Veterans Railcard eligibility

[ruraltravel222]

Hi all,

I'm in the Army Reserve and would like to purchase a railcard to help with the costs of commuting to work.

According to the conditions of the HM Forces Railcard, this cannot be used for 'commuting' and is only for leisure purposes - the Veteran's Railcard however has no such condition about commuting.

I know the Veterans Railcard is *technically* for those who have served and left, and not currently serving, but as far as I can tell this is not a legally defined condition of obtaining the card - it's only that you have served one day in military service, which I have, and to submit some form of proof, military ID etc., which I have.

I know what I'm suggesting goes against the spirit of the Veterans Railcard, but is there anything stopping me from applying for one?

It seems ridiculous that I'm bound by a commuting condition on an HM Forces Railcard, whereas I could leave the Army Reserve tomorrow and take full advantage of a Veterans Railcard but no longer be serving my country.

 

[Coleridge]

The Conditions of Use of a Veterans Railcard state:

To be eligible to purchase this Railcard you must be a veteran who has served for at least one day in His Majesty’s UK Armed Forces (Regular or Reserve) or been a UK Merchant Mariner and seen duty on legally defined military operations.

If you're not a Veteran, you're not eligible for this railcard.

I could leave the Army Reserve tomorrow and take full advantage of a Veterans Railcard.

Only if you've seen duty on a legally defined military operation.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Only if you've seen duty on a legally defined military operation

That clause looks like its applied to the clause about Merchant Mariners, doesn't it?

 

[Coleridge]

That clause looks like its applied to the clause about Merchant Mariners, doesn't it?

Now you mention it, possibly. It's hard to say. A comma or two would be helpful. AI agrees with you.

But it's pretty clear that the OP can't hold a Veterans Railcard while still serving in the Army Reserve. The "loophole" he thinks he's found doesn't exist.

EDIT: And it appears that there is a £12 minimum fare between 04:30 and 09:59 on weekdays, which perhaps makes the railcard less useful than a season ticket for commuting.

 

[ruraltravel222]

Now you mention it, possibly. It's hard to say. A comma or two would be helpful. AI agrees with you.

But it's pretty clear that the OP can't hold a Veterans Railcard while still serving in the Army Reserve. The "loophole" he thinks he's found doesn't exist.

EDIT: And it appears that there is a £12 minimum fare between 04:30 and 09:59 on weekdays, which perhaps makes the railcard less useful than a season ticket for commuting.

The 'loophole' very much exists, there is nothing in the terms and conditions of the railcard that states that you must have left the services in order to obtain the card, only that you have served one day in military service, which I have done.

 

[cornishjohn]

But it's pretty clear that the OP can't hold a Veterans Railcard while still serving in the Army Reserve.

Is it? One of the accepted ID's for issue of the Veterans card is a MOD90, which is the ID for serving personnel... I dont know the answer to the OPs question though.

 

[Bishops]

you could always ask your employer if they do a salary sacrifice season ticket and this will stop you looking for loopholes.

 

[styles]

you could always ask your employer if they do a salary sacrifice season ticket and this will stop you looking for loopholes.

Didn't that go out of the window in 2017 following the Hammond budget? The employer would need to make up the taxes if so.

 

[ruraltravel222]

you could always ask your employer if they do a salary sacrifice season ticket and this will stop you looking for loopholes.

My employer does offer a season ticket loan, but unfortunately it isn't cost effective for how often I make rail journeys.

 

[TUC]

The non-commuting rule is a very curious one. How would anyone know what reason a person was travelling? Why have such a condition in this type of railcard? The morning peak time restrictions are usually regarded as sufficient to address commuting,

 

[AlterEgo]

The non-commuting rule is a very curious one. How would anyone know what reason a person was travelling?

Quite essy to prove if use is sustained, not easy on a one-off.

Why have such a condition in this type of railcard?

To prevent it from being used serially and to rinse discounts, no different to various types of staff pass.

 

[BigCj34]

Is it? One of the accepted ID's for issue of the Veterans card is a MOD90, which is the ID for serving personnel... I dont know the answer to the OPs question though.

This. A veteran would have their MOD90 cut at the corners. But there is nothing to say that a MOD90 must be visibly defaced, whether a MOD90 is defaced is not something that is checked upon application.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The 'loophole' very much exists, there is nothing in the terms and conditions of the railcard that states that you must have left the services in order to obtain the card, only that you have served one day in military service, which I have done.

