Locomotive Names - What were the reasons, the logic, the effects, the value?

[70014IronDuke]

<NB – This thread is not meant to be about the modern prices/monetary values of locomotive nameplates and other railwayana. There is, somewhere, a dedicated thread for that subject.>

For some random reason while washing up this week my mind wandered to consider locomotive nameplates, or rather, why railway companies bothered to name some locomotives (generally their express passenger engines, of course) and whether they ever sought to measure whether the results justified the costs?

Or did Lord Hurcombe, Sir Brian Robertson, William Whitelaw and the like merely pat themselves on the back when they saw 'their locomotive' pass by or get referred to?

And what were the policies followed regarding naming? (Why no, for example, Florence Nightingale, Jethro Tull or Dr Edward Jenner among the Britannias – some would say all far greater benefactors to the UK and indeed the entire planet than Robin Hood?)

Now, as a spotter/enthusiast, of course, a 'namer' was always special, even if it was only painted on – as the Byngs and Maudes etc were of the J36s. I certainly remember when I saw my first named Black 5, even if it performed no better than its 838 anonymous, similarly black siblings.

Did the footplate crews take pride, and therefore feel greater job satisfaction when in charge of a named locomotive? One would expect so, at least to some extent, since these would normally be the top-link men, at the pinnacle of their careers in the case of some drivers.

But if an unnamed V2 turned up instead of a Gresley pacific because Gateshead couldn't get their act together and service an A4, did that then have a reverse effect?

And could you get too much of a 'good thing' on the GWR? Kings – ok, Castles, yeah, fair enough. But I mean, scores of named mixed-traffic 4-6-0s, all named after grand residences somewhere on the system seems a bit of overkill.

But what about your average passenger? Did anyone's patriotic heart beat faster as Indomitable, Malta GC or North Borneo (my first Jub, as it happens) pulled into the platform at the head of a train? Well, I suppose the doting parent travelling with kids would explain such names to the kids when travelling together, so it created an interest in the railway for some.

The only sort-of official company comment on naming locomotives that I remember seeing is in reference to the LSWR/SR and its King Arthurs, the names of which were supposedly well received by their travelling public. (And some of them were rather evocative – who is this Sir Harry Le Fise Lake, the mysterious Maid of Astolat, let alone Lady of the Lake?)

But how did the railway PR folk know this? Did they do passenger surveys?

One thing I've noticed is the physical elegance of a curved splasher nameplate. Somewhere on the internet is a side-on photo of one of those named Black 5s (45156, I think) on Kentish Town shed. It's almost certainly when steam still reigned supreme on the Midland, as it's beautifully clean, and the nameplate just adds a whole aesthetic level to the locomotive's lines, its aura - well it does to the eyes of this beholder.

As for favourite names, well the pick of the bunch for me are among the LNER pacifics, specifically the A3s and A2s. Blink Bonny, Galtee More, Bayardo, Sayajirao, Hal 'o the Wynd – What, who were these? People? Places? What was this all about?

Splendid randomness, fabulous imagery – but not sure really if these or Mortehoe or County of Caernarvon or The Laird of Balmawhapple actually brought in any additional farebox revenue.

I couldn't really say the named diesels or electrics had the same charisma. Well, the Westerns and Warships were pretty good. Sherwood Forester on the Class 45 brought back memories of the former Royal Scot, but they were generally flat and plain square or rectangular and aluminium, which didn't help.
Has any author ever written a book on the subject of locomotive names?
Thoughts and (especially) factual results of any railway historical documents welcome.

I'll put this in the Railway History forum, even though, since I suppose some naming is still being done, it could justify the Rail Discussion category.

 

[Merle Haggard]

One of the conditions of naming a loco. - at least in the freight business - was that if it was to celebrate an individual they had to be dead. This was because there was the possibility that a living recipient might, after the naming, do something scandalous*. This is also, I understand, the policy for shipping. It at least gave a reason to decline a suggestion from a customer to name a loco after their MD. On receiving such a suggestion one of my bosses in re turn often suggested subtly what change needed to be made for the idea to be accepted

On Railfreight naming - apart from the 60s - was only to flatter the customer and normally consisted of a naming ceremony on a freshly-overhauled loco followed by a 'jolly' in a saloon attached to the back of one of their trains. It was this world that gave us 'Halewood transmission Plant Silver Jubilee 1972 - 1997' (I might have mis-remembered the years) amongst other memorable gems. And a mounted presentation nameplate for the customer.

