BR Tendering, By Who, When & Where Questions

[Andy873]

I'm still none the wiser with regards to some aspects of tendering BR for work.

In the following example, which department / office would advertise for tenders, when and where?

1. Meeting held January 1966 - Purpose, close the passenger station (1-5-66) and secure the buildings (which are to remain in situ).

2. Meeting held early February 1967 - Purpose, identify which buildings at a former passenger station are to be demolished. The meeting had representatives from several BR departments present as did the first meeting.

3. Early May 1967 - The C.C.E.O. (Chief Civil Engineer's Office) sends copies of minutes of the above meeting to various departments and asks for estimates for the work a.s.a.p.

4. 19 August 1967 - Demolition of the buildings at the station are complete.

So who would "advertise" for the demolition work?
Where would you make companies aware of the required work? General newspapers?
And in steps 1 to 4 above, at what stage are the tenders advertised?

What I do know - A rep from a company interesting in tendering would be invited by someone from an Engineering dept on site to show them around, point out what's going and what's to stay. I have a letter to one company who won the tender to remove one of the station's bridges, in the letter it mentions their on-site meeting and informs them they have got the contract for the work.

This station was demolished quickly in my eyes (steps 2 to 4), did BR have a pre-compiled list of companies that have indicated they are interested in such work? as far as I can make out, such work had to be done by competitive tendering.

 

[SargeNpton]

I can only assume that invitations to tender varied according to the job.

St John's Street station in Northampton closed in 1939 but wasn't demolished until the 1960s. According to the photos in the local newspaper archives, the demolition was carried out by a local one-man band operation.

 

[Gloster]

Although it is not an area I have ever had anything to do with, I would suggest that all jobs except those requiring specialist handling (‘Wossat in 1966?’) would be offered via the local or regional press in the public notices section. It might be that larger jobs, possibly calculated on estimated cost or man-hours, were advertised nationally or in specialist trade papers. But these are guesses.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Did BR have a list of “approved “ contractors who could bid for work? Presumably the demolition of a station meant exactly that, knock it down and take away the remains.
How lucrative were these contracts for the demolition companies, did recycling materials such as roof slates exist in the 60s? Obviously any metalwork could be weighed in for scrap.

 

[stuving]

Although it is not an area I have ever had anything to do with, I would suggest that all jobs except those requiring specialist handling (‘Wossat in 1966?’) would be offered via the local or regional press in the public notices section. It might be that larger jobs, possibly calculated on estimated cost or man-hours, were advertised nationally or in specialist trade papers. But these are guesses.

I can't find anything in the newspapers that fits that. So either the notices were worded in a very unexpected way, or appeared only in publications not in the BNA, or else there was a list of contractors (selected, approved, or just known about) who were notified directly of relevant jobs for them. That would still permit competition, if that was seen as essential at that date.

 

[Clarence Yard]

There would be a list of locally approved or known contractors that the CCE could request a quote from.

The other possibility is that the CCE would tell the DCE to do the work himself with his own labour force, especially if the job was to be a quick and relatively straight forward one.

 

[Rescars]

At the risk of stating the obvious, by definition demolition contractors only carry out one assignment at any given location. Gaining inclusion on a list of approved local contractors would not be a guarantee of repeat business!

 

[Andy873]

St John's Street station in Northampton closed in 1939 but wasn't demolished until the 1960s. According to the photos in the local newspaper archives, the demolition was carried out by a local one-man band operation.

Yes, there are many instances where stations were demolished quickly and also over longer periods of time.

Did BR have a list of “approved “ contractors who could bid for work? Presumably the demolition of a station meant exactly that, knock it down and take away the remains.
How lucrative were these contracts for the demolition companies, did recycling materials such as roof slates exist in the 60s? Obviously any metalwork could be weighed in for scrap.

I'm of the opinion that BR did compile a list of companies who had done work for them of which they were satisfied with. I don't think many commercial companies after completing a job for BR, and then asked - Would you like to be kept informed of any other future work we might have? would say No. This all means that over time some sort of list could be compiled with those companies who are interested in forthcoming work.

