Which would you prefer for Warrington Bank Quay line?

[northwichcat]

Option 1: Llandundo service makes less stops between Manchester and Chester with new hourly Manchester-Chester stopping service.

Option 2: Llandudno-Manchester service stays as is (except possibly more Airport services) and new hourly Ellesmere Port-Helsby-Manchester service introduced.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Fewer stops on the North Wales service please (skip Helsby, Frodsham and Earlestown, which would be served by new hourly Chester-Manchester Vic service).
I don't think anyone's in a rush to introduce more empty services to Ellesmere Port.

Bank Quay is an odd station. Not that many local users to Manchester (they mostly use Central), but plenty to Chester/North Wales (both locals and changing to/from WCML).
The Liverpool service also looks mostly empty leaving BQ (again, locals prefer Central).
On top of that it doesn't seem to have a reversing facility, with terminating trains being shunted off to sidings to reverse, despite the old bay still existing on the NW side. Maybe the reconstruction in progress will change things.

If we're not careful, in 2013 there will be a fully electrified route between WBQ and Manchester, but no electric trains using it. Seems a bit odd.

 

[northwichcat]

Fewer stops on the North Wales service please (skip Helsby, Frodsham and Earlestown, which would be served by new hourly Chester-Manchester Vic service).

Note that I didn't say anything about sending a Chester-Manchester stopper to Victoria. Giving stations a Manchester Victoria service instead of a Manchester Piccadilly service (opposed to as well as) is a very controversial issue. It was suggested in a RUS previously that stations like Helsby, Frodsham and Earlestown would lose their Piccadilly service and a lot of the responses were strongly against it.

I don't think anyone's in a rush to introduce more empty services to Ellesmere Port.

Why would they be empty? From Helsby onwards the stations to Manchester would be the same on either a Chester-Manchester or an Ellesmere Port-Manchester service.

From my experience of the line the biggest off-peak flow on the line after Manchester-Chester is people travelling between Warrington Bank Quay and Runcorn East so they could easily use either a Ellesmere Port-Manchester service or a Chester-Manchester service.

Ellesmere Port has the popular Cheshire Oaks and Blue Planet Aquarium nearby but no real public transport from the eastern side. The line also serves the Stanlow refinery but again there is no real service for the workers.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Note that I didn't say anything about sending a Chester-Manchester stopper to Victoria. Giving stations a Manchester Victoria service instead of a Manchester Piccadilly service (opposed to as well as) is a very controversial issue. It was suggested in a RUS previously that stations like Helsby, Frodsham and Earlestown would lose their Piccadilly service and a lot of the responses were strongly against it.



Why would they be empty? From Helsby onwards the stations to Manchester would be the same on either a Chester-Manchester or an Ellesmere Port-Manchester service.

Ellesmere Port has the popular Cheshire Oaks and Blue Planet Aquarium nearby but no real public transport from the eastern side. The line also serves the Stanlow refinery but again there is no real service for the workers.

The reason no-one uses the Helsby to E Port trains are the times and the connections. Four trains a day (2 each way) at times that are completely unsuitable for connects to Liverpool etc. Also, the location of E Port station is not great for access to Cheshire Oaks.

 

[northwichcat]

Also, the location of E Port station is not great for access to Cheshire Oaks.

Buses run every 15 minutes between Ellesmere Port and Blue Planet and Cheshire Oaks taking 9 minutes. If you catch the bus from Chester it'll take you just under half an hour. If you lived in the Halton Lea area of Runcorn and were travelling to Blue Planet, you wouldn't choose the via Chester option if a via Ellesmere Port option was available.

 

[WestCoast]

Buses run every 15 minutes between Ellesmere Port and Blue Planet and Cheshire Oaks taking 9 minutes. If you catch the bus from Chester it'll take you just under half an hour. If you lived in the Halton Lea area of Runcorn and were travelling to Blue Planet, you wouldn't choose the via Chester option if a via Ellesmere Port option was available.

£4.00 return with G.H.A Coaches from Ellesmere Port station to the shopping outlet! :roll:

 

[185]

Option 3.
An additional express, the extended Manchester-Hull, calling Oxford Road, WBQ and Chester only.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would choose option 1 for a new hourly stopping service between Chester and Manchester, but would ask a question about the Chester to Manchester Airport service that has been discussed many times on this forum over time.
Would this enter the equation?

 

[northwichcat]

I would choose option 1 for a new hourly stopping service between Chester and Manchester, but would ask a question about the Chester to Manchester Airport service that has been discussed many times on this forum over time.
Would this enter the equation?

The Manchester Hub document recommends an hourly Airport-Chester service once the Ordsall Chord has been built.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....The Liverpool service also looks mostly empty leaving BQ (again, locals prefer Central)....

I wouldn't be suprised if it was a PTE funding thing with GMPTE not wishing to fund a 2tph stopping service through Eccles (because of revenue from the tram) and as the train can't wait at Earlestown (freight uses the curve) it has to go on to Warrington.

As I understand it, with the new electrification happening, that service would go to Manchester instead. If it did that now it could go on to Huddersfield (like the current stopper goes to Stalybridge) with no additional units required.

 

[KingboyD]

How about connecting Bank Quay to the south of the WCML with a stopper? For example Hartford, Acton Bridge Bank Quay?

 

[northwichcat]

I wouldn't be suprised if it was a PTE funding thing with GMPTE not wishing to fund a 2tph stopping service through Eccles (because of revenue from the tram) and as the train can't wait at Earlestown (freight uses the curve) it has to go on to Warrington.

GMPTE actually proposed the Airport-Lime Street service should serve Eccles (presumably to give Eccles a direct Airport link) and Northern rejected it saying Eccles is too small to be served by a semi-fast service.

As I understand it, with the new electrification happening, that service would go to Manchester instead. If it did that now it could go on to Huddersfield (like the current stopper goes to Stalybridge) with no additional units required.

That happens on some peak services now but it requires a wait of around 10 minutes at Victoria due to paths/platform availability. It would cause too many problems to do it on all peak services as the Huddersfield line can't take 4 carriage trains while some Victoria-Lime Street services are and need to be 4 carriage trains.

 

[185]

Option 2 - Ellesmere Port would be good, however, for growth the service should paths permitting be allowed to extend via the bay at Hooton, switch ends and on to Chester.

As for Cheshire Oaks, which was mentioned before, I have always thought if Merseyrail can't run through the refinery, they should instead spur right alongside the M53 for a 1.4 mile extension to the retail park, which could also be a huge Liverpool park and ride winner being the junction of the M56 and M53. The Ellesmere Ports are underused at the mo during the day.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Option 2 - Ellesmere Port would be good, however, for growth the service should paths permitting be allowed to extend via the bay at Hooton, switch ends and on to Chester.

As for Cheshire Oaks, which was mentioned before, I have always thought if Merseyrail can't run through the refinery, they should instead spur right alongside the M53 for a 1.4 mile extension to the retail park, which could also be a huge Liverpool park and ride winner being the junction of the M56 and M53. The Ellesmere Ports are underused at the mo during the day.

My understanding is that when Merseyrail first mooted running a third rail to Helsby, Shell complained that the nearby gas plant could be adversely affected if there was a leak and a crossover flash at the same time. Within months of the decision being made not to run the third rail, Shell closed the gas plant.
As we now have steam trains running on the line and the gas plant has long gone etc, it may be that it is feasible to run third rail to Helsby. Whether there is a financial case for doing so in another matter. However an interchange with Merseyrail onto a line for connections to Man Airport and Liverpool Airport via the Halton Curve may be financially viable.