Lack of capacity on EMR regional services, such as Skegness and Liverpool-Norwich. What can be done?

[em81]

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I saw the EMR Liverpool to Norwich service pass through Stockport at around 16:55 today. 4 car 158 with standing passengers in every carriage. It's not ideal if you're getting on a regional train with luggage to find there's no seats, and even getting your suitcase along the carriage to the luggage rack isn't possible.

 

[Russel]

I saw the EMR Liverpool to Norwich service pass through Stockport at around 16:55 today. 4 car 158 with standing passengers in every carriage. It's not ideal if you're getting on a regional train with luggage to find there's no seats, and even getting your suitcase along the carriage to the luggage rack isn't possible.

Would that also be the same EMR that also runs 4 car 158s to Skegness during peak summer?

 

[em81]

Would that also be the same EMR that also runs 4 car 158s to Skegness during peak summer?

Most seaside services must be an awkward one for operators. Needing extra capacity but only when it's hot and sunny, and it's either the weekend or school holidays.

Probably Merseyrail have the best solution to that problem. Trains every 15 minutes to West Kirby, New Brighton and Southport. So even if a train is packed, the next one isn't too far behind. That only works because the seaside towns are so close to a big city.

Liverpool to Norwich does link a number of cities and large towns, so very similar to the XC services you mentioned. The only difference being the rolling stock and not serving Birmingham.

 

[Russel]

Most seaside services must be an awkward one for operators. Needing extra capacity but only when it's hot and sunny, and it's either the weekend or school holidays.

Probably Merseyrail have the best solution to that problem. Trains every 15 minutes to West Kirby, New Brighton and Southport. So even if a train is packed, the next one isn't too far behind. That only works because the seaside towns are so close to a big city.

Liverpool to Norwich does link a number of cities and large towns, so very similar to the XC services you mentioned. The only difference being the rolling stock and not serving Birmingham.

I agree, but the reality is, with the loss of the HST's, Skegness has seen a capacity decrease over the last couple of years, compared to previous summer peaks.

 

[The exile]

I agree, but the reality is, with the loss of the HST's, Skegness has seen a capacity decrease over the last couple of years, compared to previous summer peaks.

Indeed - the issue is that there is no longer the ability or desire to use commuter stock on such workings - for several reasons:
Availability - the stick is still needed on its home turf
Suitability - suburban emus aren’t going to get very far towards Skegess
Crew knowledge
Cost and bureaucracy

 

[Russel]

Indeed - the issue is that there is no longer the ability or desire to use commuter stock on such workings - for several reasons:
Availability - the stick is still needed on its home turf
Suitability - suburban emus aren’t going to get very far towards Skegess
Crew knowledge
Cost and bureaucracy

Yep agreed, I remember doing the Skegness HST one Saturday morning a few years ago and every seat was taken, people were standing and the power cars were full of luggage, now all of those people are crammed into 2 and 4 car Sprinters or Turbostars.

Also though, I feel we've developed a real can't do attitude over the last few years, not just the railways but widespread, we seem to put more effort into finding reasons why something isn't possible than is.

 

[The exile]

Yep agreed, I remember doing the Skegness HST one Saturday morning a few years ago and every seat was taken, people were standing and the power cars were full of luggage, now all of those people are crammed into 2 and 4 car Sprinters or Turbostars.

Also though, I feel we've developed a real can't do attitude over the last few years, not just the railways but widespread, we seem to put more effort into finding reasons why something isn't possible than is.

Every time the topic of there being insufficient stock to cover seasonal / event traffic comes up I wonder just how many days in the year some “go anywhere” stock would not find a use somewhere on the network. Obviously, it’s not as simple as that as it doesn’t resolve the issues of paths/ crew etc, but the multiplicity of incompatible stock - even just on regional /local services - is something that GBR would do well to address.