Let's ask this question - What would you do if you're the person who has to organise these things and get competitive quotes from companies (BRB 16 conditions)? For me, I would absolutely compile a go to list of companies as it would fast track the process. Lets take a list of 10 companies, you write to them about some work, 7 are interested and tender for the job. In my books that's still competitive tendering. If however, only 1 tenders, then it's going to have to be advertised more publicly.

Regarding demolition work I've searched for:

I can't find anything in the newspapers that fits that.

And nor can I! Which all leads me back to some sort of list...

There would be a list of locally approved or known contractors that the CCE could request a quote from.

And that's what I think.

I know for a fact (have copies of BR letters) that for track removal of under 6 track miles BR had a short list of companies already under contract for this, so why not a larger list for other work?

Some clues? - A year after the station was demolished, the goods depot was closing and some track needed removing as too did a bridge that connected the depot with the main Down branch line. This work was identified at the same time as the demolition meeting but never done as the depot was at that time still open. The company that did this work (bridge / track removal) got the job via the competitive tendering process. BR's letter to them confirms this.

Now this acceptance of their tender was very quick! They tender £350, 0s, 0d on 25 October 1967, BR write back giving them the work only two days later, another example of some sort of list of companies to fast track the work?

Gaining inclusion on a list of approved local contractors would not be a guarantee of repeat business!

Correct, but it would give you some sort of chance to bid for new work if asked to tender.

When to ask for tenders? - In my opening thread, you can see there is a clear three month gap between the meeting to identify the station's building which are to be demolished and the C.C.E. asking various departments for their estimates. Wouldn't this be the time to get tenders in? after the meeting but before one of the bigger bosses asks for your estimates that concern your department.

Local or non-local contractors? - Seems BR in the case of this branch line used both. Non-local for the bridge and track removal at one site, local to demolish one of the other stations.

Speed of work - This could be very quick or drag on depending on the priority BR placed upon the work concerned. The bridge / track removal BR stated to the company that it had to be completed within 2 weeks of commencement. The station demolition was done in under 3 months, and yet the local contractor who demolished one of the other stations took almost a year to do so! Mind you, this other station was on a closed part of the branch, the other work was on the operational section. One common factor though was getting the roofs off these station buildings, not only is it the practical place to start, but once a roof is off a building, BR can inform the local council and stop paying rates on it.

 

[Belperpete]

BR would prepare the estimates in-house. Authority for the job would depend on how much it was estimated to cost, the bigger the cost the higher up the organisation it would need to go for authority, and probably for tendering too.

So demolishing a single building might be dealt with by the local area engineer, dealing with a whole line might be up to the divisional or even regional engineer. It would also depend on how the work was divided up, if it was dealt with as one big job, or many small jobs.

As I recall, engineers would have a "delegated authority", the higher up the organisation the bigger your authority was. This was the amount that you were allowed to spend on a single purchase order, as distinct to your budget for each project and your annual budget. So you might have a budget for say £10,000 for a project, and if your delegated authority was say £5k, and you could do the project with two contracts, one of £4k and the other of £6k, then you could sign off the £4k one yourself, but you would need to get authority for the £6k one from on-high.

I don't recall area S&T engineers having much admin support (just one secretary/typist), so I think outside contracts would have been dealt with at divisional or even regional level, although the area engineer may have been delegated to supervise the work - not sure if the same applied with other departments.

In the S&T there was definitely a list of approved suppliers, and there was a process that firms used to get put on that list. Ordering something from a firm that wasn't on the list was a major faff. I think jobs only had to be advertised if they were above a certain cost, and even then they would be advertised in specialist publications, not the local press! I seem to recollect that there was a special publication for advertising "government" work, that nationalised industries had to use?

