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EMR to introduce reduced Inter City service from Monday 20th July

JonathanH

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Indeed.

Last train from Sheffield to London on Saturday is at 1600. That's truly awful!
To be fair, the act of removing labour is designed to result in a poor level of service, or indeed no service. The cover arrangements are generally only able to supply one shift.

It does seem that EMR have found it possible to staff one train to each of Sheffield, Nottingham and Corby each hour for the nine hours that the trains are running.
 
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liamf656

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It does seem that EMR have found it possible to staff one train to each of Sheffield, Nottingham and Corby each hour for the nine hours that the trains are running.
Indeed, I believe it is near enough the same timetable as the previous RMT strikes in 2022/23
 

800001

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Dan Walker from Channel 5 has posted the following on X

Dear @EastMidRailway
I know it’s tough keeping things on time, especially when the weather is so hot. I know you are trying to keep passengers happy and, I have to say your staff are always courteous and apologetic but…

as someone who travels from Sheffield to London (and back) twice a week, it does seem strange that not a single train I have been on in the last 3 months has arrived on time.

About 1 in 5 have left on time but the last one that arrived when advertised was back in April.

Everyone is paying more for their tickets than ever before but the service never seems to improve.

Is it just EMR or is everyone facing the same issues?
 

duffield

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That should help improve the fleet reliability stats then...

A train that doesn't leave the depot doesn't fail.
You'd think they'd be able to get the "best" units out with this minimal service, but 1B22 0812 Nottingham to St Pancras International was cancelled - "This service was cancelled due to a problem at the depot (MU)."

I'm guessing the 0912 might have been a bit cosy...
 

JonathanH

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You'd think they'd be able to get the "best" units out with this minimal service, but 1B22 0812 Nottingham to St Pancras International was cancelled - "This service was cancelled due to a problem at the depot (MU)."
This diagram appears to have resumed at Derby for Sheffield (1032 from St Pancras) with 810012 but then lost a quarter of an hour at Chesterfield, and a late start southbound from Sheffield.

Today's strike restricted timetable still sees four 810s (810010/12/18/22) out even though the dispute is essentially about their continued operation, so the strike doesn't look to be having its desired effect in getting the 810s withdrawn from service. A bit of a surprise that today's reduced service has not been set up to only need 222s in service.

The RMT facebook posts say:
RMT East Midlands Railway picket line at St Pancras this morning after the company refused to withdraw faulty trains from service. At least three times in the last week the 810 fleet has failed and required a full reset which leaves the train with no active safety systems.

RMT East Midlands Railway picket line at Derby. EMR have been sending trains into service that are likely to fail and require a full reset which leaves the train with no active safety systems including loss of communications between train drivers, dispatchers and trackside.

A 360 failure at Bedford on 1Y13 0845 St Pancras International to Corby doesn't seem to have helped things.
 

Iskra

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I travelled on EMR Mainline today from Derby to Loughborough and Loughborough to Nottingham. Both were 810's which seemed to have Hitachi fitters on board. The Southbound working was full and standing, with a lot standing. I would say that I was very impressed with how EMR managed the crowding of this service (they seemed to have additional staff for this purpose) and by using the space effectively; the 810 managed to accommodate an awful lot of people. I was stood up by the toilet, but at least it didn't stink and the vestibule was at a reasonable temperature. On the way back North, I managed to get a seat easily and it was a nice ride. The 810's have a more premium feel to them than similar units.
 

Mugby

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This diagram appears to have resumed at Derby for Sheffield (1032 from St Pancras) with 810012 but then lost a quarter of an hour at Chesterfield, and a late start southbound from Sheffield.
I was at Derby station today and saw that deprture what should have been the 1032 from St Pancras, it left about 10 mins. late, to Sheffield.

It looked to be quite lightly loaded but the boards at Derby were showing 'First Class not available' Why would that be?
 

liamf656

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I was at Derby station today and saw that deprture what should have been the 1032 from St Pancras, it left about 10 mins. late, to Sheffield.

It looked to be quite lightly loaded but the boards at Derby were showing 'First Class not available' Why would that be?
First class hosts are also striking, so all trains on strike days are declassified
 

800001

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First class hosts are also striking, so all trains on strike days are declassified
What baffles me, if these trains are so unsafe due to all the faults, and the serious issues of doing a reset that RMT are striking over, is, why are ASLEF not also taking action, after all, the driver is in charge of the train and has to perform these 'unsafe' resets of the train.
 

