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Reopenings - the positive narrative the railway industry needs !

BayPaul

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I wouldn’t necessarily call it major but Metro West is doing precisely that - just at a rate that makes it easy to forget that it is a current project.
It also doesn't have the ambition to achieve London or even Manchester levels of frequency and coverage.

To get there, Portishead and the other branches need at least 4tph frequency, ideally 6tph. Bristol city centre needs more lines and stations, as Temple Meads is rather on the outskirts for most journeys, which probably means tram trains. Then more lines are needed into the other suburbs etc.

A real step change, which would clearly cost billions but would transform attitudes in the city, making it into a place like London where most people wouldn't consider driving.
 
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SynthD

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Better transport is.
Team Valley trading estate is 3km long, it’s bigger than Newcastle city centre. Stations placed regularly, so that a destination is at most ten minutes walk away, are for denser regions. People should do what people have done for over a century: use a bus or have a bike for their station-work journey. We can support that with multi-mode ticketing, secure bike racks. We can't give everyone everything they want. Ashington has failed the region for decades, as it closed in the 60s.
I think the lower hanging fruit is getting other medium to large cities up to the level of Birmingham/Manchester/Glasgow
The Northumberland line is a former freight only line. Targeting these would be cheaper, but not actually cheap. Cowley in Oxford is another example. At the very least, it admits where the space likely is, on existing lines not used by intercity services.
that's why for my mind 'reopenings' are rarely the right answer or something to shout about, as they tend to be little rural single track branch lines operated by 2 carriage sprinters every hour
This one isn't, it is more comparable to Portishead in that it's suburban. The 2tph frequency can rise later, but then that just makes it less of a big bang event. We could be as equally happy about a new build line that is 6tph from day one, as a freight line reopened with 2tph which rises to 6tph a few years later.
 

Zomboid

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The Northumberland line is a former freight only line. Targeting these would be cheaper, but not actually cheap. Cowley in Oxford is another example. At the very least, it admits where the space likely is, on existing lines not used by intercity services
As is Portishead to a large extent, and Okehampton for that matter. I suspect a full rebuild starting with a derelict trackbed wouldn't have got off the ground.
 

The exile

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To get there, Portishead and the other branches need at least 4tph frequency, ideally 6tph. Bristol city centre needs more lines and stations, as Temple Meads is rather on the outskirts for most journeys, which probably means tram trains. Then more lines are needed into the other suburbs etc.

A real step change, which would clearly cost billions but would transform attitudes in the city, making it into a place like London where most people wouldn't consider driving.
Portishead was in the planning long before the other suburban routes into Bristol got to 2tph. It would be interesting to know how the ridership figures on those improved services (ie facts, not projections) would have played out in the decision making. Faced with the dead hand of the Treasury, I suspect there would have been little change in the end result, but longer arguments!
 

yorksrob

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I think the lower hanging fruit is getting other medium to large cities up to the level of Birmingham/Manchester/Glasgow. Bristol and Leeds being the obvious targets for investment in new stations/infrastructure/services/ some sort of light rail.

Some smaller cities/ big towns on junctions where less used lines go through them could also follow the Exeter model.

Leeds could start by having its existing transport system running past Midnight.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'm finding this discussion really interesting. I think the point I most agree on is that cities are not great places for cars, and that a great aim should be to bring the modal share of other cities up towards London levels. As Bald Rick said, driving in Birmingham is easier than in London, but that doesn't mean that you couldn't attract people out of their cars with a significantly better public transport system. That probably means a lot of miles of tram tracks, maybe tram trains to better use existing heavy rail lines, better segregation of intercity and metro services, probably some kind of crossrail scheme etc. Very, very expensive, but would transform lives and invigorate cities, allowing swathes of busy streets to be pedestrianised.

Getting back to the question - that's why for my mind 'reopenings' are rarely the right answer or something to shout about, as they tend to be little rural single track branch lines operated by 2 carriage sprinters every hour. I wouldn't have thought that Okehampton has made a single household give up their car, as rural rail can never be flexible enough for that.

And yet again, everything isn't always about getting people to give up their cars. That is a good outcome, but public transport is as much, if not more about enabling people who might not have access to a car at a given time.
 