Have a look back at what @Coleridge quoted in post #2 above, which I see is sourced from condition 4.1 at https://www.veterans-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/:

To be eligible to purchase this Railcard you must be a veteran who has served for at least one day in His Majesty’s UK Armed Forces (Regular or Reserve) or been a UK Merchant Mariner and seen duty on legally defined military operations.

(I've taken the liberty of italicising a particularly relevant word)

As far as I can see, 'veteran' isn't defined specifically, so I assume it takes its usual meaning - which I think is someone who previously was <edit> but no longer is </edit> in the armed services.

As the OP is still in the Army Reserve, I don't think they meet the 'veteran' condition.

 

[swt_passenger]

The non-commuting rule is a very curious one. How would anyone know what reason a person was travelling? Why have such a condition in this type of railcard? The morning peak time restrictions are usually regarded as sufficient to address commuting,

Many people in the full time armed forces who need to commute from home to duty daily get a contribution to their travel costs.

But I think the modern usage of ‘commute’, for example where people refer to themselves as ‘weekly commuters’ wouldn’t be included in that rule. A serviceman going to his family home every or most weekends, perhaps going Friday night returning Sunday evening wouldn’t be ‘commuting‘ in the traditional sense, so I can’t see why he wouldn’t be able to use his railcard on a Monday morning.

 

[Buzby]

Would I be correct in thinking that after 60, the Veteran’s Railcard offers no material benefits over the Senior Railcard?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Would I be correct in thinking that after 60, the Veteran’s Railcard offers no material benefits over the Senior Railcard?

It seems to allow people to go with you much as Two Together and Family Railcards do.

 

[Haywain]

Many people in the full time armed forces who need to commute from home to duty daily get a contribution to their travel costs.

Yes, to their place of (military) employment. Not, as in the OP's case, to a place of civil employment.

 

[BigCj34]

Have a look back at what @Coleridge quoted in post #2 above, which I see is sourced from condition 4.1 at https://www.veterans-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/:



(I've taken the liberty of italicising a particularly relevant word)

As far as I can see, 'veteran' isn't defined specifically, so I assume it takes its usual meaning - which I think is someone who previously was <edit> but no longer is </edit> in the armed services.

As the OP is still in the Army Reserve, I don't think

they meet the 'veteran' condition.

From the website...

Are you a Veteran?

You’ll be eligible for a Veterans Railcard providing you have served for at least one day or more in His Majesty’s UK Armed Forces (Regular or Reserve). UK Merchant Mariners who have seen duty on legally defined military operations are also eligible.

You can buy a Railcard from anywhere in the world, although we can only delivery plastic Railcards to addresses in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The Railcard can be used to get discounts on rail travel in England, Wales and Scotland.

The wording of what defines a veteran does not seem to rule out serving personnel, it just says you have had to have served at least a day. So what the railway are defining as a veteran might differ to being a veteran in the traditional sense.

I do know of people serving who have one and only showed their fully intact MOD90 as proof and it was accepted. If the railway are willing to accept intact MOD90 as proof and do not request proof of discharge from the services in addition, surely still serving is not an issue?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

From the website...



The wording of what defines a veteran does not seem to rule out serving personnel, it just says you have had to have served at least a day. So what the railway are defining as a veteran might differ to being a veteran in the traditional sense.

I do know of people serving who have one and only showed their fully intact MOD90 as proof and it was accepted. If the railway are willing to accept intact MOD90 as proof and do not request proof of discharge from the services in addition, surely still serving is not an issue?

Are we able to take a general statement on the website as being superior to what is spelt out as being 'Terms & Conditions'? It certainly doesn't help on the clarity of what the rule is, and I'd be interested in the view of someone who actually knows about (consumer?) contract law. Although in passing, I'd note that the quote from https://www.veterans-railcard.co.uk/are-you-eligible/ clarifies the point raised at the end of post #2 about whether

a veteran who has served for at least one day in His Majesty’s UK Armed Forces (Regular or Reserve)

needs to have

seen duty on legally defined military operations.

in favour of that restriction only applying to

a UK Merchant Mariner

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, to their place of (military) employment. Not, as in the OP's case, to a place of civil employment.

Yes I was answering that in the more general sense of a full time serviceman.

 

[BigCj34]

Are we able to take a general statement on the website as being superior to what is spelt out as being 'Terms & Conditions'? It certainly doesn't help on the clarity of what the rule is, and I'd be interested in the view of someone who actually knows about (consumer?) contract law. Although in passing, I'd note that the quote from https://www.veterans-railcard.co.uk/are-you-eligible/ clarifies the point raised at the end of post #2 about whether needs to have in favour of that restriction only applying to

Personally if it says that "you must be a veteran" and then defines a "veteran" as having "served for at least one day or more in His Majesty’s UK Armed Forces (Regular or Reserve)" as a general statement on the website then I would imagine someone in active service has a good case for applying.

