appears to be no moves to have GBR front all operations, so the silo approach will continue.

I am all in favour of fare reform, the current system is to put it bluntly a mess.

and also spread the demand out better

For people that have some flexibility with their timing this will work, but if your journey means you need to be somewhere for a specific time (can still be a leisure journey) then an option which gets you there half hour too late isnt an option.

Even getting the journey planner to give you the easiest changes (same platform) as opposed to long walks stairs and lifts is impossible without splitting tickets in a lot of cases.

I actually think the complexity of the current system v pre-privatisation is offputting to people planning a journey.

 

[SargeNpton]

Even getting the journey planner to give you the easiest changes (same platform) as opposed to long walks stairs and lifts is impossible without splitting tickets in a lot of cases.

I actually think the complexity of the current system v pre-privatisation is offputting to people planning a journey.

The data standards used by the current crop of journey planners are pretty much the same as those in the original BR timetable engine used by telephone enquiry bureau staff back in 1992 (with a few extras bolted on). On the reservations side the standards go back to CRS in the early 80s, and fares from the early 70s.

Until sometime in a position of power decides to take the whole ticketing/reservations/timetables interface away and start again from scratch, a smart journey planner is little more than a pipe dream. Each of those three modules requires some tweaks to get them all to work together, not always with 100% successful outcomes.

 

[SynthD]

TrainSplit does some of that, I’ve used it to look at journeys I intended to do on one train but hadn’t decided which one. It seems pretty obscure, and adds a lot of complication to the planning tool. It may be best on a third party site, or an additional planner on the first party site.

At some point it would just inform the user of the factors and let them resolve it in their head. Expected demand and expected coach length are two factors where I suffer flawed guesses even on a simple journey.

 

[Kite159]

Using Coventry to Wolverhampton as per your example, the hourly direct Avanti & XC service are generally limited stop (Birmingham International, New Street, Sandwell (Avanti)) compared to the half hourly London North Western services (all stations to International) with a change at New Street.

You can try and price people to use the slower services which have more seats (8 coach 350 compared with a 5 coach voyager), but something like Coventry to Wolverhampton such advance tickets will be abused with someone gambling on not getting a ticket check etc

 

[NCT]

Slightly odd choice of journey. That's like getting TfL to offer different fares for Finsbury Park - London Bridge depending on whether you use Piccadilly, Victoria or Thameslink.

 

[blimmo]

The Cheapest might be the West Midlands Railway service while the Fastest might be the Avanti West Coast service.

At the moment an Avanti only ticket is actually 10p cheaper. Although if making a return journey the wm daytripper is cheaper I believe which no online retailer will tell you...

 

[Sorcerer]

At the moment an Avanti only ticket is actually 10p cheaper. Although if making a return journey the wm daytripper is cheaper I believe which no online retailer will tell you...

In this situation the "Best" would be based on things like predicted demand and occupancy along with journey times.

 

[BrianW]

In this situation the "Best" would be based on things like predicted demand and occupancy along with journey times.

Exactly the problem- 'Best' depends on YOUR criteria.
I'm still hoping that GBR will be the end of WMR, Avanti etc etc ...

 

[Sorcerer]

Exactly the problem- 'Best' depends on YOUR criteria.

How would you determine the criteria for the 'Best' journey? Bearing in mind passengers are still free to choose the Cheapest or Fastest option even if it's not determined to be the best.

 

[Dr Day]

How would you determine the criteria for the 'Best' journey? Bearing in mind passengers are still free to choose the Cheapest or Fastest option even if it's not determined to be the best.

That could be personalised to your account, or potentially different 'personas' you could pick within your account depending on your priorities for different types of journeys you typically make. For some people it is an absolute cheapest, others the fastest, others place different penalties on the number or tightness of interchanges. Sometimes I might want to take a slightly slower but direct route if I know I can get a seat and get something done, other times I might want to risk a quicker overall journey, a tight connection and the risk of standing just because I simply want to get to where I want to be asap. The frustration is that the trend in fares structures is away moving away from allowing that flexibility, particularly if you are slightly earlier than planned or during only minor disruption.

 

[NCT]

Intra-regional journeys should be about free for all and pile them high.

For long-distance journeys, existing journey planners already do what the OP wants.

 

[Dr Day]

Intra-regional journeys should be about free for all and pile them high.

For long-distance journeys, existing journey planners already do what the OP wants.

Absolutely, at the extremes rail can be airline-like or bus-like however what about all those in-between? Ie maybe a 50 minute leg connecting into a 20-30 minute leg, with an hourly frequency the first on Operator A and 4 tph on the second with Operator B offering the slightly faster journey time over Operator C, but not overtaking. It is those sorts of journeys where one would hope a nationwide (ie not just GBR) standardisation of rail fares structures would be put in place to make things easier for the passenger.

 

[Bald Rick]

Absolutely, at the extremes rail can be airline-like or bus-like however what about all those in-between? Ie maybe a 50 minute leg connecting into a 20-30 minute leg, with an hourly frequency the first on Operator A and 4 tph on the second with Operator B offering the slightly faster journey time over Operator C, but not overtaking. It is those sorts of journeys where one would hope a nationwide (ie not just GBR) standardisation of rail fares structures would be put in place to make things easier for the passenger.

But 99%+ of rail journeys are nothing like this. Almost all are point to point with no changes. And most of the rest are one changewith no choice of alternative services on either leg.

 

[Dr Day]

But 99%+ of rail journeys are nothing like this. Almost all are point to point with no changes. And most of the rest are one changewith no choice of alternative services on either leg.

I’m clearly in a tiny minority then, but maybe that suggests rail needs to re-think if it wants to get more of the overall market for those medium-distance inter-regional or at least inter-TOC journeys? But maybe it doesn’t need to and is doing the right thing as a wider business by focusing on what it is naturally better at? Hence moving towards a combination of AP and defined-region PAYG, with nothing much left in between.

Although in fairness it is probably not just the fares structure but the timetable and interchange that puts people off rail for most of those medium distance trips, unless one end is London.