The exile

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And yet again, everything isn't always about getting people to give up their cars. That is a good outcome, but public transport is as much, if not more about enabling people who might not have access to a car at a given time.
Exactly - especially in less densely populated areas, where there tends to be less of a parking problem, reducing the perceived necessity of permanent access to a car (ie “needing” to have 2 or more in a household) would be a massive gain in itself as it is then the beginning of people changing their habits - provided, of course, that the public transport provision is reliable (both on a day to day basis and also in terms of being able to plan your life long-term about it being available).
 

The exile

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As could Bristol! And both could see improvements for their suburban rail on existing lines. Bris is doing this but slowly and not particularly ambitiously.
Plenty of night buses in Bristol, aren’t there? Not just urban ones either.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Andy Burnhams announcement today about increased evoled powers has this to say about local transport

Local leaders will gain greater control over the services that shape people’s lives, including housing, transport, skills, employment support and public services.

This includes powers to:

  • Bring rail and bus services under greater local control, helping introduce integrated ticketing and more reliable services.
  • Build more homes where they’re needed and unlock stalled development sites by giving local leaders stronger planning and regeneration powers and more devolved funding.
  • Give more control over large local transport schemes, trams and metros to Mayors by removing and streamlining Whitehall approvals.
  • Give mayors control over 16-19 funding and employment support, so young people can train for the jobs local employers need and people out of work can get tailored support back into employment.
  • Back local industries and innovative businesses, and attract investment, creating more well-paid jobs.
  • Where power is devolved, Whitehall resource will follow, giving devolved leaders the resources they need to drive change closer to home
Reforms will remove barriers that prevent locally led transport projects from going ahead, handing over new planning powers for mayors and give local areas greater flexibility over how funding is spent.

Under a new “local first” principle, ministers will be expected to justify why powers should remain in Whitehall rather than being devolved.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...me-tax-to-make-lives-better-in-every-postcode

Elsewhere its suggested the threshold will be £500m which would give potential for many schemes to get off the drawing board.
 

Dr Hoo

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Today’s announcement (made in Sheffield) sounded great in this evening’s news coverage, with Supertram extensions or West Yorkshire transit mentioned but then included possible Doncaster-Sheffield Airport re-opening! As for conventional heavy rail RRB-opening - not a whisper. Hmm.
 

The Ham

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That sounds like a big problem but I don't think it is really.

The vast majority (75%+) of short distance trips are already made by walking. If driving takes up only 20 to 25% of those short distance trips I don't think there's much scope to reduce it that much further. A good number of those will be unavoidable - carrying something heavy, doing the shopping, disability, infirmity etc.

The other big thing is that once you take into account the distance of trips, rather than the headline number, the problem disappears - less than 1 in 200 car-miles involve trips of under a mile. So even if you did somehow manage to get all those trips shifted to active modes you're not denting road traffic by any significant amount.

I didn't say it was a big issue, likewise I did say that there's cases where they are part of bigger journeys.

The point I was making was that it does highlight that there's mindset amongst a significant number of people that they leave their home and get in their car.

As even 80% of journeys of less than 800m is too high.

Also, it's worth noting that a 3 mile journey between two villages is less likely to cause capacity issues than a 500m drive within village.

The thing is, though, that those short trips tend by nature to be overwhelmingly in busy areas and are going to include the largest number of “avoidable journeys”.

Indeed.

Not sure about that. Given 75-80% of those journeys are already done by foot I would argue the reverse - most people only use a car for a short "avoidable" journey if it's NOT busy. If it is busy, you're not going to use the car for a short journey unless there's a good reason for it, or you really really don't like walking.

It would be interesting to see the actual stats but my hunch (based in part on my own car use) is that most of these short journeys tend to happen outside peak times in the suburbs.

I've seen people drive to get to school in the morning peak where home to the school gate is 500m.

"Oh, but their likely going to work"

Not in this case, as if we were a bit late we saw them returning home.

OTOH I have a neighbour who regularly drives under 800 yards to the pub (in a 600 bhp 4 litre RS7!) which is ridiculous on a number of levels. So it definitely does happen.

I suspect in our case us living on a hill has something to do with it.

It's not doing any harm to anyone else though (I don't believe him to be drink driving) so if he wants to that's up to him.

I can beat that, I know someone who drove less than 100m to pick a child up from school after voting, they moved from one car parking space to another in the same car park.

This is the same family (different family to the one above) who drive their kids to catch the school bus to save them a 500m walk.
 