The Class 60 naming policy was very clearly set out and the original document had something on the lines of 'no names of a militaristic or jingoistic nature and no flattering of personalities or corporations'. The list nevertheless provided many interesting names and IMO it was a great shame that some were re-named very much in contradiction to what was originally intended.

The LNER thought that, because racehorses are synonymous with speed then their names would be appropriate for express locos. to suggest something similar. It fell at the first hurdle (!) in that no racehorse's name as far as I know has ever indicated speed. You only have to look at a list of A1/A3 names.

* you don't have to think very hard for one very likely recipient strongly associated with rail that would have been dreadful in hindsight.

 

[Gloster]

‘Tell Sir Herbert I have no objection, but I warn you that it won’t make any difference to the working of the engine.’ Richard Maunsell’s reaction to Sir Herbert Walker’s suggestion to give the new N15 locos Arthurian names.

I suspect that the habit may have started because the new machines were ‘iron horses’ and like horses they were given names. It also made it easy to identify which loco was being discussed and only later did they have to add numbers because there were just too many for clarity and time on the telegraph. (”Did you say Fireball or Firebrand, Stentor or Mentor?”) Later on there was also the opportunity to hint that this loco with a name was something special, i.e. fast, in the same way that the latest Maserrarri is given some idiotic AI-produced name. There was also the intention to produce a feeling of solidity: those castles had been around for years, hadn’t they?

After that it was (personal opinion) a mixture of ‘we’ve always done ‘it like that’, currying favour with the great and good and flattering the railway high-ups, and a certain amount of publicity. Bear in mind that the heyday of names was long before the mass-media implanted its pernicious homogenisation in every corner of the country. Piquing the curiosity of people was good publicity and subtly linking the locos with things that people admired or liked, whether they were royalty, nobility, military, solid cities or pleasant resorts (or even Worcestershire fruit) was good for the railway.

That is all for the moment: I will probably add more later as the choice of subjects, here and abroad, interests me.

 

[Magdalia]

As for favourite names, well the pick of the bunch for me are among the LNER pacifics, specifically the A3s and A2s. Blink Bonny, Galtee More, Bayardo, Sayajirao – What, who were these? People? Places? What was this all about?

All of these are racehorses.

The LNER had a tradition of naming locomotives after racehorses, especially "classic" winners, continued into the BR era with the Finsbury Park Deltics.

This made sound commercial sense as Newmarket, Doncaster, York and Lincoln all hosted major race meetings, including the "classic" 2000 Guineas and 1000 Guineas at Newmarket and the St Leger at Doncaster. All of these generated lots of traffic moving both the racehorses and the spectators to and from the racecourses. In the LNER and early BR era the railway also played an important part in the smooth functioning of the Tattersalls Yearling sales, including running horsebox specials from Newmarket to Holyhead for the yearlings going to Ireland for training.

Locomotive names became much more blatantly commercial when it was revived in the 1970s, starting with a class 86 named Glenfiddich.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Wonderful topic @70014IronDuke - although, your sizeable post makes me think you did a herculean washing-up stint!

Thinking back to Rainhill - of "Sans Pareil", "Novelty", "Rocket" - I wonder (no more, as I cannot evidence it) whether a name was a way to endear a still-curious-cum-hesitant public to these "steeds" of iron. After all, I have yet to find a horse known only by a number.

So I concur with @Gloster

As an aside -a fondness for evocative names of racehorses and antelopes, I was disappointed the B1 names omitted a small breed of antelope.
Mind you, a brass nameplate proclaiming "Dik-dik" might've led to confusion.

 

[LYradial]

Which makes me wonder which came first, the naming of a class of locomotive as in Kings, Castles, Halls, and on the LMS Jubilees princess royals, and even more exotic names on the LNWR, even including the Cauliflower goods.

were the locomotives named by the class or did the loco names give rise to the class name.

 

[Gloster]

Which makes me wonder which came first, the naming of a class of locomotive as in Kings, Castles, Halls, and on the LMS Jubilees princess royals, and even more exotic names on the LNWR, even including the Cauliflower goods.

were the locomotives named by the class or did the loco names give rise to the class name.

Both. Mostly class names were decided when a theme was thought up: once you had decided to name locos after kings, they became Kings. Sometimes it was the first loco, or first named loco, or a particular notable member of the class that gave their name to the whole class.