 

[Snow1964]

Every time the topic of there being insufficient stock to cover seasonal / event traffic comes up I wonder just how many days in the year some “go anywhere” stock would not find a use somewhere on the network. Obviously, it’s not as simple as that as it doesn’t resolve the issues of paths/ crew etc, but the multiplicity of incompatible stock - even just on regional /local services - is something that GBR would do well to address.

If I remember correctly, it was close to 120 days on GWR alone (Cheltenham festival, Bath Christmas markets, Henley regatta, Glastonbury, Rugby matches at Cardiff, air shows, balloon fiesta, Somerset carnivals, and lots more I have forgotten etc. Then add in all the beach weather days school holidays and summer weekends, and nearer 200 days.

I suspect a universal go anywhere stock across whole network, could probably fill 10 trains for 200-250 days a year. Putting that in perspective many commuter trains are only busy for a three hours a day Monday-Thursday 51 weeks a year (not Christmas-New Year) less 5 other bank holidays (so only 199 days a year which is less).

I realise 3 hours a day, 199 days a year seems to out rank the need for event and seasonal capacity, but is that because of the can't do extras attitude

 

[dk1]

Liverpool to Norwich does link a number of cities and large towns, so very similar to the XC services you mentioned. The only difference being the rolling stock and not serving Birmingham.

Some extremely healthy loadings witnessed on the eastern part of the route over the last few months or so. Not sure whether EMR are releasing more advance fares. Yesterdays 14:52 ex-Norwich was busy on departure with a 2-car 158 and today’s 11:52 was full & standing with a 3-car 170 before the connecting service from Yarmouth even arrived.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Some extremely healthy loadings witnessed on the eastern part of the route over the last few months or so. Not sure whether EMR are releasing more advance fares. Yesterdays 14:52 ex-Norwich was busy on departure with a 2-car 158 and today’s 11:52 was full & standing with a 3-car 170 before the connecting service from Yarmouth even arrived.

Too many regional services are too short for demand at the moment, but because of the not ordering diesel bi modes and waiting for battery policy, there's little chance of that changing for a while. EMR are particularly stock constrained across their network

 

[dk1]

Too many regional services are too short for demand at the moment, but because of the not ordering diesel bi modes and waiting for battery policy, there's little chance of that changing for a while. EMR are particularly stock constrained across their network

It can only get worse with constantly burgeoning passenger numbers. Only saving grace is the increased used of 3-car 170s east of Nottingham with each recent timetable change.

 

[saismee]

Some extremely healthy loadings witnessed on the eastern part of the route over the last few months or so. Not sure whether EMR are releasing more advance fares. Yesterdays 14:52 ex-Norwich was busy on departure with a 2-car 158 and today’s 11:52 was full & standing with a 3-car 170 before the connecting service from Yarmouth even arrived.

Every time I've used it it has been healthily loaded. Usually just outside peak hours though, so to be expected. I'm still shocked it isn't at least four coaches on the eastern part like how the Ipswich to Peterborough service is usually four.

 

[dk1]

Every time I've used it it has been healthily loaded. Usually just outside peak hours though, so to be expected. I'm still shocked it isn't at least four coaches on the eastern part like how the Ipswich to Peterborough service is usually four.

Remember though that the Ipswich has half the frequency.

 

[Snow1964]

Too many regional services are too short for demand at the moment, but because of the not ordering diesel bi modes and waiting for battery policy, there's little chance of that changing for a while. EMR are particularly stock constrained across their network

Various members have pointed out over last 2 or 3 years that Regional longer distance fleet is the one desperately short of trains. Those longer 3+ hour services that need 4+ coaches, but are not high speed expresses.

Really there hasn't been anything delivered for 34 years since 158, 159, 166.
Could argue newer 175, 185 or 197 are regional, but they have not spread to the struggling areas, and often work in less than 5 (ie 4+) vehicle formations.

As has been said many times a 5 or 6 car regional bimode order (ideally 2 or 3 years ago, but even ordered this year) would have allowed all sorts of fleet cascades to ease things until GBR fleets come online in 6-7 years.

