London to Brighton returns

[zsl11913]

I know this must have been discussed somewhere but just for some clarity:

a. Why are there two ticket types costing same amount of money...
and
b. The million pound question: Can I use either of them to/from Victoria? or even on Gatwick Express?

Thanking you

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The second one is a railcard discounted off peak day return ticket from Brighton to London Terminals (includes London Bridge and City Thameslink), but using Thameslink branded trains only. The first is a railcard discounted off peak day return from Brighton to London Thameslink stations (includes London Bridge and St. Pancras and a few others), but isn't valid on the Underground.

Moot point as to whether they are intended to be valid to London Victoria and/or on the Gatwick Express. I'd say they're not, but others on here may well disagree. It's a topic that's quite often discussed. Anyone have anything further to add to the above?

 

[MrJeeves]

Why are there two ticket types costing same amount of money...

One is a Thameslink Only ticket to London Terminals, and the other is a Not Underground ticket to London Thameslink.

Very straightforward, isn't it!

The million pound question: Can I use either of them to/from Victoria? or even on Gatwick Express?

Not to Victoria, except on one of the few Thameslink services that run to/from it late at night.

And no to Gatwick Express, unless you want to take the argument that it's all "Greater Thameslink Railway" and thus Gatwick Express is Thameslink. Or unless you want to use the Not Underground ticket only between Brighton and Gatwick or something!

 

[JB_B]

Not to Victoria, except on one of the few Thameslink services that run to/from it late at night.

Do any TL services run to/from Victoria in passenger service? ( I've only seen ECS. )

 

[Watershed]

Do any TL services run to/from Victoria in passenger service? ( I've only seen ECS. )

A few Victoria <-> Orpington/Sevenoaks services run in passenger service on Sunday mornings but otherwise it is only planned during engineering works.

 

[JB_B]

A few Victoria <-> Orpington/Sevenoaks services run in passenger service on Sunday mornings but otherwise it is only planned during engineering works.

Thanks - that's interesting.

 

[yorkie]

A London Terminals to Brighton route "Thameslink Only" ticket is legally / contractually valid on services operated by [Greater] Thameslink, which includes trains the company operates under the brand "Gatwick Express" (which, in my experience, are more likely to be formed of stock branded "Southern" than GX)

However, the gateline at platforms 13/14 (which most - but not all - GX branded services use) will almost certainly reject such tickets, and some of the staff who check tickets on these services (On Board Supervisors) may erroneously charge an excess fare. I believe the excess fare issued may sometimes be called a "Southern supplement" (!)

Anyone who is charged an excess or additional fare in these circumstances is entitled to claim the fare back, on the basis that it was unlawfully charged.

DfT/GTR know they are not entitled to do this, but have chosen to spend £millions of taxpayer money by arguing their case in the courts, rather than do the right thing and honour these tickets on all services.

 

[zsl11913]

Thank you all - my follow up question is, the 'not via Underground' option gave me a ticket as such - since it's London Thameslink rather than London Terminals, assuming I cannot use it to Victoria?

I am still not sure where or how I can buy a London Terminals ticket that is not at Southern price, or does it exist at all?

 

[yorkie]

Thank you all - my follow up question is, the 'not via Underground' option gave me a ticket as such - since it's London Thameslink rather than London Terminals, assuming I cannot use it to Victoria?

Not since @miklcct brought the validity of such tickets to the attention of GTR, thus resulting in a "negative easement":

Query on Southern S-Ticket

I have an annual Southern S-Ticket from London Thameslink to Three Bridges. Tonight, out of mild curiosity as I was at Victoria I scanned it to get the train expecting it to decline and it worked and opened the barrier. For the avoidance of doubt and not wanting to fare evade I also touched my...

www.railforums.co.uk

....However, @miklcct 's insistence on raising this to the TOCs' attention (despite being warned of the likely consequences) resulted in a negative easement being created, which now bars such routes...

...Is there a thread about raising this to the TOCs attention resulting in the easement? Would make fascinating reading!

Frustrating reading , more like!

Here it is:

Train station range covered by London Thameslink?

Hi, I am going to travel back to Brighton after traveling to the West Coast Main Line at London Euston. I was searching for tickets from London Euston to Brighton on trainsplit and found a ticket called "London Thameslink to Brighton" that is priced the same as the ticket from St Pancras to...

www.railforums.co.uk

...

I am still not sure where or how I can buy a London Terminals ticket that is not at Southern price, or does it exist at all?

I'm not sure what you mean by "at Southern price"?

If you mean with a route of "Southern Only", most of the fares with this route were withdrawn/harmonised, either when the GX franchise was absorbed into the expanded Southern franchise (2008) or at the formation/expansion of the replacement TSGN franchise (2014/15), from which date "Thameslink Only" fares became legally valid on all trains operated by the company.