(Cauliflowers were unnamed. The name came from the design used for LNWR crest.)

 

[John Webb]

There is a fairly lengthy entry on this subject in "The Oxford Companion to British Railway History" (Simmons and Biddle, OUP 1997)

Trevithick's "Catch-me-who-can" was the first recorded loco name. As the railways developed some companies only recorded their loco stock by names, chosen from a wide range of subjects. It was only in the 20th C that 'classes' of locos with a common theme to their names started becoming commonplace.
BR only named its express passenger locos, and continued this into the early diesel days until they lost interest and abandoned naming of locos.

The article points out that naming was also common on private railways such as narrow gauge and industrial lines; it is claimed that such lines at one time totalled several thousand named locos in addition to the main line ones.

The article goes on to point out that more recent names have been something of a short-term publicity effort rather than re-establishing the early tradition.

 

[Magdalia]

BR only named its express passenger locos, and continued this into the early diesel days until they lost interest and abandoned naming of locos.

The BR corporate identity of the mid 1960s actively disapproved of locomotive names.

Naming of locomotives was restarted when Peter Parker became BRB chair.

The article goes on to point out that more recent names have been something of a short-term publicity effort rather than re-establishing the early tradition.

Some were blatant means of gaining free advertising, such as names of TV programmes and local newspapers.

 

[webbfan]

Both. Mostly class names were decided when a theme was thought up: once you had decided to name locos after kings, they became Kings. Sometimes it was the first loco, or first named loco, or a particular notable member of the class that gave their name to the whole class.

(Cauliflowers were unnamed. The name came from the design used for LNWR crest.)

With the LNWR the class name normally came from the name of the first member of the class to be built. However in the case of the Whitworth/Waterloo it was the first built and the first one to enter traffic - no cannot remember which is which. Similarly with the Problem/Lady of the Lake class, Problem was the first built but Lady of the Lake was shown at the International Exhibition. Interestingly there was a Problem named Napolean.

 

[Martyr]

Or did Lord Hurcombe, Sir Brian Robertson, William Whitelaw and the like merely pat themselves on the back when they saw 'their locomotive' pass by or get referred to?

William Whitelaw, chairman of the LNER, used to joke there were three locomotives running on his system at the same time all named after him:

The Pacific 'William Whitelaw'
D30 4-4-0 'Wandering Willie'
J36 0-6-0 'Ole Bill'

 

[Merle Haggard]

With the LNWR the class name normally came from the name of the first member of the class to be built. However in the case of the Whitworth/Waterloo it was the first built and the first one to enter traffic - no cannot remember which is which. Similarly with the Problem/Lady of the Lake class, Problem was the first built but Lady of the Lake was shown at the International Exhibition. Interestingly there was a Problem named Napolean.

And, later, - indeed after the Titanic disaster - named a loco J Bruce Ismay.

 

[Gloster]

And, later, - indeed after the Titanic disaster - named a loco J Bruce Ismay.

Ismay had been a director of the L&NWR: I am not sure when, but he seems to have been one before 1905, but probably resigned in 1913. He seems to have come back later as he appears to have been one of the L&NWR directors who continued on with the LMS, probably resigning around 1929. One suspects after a ‘decent’ pause, during which the losses of the war had overshadowed those of the Titanic, money allowed him to return to the fold.

 

[Ashley Hill]

As I see it loco namings were originally seen as a prestige thing. Important passenger services with a named loco looked important to the public.
Until the early 1980s IMO locos were given sensible names, and then the publicity men stepped in. Advertising and sponsorship then came into play. Locos named after local newspapers, BBC news programs, major freight customers often resulted in the renaming of locos. This resulted in HST power cars, 47s and 37s and many more locos receiving several different names throughout their lifetimes therefore devaluing any name previously carried. Naming a loco therefore became a cheap short term publicity exercise.

 

[xotGD]

Modern day LNER should bring back the racehorse names. As the Azumas are based in Doncaster, then I suggest naming them all after past winners of the St Ledger.

 

[The exile]

The “radical idea” was giving locomotives numbers….

 

[Peterthegreat]

Modern day LNER should bring back the racehorse names. As the Azumas are based in Doncaster, then I suggest naming them all after past winners of the St Ledger.

Pedant warning.
St Leger.