Sonic1234

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This is the problem of there being a disconnect between paying for travel and the act of travel with driving, so most drivers price (short) journeys as zero.

On the other hand, there is a lot of economic activity and tax generated due to motorists not considering the costs of their journeys. Make these costs explicit, or having to pay a train or bus fare and they won't travel. High streets will suffer even more if you start trying to price drivers off the road.

Amazon drivers will drive across the street, rather than walk, and it's not because they are delivering a heavy package.
 

The Ham

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This is the problem of there being a disconnect between paying for travel and the act of travel with driving, so most drivers price (short) journeys as zero.

On the other hand, there is a lot of economic activity and tax generated due to motorists not considering the costs of their journeys. Make these costs explicit, or having to pay a train or bus fare and they won't travel. High streets will suffer even more if you start trying to price drivers off the road.

Amazon drivers will drive across the street, rather than walk, and it's not because they are delivering a heavy package.

Although there's evidence that typically those who walk or cycle can be more economically helpful to a high street than those who drive.

Very few people understand the total cost that they pay for car ownership in a year with the average being around £3,600 a year.

Even at half that rate, that's an average of around £5 a day.

If someone is doing 8,000 miles a year using a ICE they are likely spending over £1,100 in fuel.

It then doesn't take much to spend a further £700. Buy a £2,200 and run it for 4 years and sell it for £600 and that's £400, MOT is easily £60, insurance of £250 (although for most likely more).

That's already likely £1,800 or more.

That's without (say) £50 a year in parking and/or tolls and/or congestion charges (which could be spent over a fairly limited number of occasions), £70 a year (average) for tyres, £30 for bulbs, oil, screenwriter and other small value things. If brakes need doing or anything like that that can easily add more (even if you are doing it yourself and not accounting for your time).

As such it's easy for the costs to reach £2,550 a year (or £7 a day) and could mean that for some is actually better to catch the bus at £3 each way than drive.

That's still £1,000 below the average.

That also doesn't factor in the £20+ people may spend a month on gym membership when if they were being active as part of their day (walking more, cycling, etc) they may not need that.

For those who aren't paying £5+ a day, for a second car, it's easy to see how they could be able to spend more locally.

As for economic values, there's a big cost to society in being inactive and health issues from pollution (even if you want to ignore the environmental impacts cars have).

The reduction from the default speed in Wales from 30 to 20 saved more money to the government just in collision costs in the first year (actually it may have been as short as 4 to 6 months) than it cost to deliver - with that only considering that one factor and not any of the other benefits which may be delivered if people are more active.

It also has lead to Welsh car insurance prices being £50 a year lower (average cost).
 

Egg Centric

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This post should not be read as a response to @The Ham's post, which has a bunch of valid points (even if the 20mph stuff is dubious and based on essentially insurance company marketing materials, the basic thrust is correct)

Just thought I'd put in an absolutely crazy example showing how even a journey no one sane would consider driving might actually make sense and how hard it is for rail to compete on point to point journeys - I'm currently parked within Zone 1 (specifically below the Holiday Inn in Bloombsbury) because I needed to do a couple of recreational things before coming here that were only practical by car (no way on God's green earth would I drive into central London direct from County Durham if the only reason for me to be here was work).

A meeting I'm attending on Thursday has been moved to Watford.

It's actually looking that it's going to be quicker for me to drive from Zone 1 to the location in Watford (one of the business parks) than it is to take public transport. Despite both ends being within easy walking distance of stations.

That is wild. If a car is competitive in this journey against train, when isn't it?

Costs would be similar too. And only because of the congestion charge (and my hotel car park isn't that far within it) - without them the car would win easily.

Not decided which I'll do yet. The even silliest bit and worth thinking about is if I drive and I'm delayed then no one will care, if I take the train and am delayed then I'll get a lot of dirty looks...
 

SynthD

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That is wild. If a car is competitive in this journey against train, when isn't it?
That’s a highly unusual urban journey, as just over half of it is on a motorway. You’d see a similar situation with getting to Heathrow, using the M4.
 

The exile

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Also, it's worth noting that a 3 mile journey between two villages is less likely to cause capacity issues than a 500m drive within village.
Though of course many of those “inter-village” drives will also involve a short drive within one (or both) of those villages.
 