As the crowding figures show (along with ORR quarterly usage figures), got to point where some areas are 10-20% above pre Covid, but growth hasn't been reflected in extra stock

 

[JonathanH]

Really there hasn't been anything delivered for 34 years since 158, 159, 166.
Could argue newer 175, 185 or 197 are regional, but they have not spread to the struggling areas, and often work in less than 5 (ie 4+) vehicle formations.

That isn't true though. The 158s and 159s have been concentrated on fewer routes in that time, as 170s, 175s, 196s, 197s and displacement from electrification has allowed that to happen. 34 years ago, 158s worked primarily in 2-car formations on alnost all their routes. Cascades have provided increased capacity.

 

[em81]

Too many regional services are too short for demand at the moment, but because of the not ordering diesel bi modes and waiting for battery policy, there's little chance of that changing for a while. EMR are particularly stock constrained across their network

Have the TfW Rail 158s got a new operator lined up?

 

[Snow1964]

Have the TfW Rail 158s got a new operator lined up?

Nothing announced. Been some speculation

All we know so far is that TfW extended the lease about year ago for upto 3 years, so if they have growth, they could keep them for a while. Potentially they might have option or first refusal for another extension.

So English operators would be daft to assume they will definitely (rather than maybe) available sometime in next couple of years

 

[em81]

Nothing announced. Been some speculation

All we know so far is that TfW extended the lease about year ago for upto 3 years, so if they have growth, they could keep them for a while. Potentially they might have option or first refusal for another extension.

So English operators would be daft to assume they will definitely (rather than maybe) available sometime in next couple of years

I suppose the most likely scanerio then is some loans from TfW if they end up sitting spare, especially to cover overhauls.

Even if the 158s are freed up I've heard Northern have a number of unreliable Sprinters (and 769s) that might not make it until 2030. The former Anglia 156s being the most noticeable example, and while they have new seats covers Northern don't seem to have attempted to remove the worn out carpets or fit USB chargers, to bring them in line with the other 156s.

As the TfW area covers a number of English lines, including some services that don't even go into Wales, it might benefit some of the Western English counties if TfW do have additional carriages.

 

[dk1]

Have the TfW Rail 158s got a new operator lined up?

Northern must be a contender to bolster the Northumberland Line.

 

[yorksrob]

Moderator note: Split from

New passenger numbers and Crowding figures published

Just been released by DfT, rail passenger numbers and crowding in major cities...

www.railforums.co.uk

I saw the EMR Liverpool to Norwich service pass through Stockport at around 16:55 today. 4 car 158 with standing passengers in every carriage. It's not ideal if you're getting on a regional train with luggage to find there's no seats, and even getting your suitcase along the carriage to the luggage rack isn't possible.

Manchester to Sheffield can get notoriously busy. Getting that extra express between the two would help to alleviate things.

 

[Failed Unit]

I didn‘t know EMR did advanced fares on the regional routes.

However I can’t see what they can realistically do here. Cleethorpes is easier make it hourly as per franchise commitment. Back in the old days of CT(which was an awful operator) -At least it could draft in the West Midlands 150/1 units which are not needed as the traffic into Birmingham wasn’t as large at the weekend.

Now we are in GBR there may be a chance of borrowing units from Leeds on a Saturday. Although I get the next challenge is a Northern 158 / 170 isn’t the same as an EMR version so the drivers will need retraining. Not much they can take from the Midlands anymore as no staff will understand them.

However hopefully GBR could help create a solution. EMR has suffered that it doesn’t really have the peak from Central did. The 810s may be a solution once they are all in service but my expectations are low. Cutting other regional services is no longer an option. Central did put 153s on pretty much everything in the summer, thankfully they are gone. They also reduced services like Lincoln - Peterborough but it has a reasonable demand itself

 

[dk1]

I didn‘t know EMR did advanced fares on the regional routes.

Yes there are some very favourable AP fares available. A quick look at a day in September offers a single from Norwich-Manchester for just £34 which drops to £22.60 with a railcard. No wonder the service is popular.