 

[70014IronDuke]

One of the conditions of naming a loco. - at least in the freight business - was that if it was to celebrate an individual they had to be dead. This was because there was the possibility that a living recipient might, after the naming, do something scandalous*. This is also, I understand, the policy for shipping. It at least gave a reason to decline a suggestion from a customer to name a loco after their MD. On receiving such a suggestion one of my bosses in re turn often suggested subtly what change needed to be made for the idea to be accepted

On Railfreight naming - apart from the 60s - was only to flatter the customer and normally consisted of a naming ceremony on a freshly-overhauled loco followed by a 'jolly' in a saloon attached to the back of one of their trains. It was this world that gave us 'Halewood transmission Plant Silver Jubilee 1972 - 1997' (I might have mis-remembered the years) amongst other memorable gems. And a mounted presentation nameplate for the customer.

Lol!

The Class 60 naming policy was very clearly set out and the original document had something on the lines of 'no names of a militaristic or jingoistic nature and no flattering of personalities or corporations'. The list nevertheless provided many interesting names and IMO it was a great shame that some were re-named very much in contradiction to what was originally intended.

Thanks for this. I knew next to nothing about naming policies from the late 70s onwards, except that there were some awful ones!

The LNER thought that, because racehorses are synonymous with speed then their names would be appropriate for express locos. to suggest something similar. It fell at the first hurdle (!) in that no racehorse's name as far as I know has ever indicated speed. You only have to look at a list of A1/A3 names.

Hal o' the Wynd might have been speedie - but I'm not sure, was it a racehorse name?

‘Tell Sir Herbert I have no objection, but I warn you that it won’t make any difference to the working of the engine.’ Richard Maunsell’s reaction to Sir Herbert Walker’s suggestion to give the new N15 locos Arthurian names.

Maunsell was clearly a spoil sport!

I suspect that the habit may have started because the new machines were ‘iron horses’ and like horses they were given names. It also made it easy to identify which loco was being discussed and only later did they have to add numbers because there were just too many for clarity and time on the telegraph. (”Did you say Fireball or Firebrand, Stentor or Mentor?”) Later on there was also the opportunity to hint that this loco with a name was something special, i.e. fast, in the same way that the latest Maserrarri is given some idiotic AI-produced name. There was also the intention to produce a feeling of solidity: those castles had been around for years, hadn’t they?

After that it was (personal opinion) a mixture of ‘we’ve always done ‘it like that’, currying favour with the great and good and flattering the railway high-ups, and a certain amount of publicity. Bear in mind that the heyday of names was long before the mass-media implanted its pernicious homogenisation in every corner of the country. Piquing the curiosity of people was good publicity

Yep, some good points above, especially the latter blocked

and subtly linking the locos with things that people admired or liked, whether they were royalty, nobility, military, solid cities or pleasant resorts (or even Worcestershire fruit) was good for the railway.

That one passes me by, I'm afraid. Apples?
Made me wonder, however, while we had football clubs, we've never had County Cricket equivalents, have we? Famous cricketers? BR clearly missed a trick when Garry Sobers hit six sixers back in the day!

That is all for the moment: I will probably add more later as the choice of subjects, here and abroad, interests me.

Waiting ....

All of these are racehorses.

Yes, of course, I learned that later. As an eight-year old, it just seemed a world of fantasy though.

The LNER had a tradition of naming locomotives after racehorses, especially "classic" winners, continued into the BR era with the Finsbury Park Deltics.

This made sound commercial sense as Newmarket, Doncaster, York and Lincoln all hosted major race meetings, including the "classic" 2000 Guineas and 1000 Guineas at Newmarket and the St Leger at Doncaster. All of these generated lots of traffic moving both the racehorses and the spectators to and from the racecourses. In the LNER and early BR era the railway also played an important part in the smooth functioning of the Tattersalls Yearling sales, including running horsebox specials from Newmarket to Holyhead for the yearlings going to Ireland for training.

Yes, horse racing clearly had strong links to rail back in those days, and any blatant brown nosing to rich owners etc was lost, more or less, by the mid 1960s, certainly the horse-box traffic.

Locomotive names became much more blatantly commercial when it was revived in the 1970s, starting with a class 86 named Glenfiddich.

Was that indeed the first of a new generation of commercially-linked naming policy?

 

[Henffordd]

The “radical idea” was giving locomotives numbers….

You mean, like Locomotion No. 1??

 

[Gloster]

That one passes me by, I'm afraid. Apples?

In 1927 the National Farmers Union contacted the GWR and suggested that a local centenary should be celebrated. So Bulldog 4-4-0 3353 had its name altered from Plymouth to Pershore Plum.