Several "Thameslink Only" fares were also withdrawn, and fares harmonised (in a manner that was controversial, leading to the temporary "Redhill Hump" which took years to finally resolve by reducing the cost of the "Any Permitted" fares)

There shouldn't be any "Southern Only" or "Thameslink Only" fares, and indeed over 10 years ago, we were told the fares were being "harmonised", however although these fares have been retained on some flows, their continuing existence is in breach of the Ticketing Settlement Agreement (TSA), compliance with which is a condition of GTR's passenger license and franchise agreement.

While such fares exist, they are restricted to all the company's trains, rather than the specific brand name, regardless of the fact that some people at GTR erroneously claim otherwise, which has led to GTR/DfT having to pay £millions to defend their untenable position.

 

[800002]

While such fares exist, they are restricted to all the company's trains, rather than the specific brand name, regardless of the fact that some people at GTR erroneously claim otherwise, which has led to GTR/DfT having to pay £millions to defend their untenable position.

Could I have this in English please?

It's known, but not widely published (if at all, by themselves) that 'Thameslink Only' ticket from london to Brighton isnt, by matter of fact, restricted to Only Thameslink services, but any GTR operated service?

 

[dastocks]

Thank you all - my follow up question is, the 'not via Underground' option gave me a ticket as such - since it's London Thameslink rather than London Terminals, assuming I cannot use it to Victoria?

I am still not sure where or how I can buy a London Terminals ticket that is not at Southern price, or does it exist at all?

If you want genuine Brighton to London Terminals validity that works to any of the stations (i.e. routed Any-Permitted) it's expensive (GBP 27.10 with a railcard) - they tended to sell you a Zones 1-6 Travelcard because it was cheaper.

I sometimes use the Not London Underground flavoured BTN-THK tickets on GX services between Brighton/Hove and Gatwick. It's never been challenged but it's possible that's because it's never been checked...

 

[zsl11913]

Not since @miklcct brought the validity of such tickets to the attention of GTR, thus resulting in a "negative easement":

Query on Southern S-Ticket

I have an annual Southern S-Ticket from London Thameslink to Three Bridges. Tonight, out of mild curiosity as I was at Victoria I scanned it to get the train expecting it to decline and it worked and opened the barrier. For the avoidance of doubt and not wanting to fare evade I also touched my...

www.railforums.co.uk

I'm not sure what you mean by "at Southern price"?

If you mean with a route of "Southern Only", most of the fares with this route were withdrawn/harmonised, either when the GX franchise was absorbed into the expanded Southern franchise (2008) or at the formation/expansion of the replacement TSGN franchise (2014/15), from which date "Thameslink Only" fares became legally valid on all trains operated by the company.

Several "Thameslink Only" fares were also withdrawn, and fares harmonised (in a manner that was controversial, leading to the temporary "Redhill Hump" which took years to finally resolve by reducing the cost of the "Any Permitted" fares)

If you want genuine Brighton to London Terminals validity that works to any of the stations (i.e. routed Any-Permitted) it's expensive (GBP 27.10 with a railcard) - they tended to sell you a Zones 1-6 Travelcard because it was cheaper.

I sometimes use the Not London Underground flavoured BTN-THK tickets on GX services between Brighton/Hove and Gatwick. It's never been challenged but it's possible that's because it's never been checked...

thank you both - seems the best way at the moment off-peak is to use Oyster to East Croydon and then use the London Thameslink ticket? With Railcard (and Railcard discount on my Oyster), it's cheaper than buying a Any Permitted ticket from Victoria.

 

[yorkie]

Does your overall journey start at Victoria itself?

 

[zsl11913]

Does your overall journey start at Victoria itself?

It's usually Earlsfield

 

[redreni]

I sometimes use the Not London Underground flavoured BTN-THK tickets on GX services between Brighton/Hove and Gatwick. It's never been challenged but it's possible that's because it's never been checked...

I got challenged by a member of staff at Lewes gateline with one of those tickets, but a colleague explained to him that there's no TOC restriction on that ticket. It is valid on permitted routes to and from any of the stations in the London Thameslink station group (Elephant and Castle, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon and St Pancras). I was going to London Bridge via a change at East Croydon.

Some staff just see the word Thameslink and read 'Thameslink Only'. Not that 'Thameslink Only' is ultimately enforceable anyway, as Yorkie mentioned upthread.

 

[318266]

Could I have this in English please?

It's known, but not widely published (if at all, by themselves) that 'Thameslink Only' ticket from london to Brighton isnt, by matter of fact, restricted to Only Thameslink services, but any GTR operated service?

There is a long standing unsettled legal argument that operators cannot set fares only valid on their own sub-brands, i.e. GTR cannot set fares valid only on Thameslink, only on Southern or only on Gatwick Express. Therefore, these tickets (especially those routed Thameslink Only, given the operator was formerly Govia Thameslink Railway, and is now (apparently?) Greater Thameslink Railway) can be taken to be valid on all GTR services.

This argument is, unsurprisingly, not presently accepted by GTR and the Department for Transport. If you are itching for a fight over a few quid, then try as you wish at your own risk, given all the obvious risks that occur with fare evasion.