Magrar

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For a bike+train commuter, a journey like an affluent car owning Ashington suburb to a factory on the Team Valley, is at its cheapest and most convenient if you use the bike at both ends.

Not as quick as a car, but cheaper, and keeps you fit, active, and engaged with the world.

So to look at this crappy belching stock, with its paltry 2/4 bile spaces per half hourly journey, serving car parks with stations attached, you wonder if the people who designed this line, had had their eyes sealed shut for the last 20 years of public policy.

In this type of journey, where the newly opened railway could have had daily custom for years on end, taking a car off the congested roads, the train is the most stressful, most annoying leg. Just wow.

Happy that it exist? Sure. Shouting about it? Not on your nelly. Not this regular bike/car/bus/rail user.
 

Killingworth

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For a bike+train commuter, a journey like an affluent car owning Ashington suburb to a factory on the Team Valley, is at its cheapest and most convenient if you use the bike at both ends.

Not as quick as a car, but cheaper, and keeps you fit, active, and engaged with the world.

So to look at this crappy belching stock, with its paltry 2/4 bile spaces per half hourly journey, serving car parks with stations attached, you wonder if the people who designed this line, had had their eyes sealed shut for the last 20 years of public policy.

In this type of journey, where the newly opened railway could have had daily custom for years on end, taking a car off the congested roads, the train is the most stressful, most annoying leg. Just wow.

Happy that it exist? Sure. Shouting about it? Not on your nelly. Not this regular bike/car/bus/rail user.
I'm not sure how well Magrar is acquainted with the geography of the area or is attuned to how the vast majority of commuters there view cycling. Having grown up with the Tyneside 3rd rail electrics I have to agree that any diesel traction is dirtier than them. That said the 158s are streets ahead of the first generation DMUs that replaced the electrics before the Metro arrived. In the North generally we're rather jealous of all the electric traction so dominant in the London area - like Reading;)

Cycle stands are provided at all Northern stations but are lightly used. I see quite a few Bromptons being carried on. There seems to be excessive negativity here about the Class 158s that are supposed to only carry 2 bikes per train. In my experience on Northern trains most guards go out of their way to accommodate as many cycles as possible - on 195s, 150s and Pacers I've often seen at least 6 (158s not used on my usual route). Inevitably if 6 present to board an already crush loaded 2 car train they'll not all get on. I've witnessed that, but it's rare.

In my youth I cycled everywhere in the SE Northumberland area. Even with an e-bike I'd avoid those roads today, not just due to age. It's a fair point that roads have been greatly improved over the last 60 years, for motorists, but not for bikes. That's partly due to the increased size of competing vehicles and their vastly improved acceleration and braking leaving less safe space for cyclists.

The car has come to rule. All the new housing estates built since the 1930s have increasingly been designed around car ownership - and new industrial sites in similar fashion. One day the Ashington line will be electrified - maybe by 2040, and to Newbiggin-by-the-Sea. Local people are very happy to have what they now have, even if it is 158s. A bigger issue is having longer trains, particularly on Newcastle United match days!

(I recall my father once had to cycle from the Newcastle suburbs to work in Chester-le-Street during a bus strike - in the days when trains still had guards vans and when a rail enthusiast like him would have used a train if possible. Never again was his verdict.)
 

yorksrob

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So to look at this crappy belching stock, with its paltry 2/4 bile spaces per half hourly journey, serving car parks with stations attached, you wonder if the people who designed this line, had had their eyes sealed shut for the last 20 years of public policy.

In this type of journey, where the newly opened railway could have had daily custom for years on end, taking a car off the congested roads, the train is the most stressful, most annoying leg. Just wow.

Happy that it exist? Sure. Shouting about it? Not on your nelly. Not this regular bike/car/bus/rail user.

I'm not sure how well Magrar is acquainted with the geography of the area or is attuned to how the vast majority of commuters there view cycling. Having grown up with the Tyneside 3rd rail electrics I have to agree that any diesel traction is dirtier than them.

Nice to see an endorsement for the Tyneside EPB's. They also had extra large luggage vans, so plenty of room for bycicles.

I'm not sure I'd agree with @Magrar that sitting in a 158 is inherently stressful. Compared to trying to manage connections around much sparse services, half hourly with four carriage 158's is a very good service.
 

cle

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On Bristol - hopefully MetroWest can become some type of S-Bahn system if marketed and mapped well. Simple frequencies, route pairing and visuals.