 

[sprinterguy]

Hal o' the Wynd might have been speedie - but I'm not sure, was it a racehorse name?

Hal o' the Wynd was a character in one of Walter Scott's 'Waverley' novels, the name first being applied in a railway context to one of the North British 'Scott' class 4-4-0s, subsequently passing to a Peppercorn A1 Pacific and latterly to a class 87 electric locomotive.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Yes, horse racing clearly had strong links to rail back in those days

LNER had strong links with pigeon raicng, even constructing dedicated pigeon vans (with shelves to stack pigeon-carrying baskets).
Part of me wishes the LNER had named a mixed-traffic class after early 20th Century successful pigeon-racers.
I don't suppose the pigeons, thenselves, had names...

 

[Merle Haggard]

Modern day LNER should bring back the racehorse names. As the Azumas are based in Doncaster, then I suggest naming them all after past winners of the St Ledger.

I'm not sure that the general public would realise the significance of them in isolation, though.
In my opinion, the only race horse name that almost everybody recognises is 'Shergar'. I will leave others to suggest what traction that name might be appropriate for in the hope that history repeats itself

 

[Gloster]

I think that one reasons for racehorse names being so popular was that the Directors and possibly even the most senior managers moved in the same circles as the racehorse owners, but it was also one area in which they saw the ‘common’ people being interested (*) and so it could appeal to two groups in their eyes. It was also the ‘Sport of Kings’, so in an era when royalty was widely worshipped, it associated the loco with such an admired group. Admittedly, the leading horse owner amongst them was Edward VII, who liked fast horses and faster women: it would have been interesting if a company had named locos after his paramours. (Though the GCR 8B atlantics were nicknamed Jersey Lilies.)

* - In those days how many of the ‘great and good’ were known to be interested in football?

 

[Acathater]

If they really wanted to relate to the "common" people they should have named a few after greyhounds.....Mick the Miller maybe?

 

[Gloster]

If they really wanted to relate to the "common" people they should have named a few after greyhounds.....Mick the Miller maybe?

I don’t think that relating to the ‘common’ people was seen as a particular important matter, just a bit of a bonus. The trouble is that other than Mick the Miller and one or two others, even in the heyday of greyhound racing it was still a relatively minor sport. The same applied to pigeon racing.

They could have chosen cricketers, another sport that (sort of) bridged the social divide. But here you would have that many of the best players were, well, let us say ‘not gentlemen’. One would have loved to see an Australian visitor‘s reaction on encountering a loco called Douglas Jardine.

 

[LYradial]

9’’,

 

[LYradial]

9’’,

How did that happen, I never knowingly made a reply, but now I am here should we name an azuma after the 1942 St. Leger winner

 

[Magdalia]

I think that one reasons for racehorse names being so popular was that the Directors and possibly even the most senior managers moved in the same circles as the racehorse owners, but it was also one area in which they saw the ‘common’ people being interested (*) and so it could appeal to two groups in their eyes. It was also the ‘Sport of Kings’, so in an era when royalty was widely worshipped, it associated the loco with such an admired group. Admittedly, the leading horse owner amongst them was Edward VII, who liked fast horses and faster women: it would have been interesting if a company had named locos after his paramours. (Though the GCR 8B atlantics were nicknamed Jersey Lilies.)

* - In those days how many of the ‘great and good’ were known to be interested in football?

In the LNER and early BR era horse racing was the biggest spectator sport after football. It is important to remember that until 1960 it was very difficult for most people to gamble on the horse racing (or anything apart from football pools) except at the course.

I'm not sure that the general public would realise the significance of them in isolation, though.
In my opinion, the only race horse name that almost everybody recognises is 'Shergar'.

Most who gambled would know their significance. They would know the bloodlines of the horses racing in the "classics", many of which were previous classic winners, for example Meld was sired by Alycidon.

My grandfather was a racing fan and as a child I was taken to see Brigadier Gerard run at Newmarket. Through him I also knew other classic racehorses of that era, including Nijinsky and Mill Reef.

I suggest naming them all after past winners of the St Ledger.

Was he the patron saint of turf accountants?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Charles Collett, CME of the GWR and a contrary fellow, allegedly gave GWR Director names to his economy rebuild 'Dukedogs' out of mischief. They were ancient looking affairs even for the time, if very successful, and their lordships objected. New and nearly new 'Castles' had to be hastily renamed to placate them.