I would be very curious if a member of the forces got prosecuted for using a Veteran's Railcard based on the wording on the website, as well as an intact and undestroyed MOD90 being accepted as proof of status.

I would imagine under consumer and contract law both the terms and conditions and the general wording would be taken into account. I am no expert though.

 

[AlterEgo]

Here's the rub. Go and ask your CO if applying for it meets the Army's core value of Integrity.

 

[TUC]

Yes, to their place of (military) employment. Not, as in the OP's case, to a place of civil employment.

Therefore, it brings us back why is there a commuting exclusion when for other railcards the peak time minimum fare requirement is considered to deal with that perfectly well?

 

[blimmo]

Therefore, it brings us back why is there a commuting exclusion when for other railcards the peak time minimum fare requirement is considered to deal with that perfectly well?

And, frankly, the minimum fare requirement doesn't deal with it at all. I know many people who use a 26-30 Railcard to commute.

 

[spyinthesky]

Here's the rub. Go and ask your CO if applying for it meets the Army's core value of Integrity.

There is also a Joint Services Publication (JSP) of which I can no longer remember the number of.
This governs the ins and outs of home to duty travel and allowances therof.
Duty to duty travel was always travel by rail warrant. Then there was a number of warrants that were permissible for leave travel.
Having held the Forces Railcard, its use was rarely needed apart from All line rover tickets.
As far as I can gather, if after leaving I obviously fit the veterans path for a railcard. If I then 12 months later join the Army reserve I would probably be entitled to both and some thrown in allowances for travel.
I can’t see any reason of not being allowed to use the Veterans card to commute.
Edit: when I left the service my MOD90 had to be handed in and proof for veterans railcard was my Certificate of Service.

 

[Railguy1]

That clause looks like its applied to the clause about Merchant Mariners, doesn't it?

It seems ambiguous to me and the clause can be a standalone phrase or indeed applied to only that part.

 

[spyinthesky]

From the RBL site

Railcards for the Armed Forces community - Eligibility & How to Apply | Royal British Legion

Owning a valid Railcard may help to reduce the cost of travel. Learn what are the discounted rail travel options for serving and retired armed forces members.

www.britishlegion.org.uk

Veterans Railcard​

For HM Armed Forces ex-service personnel and UK merchant Mariners who have seen duty on legally defined military operations

The ex-service is a key word for both imo

The JSP752 governs allowances for travel

 

[Bill57p9]

It seems to allow people to go with you much as Two Together and Family Railcards do.

It does indeed allow a companion, however the companion is a fixed named person (and their photo appears on the Railcard). It can't be anyone else. As far as I am aware, the Veterans Railcard is the only one with this condition: The Friends & Family Railcard has two cardholders, however either (or both) can travel and up to 3 other over 15s can travel discounted.

This does lead to a complication when buying tickets with a Veterans Railcard online: With 1 Railcard and 2 adults the discount may or may not apply to the second adult. I am yet to find a way to select this on a booking site.


For what it's worth, my letter of appointment was accepted as evidence. I was ordered to hand in my MoD90 and never given a discharge letter when I retired from the reserves.

 

[bcarmicle]

The proof of eligibility table given on https://www.veterans-railcard.co.uk/are-you-eligible/ indicates that the intent is that the "seen duty on legally defined military operations" only applies to Merchant Mariners, as it is one of the potential qualification routes.

As to the main question, given the point about Forces integrity and the fact that the Railcard website is ambiguous, it may be worth writing to the Railcard team and establishing if the intent is that it is only available to discharged personnel or if personnel under active duty qualify despite the railcard name. The latter is not impossible given the 16-25 Railcard is available to those much older.

 

[Hadders]

Therefore, it brings us back why is there a commuting exclusion when for other railcards the peak time minimum fare requirement is considered to deal with that perfectly well?

Because it provides some relief against commuting costs for young people at the start of their working lives when they will generally be earning less than later in their career.

Take Stevenage to London as an example:

Anytime Day Return £28.80
7 Day Season ticket £122.70

A 16-25 or 26-30 Railcard holder can travel for £19.15 per day with no need to part with a large sum of money up front for a season ticket.

This is an important feature of railcards for younger people that is often overlooked.