LowLevel

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What baffles me, if these trains are so unsafe due to all the faults, and the serious issues of doing a reset that RMT are striking over, is, why are ASLEF not also taking action, after all, the driver is in charge of the train and has to perform these 'unsafe' resets of the train.
It seems straightforward to me that what needs to happen is that they need to take them away, robustly replace the faulty components, and in the mean time use something else. Why should the crews turn up to operate a train where the same bogs fail, the same doors systems fail and so on repeatedly with no assurances that the root cause has actually been sorted?

I suspect more or less this will be occurring shortly and not before time. These trains should be a really good watershed moment for the MML after years of 222s slowly degrading and instead they've been painful.
 

JonathanH

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It seems straightforward to me that what needs to happen is that they need to take them away, robustly replace the faulty components, and in the mean time use something else. Why should the crews turn up to operate a train where the same bogs fail, the same doors systems fail and so on repeatedly with no assurances that the root cause has actually been sorted?
Why aren't RMT and ASLEF members taking combined action to refuse to work 810s, instead of the RMT going it alone and not working on three Saturdays when 810s remain in use, yet working those trains the rest of the week? Your insight suggests that these trains should be taken out of use.

I suspect more or less this will be occurring shortly and not before time. These trains should be a really good watershed moment for the MML after years of 222s slowly degrading and instead they've been painful.
Is that a conclusion EMR and DfT are going to reach regardless of the industrial action?
 

Carlisle

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Why should the crews turn up to operate a train where the same bogs fail,
Take a trip on the West Coast Mainline & you’ll see plenty of toilets out of order on trains that have been in service for 20 plus years. :'(
 

STINT47

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If these trains are truly unsafe then shouldn't the unions be on all out continuous strike until the issues are fixed?

I'm not sure how they were so dangerous on Saturday that staff couldn't work them but today it's alright.
 

Iskra

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If these trains are truly unsafe then shouldn't the unions be on all out continuous strike until the issues are fixed?

I'm not sure how they were so dangerous on Saturday that staff couldn't work them but today it's alright.
I think there is a clear difference between something having safety issues and something being actively dangerous, although I suspect you are deliberately conflating the two positions to suit your agenda.
 

JonathanH

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I think there is a clear difference between something having safety issues and something being actively dangerous, although I suspect you are deliberately conflating the two positions to suit your agenda.
Not necessarily. The RMT say the dispute is about EMR not agreeing to take the trains out of service. I can see that a one day strike allows them to form a picket line, but it doesn't really address the underlying issue.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-strikes-over-safety-on-emr-to-go-ahead/
RMT general secretary Eddie Dempsey said that the sudden departure of the Managing Director of East Midlands Railway this week was yet another symptom of the sense of crisis surrounding the company.

“Despite numerous attempts to resolve the dispute through talks EMR will not remove the 810’s from service therefore the strikes will go ahead, and we remain available for further talks” he said.
 

Qwerty133

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If these trains are truly unsafe then shouldn't the unions be on all out continuous strike until the issues are fixed?

I'm not sure how they were so dangerous on Saturday that staff couldn't work them but today it's alright.
Factually there is nothing unsafe about a few bogs being out of use or internal doors having to be pinned open which are a good chunk of the failures. That is not to say that these issues are acceptable from a customer service point of view or that work shouldn’t be taking place to sort them. According to those in the industry it is also standard practice across a number of fleets for trains to be reset whilst in service as required and that this is not considered to have safety implications.
 

MCR247

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Factually there is nothing unsafe about a few bogs being out of use or internal doors having to be pinned open which are a good chunk of the failures. That is not to say that these issues are acceptable from a customer service point of view or that work shouldn’t be taking place to sort them. According to those in the industry it is also standard practice across a number of fleets for trains to be reset whilst in service as required and that this is not considered to have safety implications.
I don’t think it is necessarily as simple that. When doing a risk assessment, one of the considerations is how long/often something needs to be done for.
 

800001

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Factually there is nothing unsafe about a few bogs being out of use or internal doors having to be pinned open which are a good chunk of the failures. That is not to say that these issues are acceptable from a customer service point of view or that work shouldn’t be taking place to sort them. According to those in the industry it is also standard practice across a number of fleets for trains to be reset whilst in service as required and that this is not considered to have safety implications.
The same reset that is done day in and day out on all the other Hitachi fleets at Hull, Lumo, TPE, GWR and LNER.