Temple Meads - well it has always been there and recently much has grown around it. Bristol has also grown a lot, both city and also metro area, so having a journey to the central station is a sign of becoming a bigger city frankly. The more TOD around stations, the less that will matter.

And Parkway is/should be at the other end of local services, for faster London and Birmingham/North journeys. So it becomes the other end of the dumbell.

Eventually you'd want 4tph through Henbury (2 each way) and likely 6tph to Filton, 4tph Avonmouth, 2tph Portishead, 2tph Parkway/Yate and at least 2-4tph locals to Weston or Bath/Westbury to counter-balance and build the network. Seamless, mode-agnostic ticketing and transfers with buses and you've got yourself a system.
 

The exile

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On Bristol - hopefully MetroWest can become some type of S-Bahn system if marketed and mapped well. Simple frequencies, route pairing and visuals.

Temple Meads - well it has always been there and recently much has grown around it. Bristol has also grown a lot, both city and also metro area, so having a journey to the central station is a sign of becoming a bigger city frankly. The more TOD around stations, the less that will matter.

And Parkway is/should be at the other end of local services, for faster London and Birmingham/North journeys. So it becomes the other end of the dumbell.

Eventually you'd want 4tph through Henbury (2 each way) and likely 6tph to Filton, 4tph Avonmouth, 2tph Portishead, 2tph Parkway/Yate and at least 2-4tph locals to Weston or Bath/Westbury to counter-balance and build the network. Seamless, mode-agnostic ticketing and transfers with buses and you've got yourself a system.
Oh, and if the good people of the NorthEast don’t want their “belching diesels” we can provide a home for them on MetroWest - we’re not going to get anything else for the foreseeable!
 

cle

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Oh, and if the good people of the NorthEast don’t want their “belching diesels” we can provide a home for them on MetroWest - we’re not going to get anything else for the foreseeable!
Well to go full circle on the topic, the good people if Ashington etc seem very happy right now...
 

Bald Rick

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It's actually looking that it's going to be quicker for me to drive from Zone 1 to the location in Watford (one of the business parks) than it is to take public transport. Despite both ends being within easy walking distance of stations.

That is wild. If a car is competitive in this journey against train, when isn't it?

To be fair, the M1 south of Watford must be one of the emptiest urban motorways in the country, and heading northbound in the morning you will more or less have it to yourself. However, if the business park isnt one of those just the motorway at J5 / A41, then good luck getting through Watford in the morning,even if it is peak summer holiday (Hertfordshire roads are at their quietest this week).
 

Falcon1200

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For a bike+train commuter, a journey like an affluent car owning Ashington suburb to a factory on the Team Valley, is at its cheapest and most convenient if you use the bike at both ends.

More convenient than using your car from door to door, with no worries about the weather or having to tie in with train times?

So to look at this crappy belching stock, with its paltry 2/4 bile spaces

Never has a mistype been more appropriate, given your (misguided IMHO) view of Classes 156 and 158!

the newly opened railway could have had daily custom for years on end

So are the trains running empty? (They weren't when I travelled the route!)
 

Magrar

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More convenient than using your car from door to door, with no worries about the weather or having to tie in with train times?
People holding down proper jobs in places like the Team Valley do not let bad weather affect their daily lives.

The topic at hand is precisely whether this line can entice people to give up their cars, or be economically useful to those who cannot afford (or make the "lifetsyle choice" not to have one), something to shout about in this day and age.

It seemingly being lost on many here, that the main users of this newly opened line, bsing the already having it pretty easy, car owners. People who wouldn't hesitate to use the car for the whole journey, if stuff like a persistent all day delay to every single departure, as happened on my visit, made the train less convenient or indeed, more stressful.
 

The exile

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The topic at hand is precisely whether this line can entice people to give up their cars, or be economically useful to those who cannot afford (or make the "lifetsyle choice" not to have one), something to shout about in this day and age.

It seemingly being lost on many here, that the main users of this newly opened line, bsing the already having it pretty easy, car owners. People who wouldn't hesitate to use the car for the whole journey,
Enticing people to give up their cars entirely is always going to be a tall order anywhere but a densely populated urban area, which the area between Northumberland Park and Ashington is not. Enticing /enabling families to do without a second car and/or cut down peak use of any car is, however a massive “result” in itself as well being the next step towards “higher things”.
 

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