 

[Failed Unit]

We have seen many rumours in past. I don’t know what EMR are like for units if they all worked however I can name 2 services where they are saving units from the franchise let (Cleethorpes - Lincoln and Lincoln - Doncaster) - That said I don’t think Newark Castle - Lincoln was in the commitments.

If they could keep the units running if they could lengthen services.

The reform some of the 158s into 3 cars made sense so all Norwich - Liverpool were at least 3 car 158s, with Nottingham to Liverpool either 3 or 5 cards 158s with gangways. (Much better capacity then 170s). The reform had many threads on this forum but as we can see it didn’t happen. Skegness has issues with short platforms and no SDO on the 158s, or gangways on the 170s.

 

[dk1]

The reform some of the 158s into 3 cars made sense so all Norwich - Liverpool were at least 3 car 158s, with Nottingham to Liverpool either 3 or 5 cards 158s with gangways. (Much better capacity then 170s). The reform had many threads on this forum but as we can see it didn’t happen. Skegness has issues with short platforms and no SDO on the 158s, or gangways on the 170s.

The plan a couple or so years back was just as you say. Creating 3-car 158s which would be at the eastern end with the 2-car adding capacity north west of Nottingham and was a very good one in my opinion. Seems to have been abandoned now though.

 

[em81]

Manchester to Sheffield can get notoriously busy. Getting that extra express between the two would help to alleviate things.

Liverpool to Sheffield every 20 would be nice but I don't think the paths would be available. Half-hourly Liverpool to Sheffield, with an additional express via New Mills, alongside the existing stopper via New Mills might be possible, or alternatively extending the Hazel Grove service to Sheffield. However, it wouldn't create a nice clock face timetable.

 

[yorksrob]

Liverpool to Sheffield every 20 would be nice but I don't think the paths would be available. Half-hourly Liverpool to Sheffield, with an additional express via New Mills, alongside the existing stopper via New Mills might be possible, or alternatively extending the Hazel Grove service to Sheffield. However, it wouldn't create a nice clock face timetable.

Yes, Hazel Grove extension would make it easier for those visiting the Peak beauty spots (assuming it would stop intermediately).

I suppose that if we're primarily ramping up capacity between the two cities, a perfect 20 minute interval isn't so important.

 

[amahy]

Whatever happens with Liverpool to Norwich, a good start would be making sure that all services north-west of Nottingham are at least 4 coaches. Short forming to 2 or 3 coaches is far too common, and has been an almost daily problem since well before COVID!

 

[dk1]

Whatever happens with Liverpool to Norwich, a good start would be making sure that all services north-west of Nottingham are at least 4 coaches. Short forming to 2 or 3 coaches is far too common, and has been an almost daily problem since well before COVID!

Apart from obviously when there’s a shortage of units, that occurs when the route is in disruption mode. If services are trapped on either side then the ‘spare’ unit used for strengthening will be sent forward to save a complete cancellation which of course causes overcrowding but operationally it’s the sensible option.

 

[ChrisC]

Moderator note: Split from

New passenger numbers and Crowding figures published

Just been released by DfT, rail passenger numbers and crowding in major cities...

www.railforums.co.uk

I saw the EMR Liverpool to Norwich service pass through Stockport at around 16:55 today. 4 car 158 with standing passengers in every carriage. It's not ideal if you're getting on a regional train with luggage to find there's no seats, and even getting your suitcase along the carriage to the luggage rack isn't possible.

It could have been worse! On Monday 20th July you would have seen just a 2 car 158 on that train. I travelled on it earlier in the afternoon on its outward journey to Liverpool and passengers were standing from Nottingham and it was absolutely rammed between Sheffield and Manchester.

 

[amahy]

Apart from obviously when there’s a shortage of units, that occurs when the route is in disruption mode. If services are trapped on either side then the ‘spare’ unit used for strengthening will be sent forward to save a complete cancellation which of course causes overcrowding but operationally it’s the sensible option.

That must mean that on every day since about 2015, there's either been major disruption or a unit shortage! Not an ideal situation...