I posted further up thread that RMT are focussing on the safety of the train during the reboots. So why are Aslef not kicking up the same fuss. After all the driver is in charge of the train and performs these allegedly unsafe reboots.
 
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Is there any idea off how long the reduced timetable will last, surely someone in EMR or Hitachi must have a plan.
 

JonathanH

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Is there any idea off how long the reduced timetable will last, surely someone in EMR or Hitachi must have a plan.
The cancellations are initially in the plan until the end of the first week in September, as far as the RTT feed implies.
 

Merle Haggard

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It seems straightforward to me that what needs to happen is that they need to take them away, robustly replace the faulty components, and in the mean time use something else. Why should the crews turn up to operate a train where the same bogs fail, the same doors systems fail and so on repeatedly with no assurances that the root cause has actually been sorted?

I suspect more or less this will be occurring shortly and not before time. These trains should be a really good watershed moment for the MML after years of 222s slowly degrading and instead they've been painful.

I'm sure that you're making a complete guess on this but ...
It's interesting that 6 222s have gone away so far (2220001-5 and 222104) and there's rumours of 6 221s coming over to EMR IC.
That would restore the fleet size in terms of 22x so in theory allow a full service to operate without operating any 810s. they could be sent back to Hitachi with the message 'we'll have them back when they work'.
 

duffield

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I'm sure that you're making a complete guess on this but ...
It's interesting that 6 222s have gone away so far (2220001-5 and 222104) and there's rumours of 6 221s coming over to EMR IC.
That would restore the fleet size in terms of 22x so in theory allow a full service to operate without operating any 810s. they could be sent back to Hitachi with the message 'we'll have them back when they work'.
Except that the 222 reliability seems to have dropped off a cliff recently, and there's still the question of when the Scotrail contract kicks it. My pssimistic view is that even if the 221s are in passenger service quickly they'll probably just stop things getting even worse rather than restore a full timetable.
 

edwin_m

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Except that the 222 reliability seems to have dropped off a cliff recently, and there's still the question of when the Scotrail contract kicks it. My pssimistic view is that even if the 221s are in passenger service quickly they'll probably just stop things getting even worse rather than restore a full timetable.
221s also have fewer seats than a 222, and they are a bit slower due to the extra weight of the tilting bogies.
 

Snow1964

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Except that the 222 reliability seems to have dropped off a cliff recently, and there's still the question of when the Scotrail contract kicks it.
The Scottish 222 announcement gave dates, first ones in service by end of 2027, all in service by end of 2028

Realistically, as it says all will be overhauled, refurbished and get some upgrades, I would think first ones would be heading to works at least 6 months earlier (around April 2026), then a phased withdrawal of about 2 per month from summer 2027 to summer 2028. My guess, not an official timeline


I tend to believe the 2.5 year plan dates in Scotrail announcement rather more than the July 2019 (yes, over 7 years ago) East Midlands Railway announcement of dates for their 165 new carriages, that are about 4 years late (or about 230% of duration indicated)

 

WesternLancer

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The Scottish 222 announcement gave dates, first ones in service by end of 2027, all in service by end of 2028

Realistically, as it says all will be overhauled, refurbished and get some upgrades, I would think first ones would be heading to works at least 6 months earlier (around April 2026), then a phased withdrawal of about 2 per month from summer 2027 to summer 2028. My guess, not an official timeline


I tend to believe the 2.5 year plan dates in Scotrail announcement rather more than the July 2019 (yes, over 7 years ago) East Midlands Railway announcement of dates for their 165 new carriages, that are about 4 years late (or about 230% of duration indicated)

I certainly won't be going to the bookmaker based on the formal announcements!
 

Bikeman78

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If we accept that shortening the 1902 is the least bad thing to do for their operaroonsl convenience, how about an easement to allow cheaper flexible rickets (say for London to Derby and beyond) to be used on one or two earlier, full length, trains and so avoid some of the overcrowding that they will otherwise create?
By contrast, GWR is quite good with this. Normally super off peak from Paddington are not valid after 1500. During the diversions via Chippenham, they were allowed on the 1512 to Swansea.
 

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