Again, it likely very much depended on the cost of the project, and of each individual contract within that project. I very much doubt that any area engineer would have been allowed to give a contract direct to a preferred supplier without obtaining several quotes. Even to get removal costs paid, we had to get three quotes from separate removal companies (one of which had to be Pickford's, the preferred supplier). I recall that we had to report any gifts we received from outside suppliers.

So, the abandonment of the line would likely have been seen as a single project, with a cost authorised at the appropriate level. The work would then likely have been broken up into individual contracts, authorised and administered at the appropriate level depending on the size and cost of each contract. Maybe also with some work being done in-house, again administered at the appropriate level depending on resources and budget.

I recall that there were call-off contracts, which were used for regular work, to save having to go out for tender every time, but I doubt that they would be used for demolition work.

For recovery of rails and equipment with a decent scrap value, the contract would likely have specified a quick deadline to avoid the stuff being stolen. The contract would likely have included some allowance for the scrap value of the stuff being recovered.

 

[Andy873]

BR would prepare the estimates in-house. Authority for the job would depend on how much it was estimated to cost, the bigger the cost the higher up the organisation it would need to go for authority, and probably for tendering too.

So demolishing a single building might be dealt with by the local area engineer, dealing with a whole line might be up to the divisional or even regional engineer. It would also depend on how the work was divided up, if it was dealt with as one big job, or many small jobs.

As I recall, engineers would have a "delegated authority", the higher up the organisation the bigger your authority was. This was the amount that you were allowed to spend on a single purchase order, as distinct to your budget for each project and your annual budget. So you might have a budget for say £10,000 for a project, and if your delegated authority was say £5k, and you could do the project with two contracts, one of £4k and the other of £6k, then you could sign off the £4k one yourself, but you would need to get authority for the £6k one from on-high.

I don't recall area S&T engineers having much admin support (just one secretary/typist), so I think outside contracts would have been dealt with at divisional or even regional level, although the area engineer may have been delegated to supervise the work - not sure if the same applied with other departments.

In the S&T there was definitely a list of approved suppliers, and there was a process that firms used to get put on that list. Ordering something from a firm that wasn't on the list was a major faff. I think jobs only had to be advertised if they were above a certain cost, and even then they would be advertised in specialist publications, not the local press! I seem to recollect that there was a special publication for advertising "government" work, that nationalised industries had to use?

Again, it likely very much depended on the cost of the project, and of each individual contract within that project. I very much doubt that any area engineer would have been allowed to give a contract direct to a preferred supplier without obtaining several quotes. Even to get removal costs paid, we had to get three quotes from separate removal companies (one of which had to be Pickford's, the preferred supplier). I recall that we had to report any gifts we received from outside suppliers.

So, the abandonment of the line would likely have been seen as a single project, with a cost authorised at the appropriate level. The work would then likely have been broken up into individual contracts, authorised and administered at the appropriate level depending on the size and cost of each contract. Maybe also with some work being done in-house, again administered at the appropriate level depending on resources and budget.

I recall that there were call-off contracts, which were used for regular work, to save having to go out for tender every time, but I doubt that they would be used for demolition work.

For recovery of rails and equipment with a decent scrap value, the contract would likely have specified a quick deadline to avoid the stuff being stolen. The contract would likely have included some allowance for the scrap value of the stuff being recovered.

Thanks, that's a very interesting and informative reply!

The very best I could say about this branch line's demise is one none local contractor removed one bridge and a small amount of track and another station was demolished by a reasonably local company, and that's it. It remains to me a who done it mystery.

One thing that's been well covered some time ago on here was that a company undertaking demolition / dismantling of say a branch line would be usually unpopular with the locals along that line, so you wouldn't want to be too local.

Speed of track removal - On the Gt. Harwood loop line, nine track miles were taken up in five months (Oct '65 - Feb '66), that's 1.8 miles per month. They started next to Padiham station in the east, and finished at Gt. Harwood Junction, Blackburn in the west. I know some of the track was piled at one end of Blackburn station. The Up line was left in situ from Padiham station to mile post 7 at Norden near Rishton.

Does 1.8 miles per month for track removal sound slow, average or quick?