Manchester area steam sheds

[thesignalman]

In another thread I was corrected that it was more likely for Patricroft locos to work Manchester to North Wales services than Newton Heath. In my ignorance, I expected the large allocation at Newton Heath to work all things Manchester Victoria (its the only shed in the area I knew a miniscule thing about).

I've spent a while thinking about this, am I correct then to say that NH tended to work traffic out of Manchester Victoria to the east and Patricroft to the west? Patricroft was on the former LNW, so it makes sense for it to work North Wales services, but not so far away was Agecroft on the former L&Y. Again in ignorance, I always regarded this as a shed serving mostly freight traffic but I notice it did have a small allocation of Jubilees in the 50s and 60s, at least. So was Agecroft responsible for passenger workings out towards Bolton, and maybe workings like Manchester to Glasgow. Or, if not, what shed did work such trains? I have read that a Friday working from Glasgow was (amazingly) a Clan job, but whether from Polmadia or Kingmoor I couldn't say. But some were worked from the Manchester end, presumably.

Alas, although I do have memories of the types of engines I saw both along the North Wales coast and over Shap and Ais Gill, being young(ish) I wasn't sharp enough to have an interest in shed allocations.

John
Clearly an old codger!

 

[47296lastduff]

I think Agecroft was mainly/entirely goods work.

Patricroft did North Wales and Liverpool from Man Exchange (not Vic), also things like the portion to Wigan for the overnight Liv to Glasgow..

 

[6Gman]

The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway and the London North Western Railway may have amalgamated in 1922 but the distinction remained for decades afterwards.

Patricroft (ex LNWR) and Newton Heath (ex L&YR) traincrew would have had very different route knowledge and traction knowledge* and there would have been significant costs in changing this. There would also have been union reps at both depots kicking up a fuss if any work moved from their depot.


* Traction knowledge wasn't recognised in the same way back then, but - nonetheless - L&Y drivers tended to be terrified of Super Ds and LNW drivers had no time for the Fowler version (widely used by ex-L&Y depots).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2026 ==

So was Agecroft responsible for passenger workings out towards Bolton, and maybe workings like Manchester to Glasgow. Or, if not, what shed did work such trains? I have read that a Friday working from Glasgow was (amazingly) a Clan job, but whether from Polmadia or Kingmoor I couldn't say. But some were worked from the Manchester end, presumably.

The Manchester-Glasgow services were worked by Polmadie and Newton Heath using Jubilees.

When the Clans were introduced they were allocated to Polmadie to work the Manchester services but were not up to the job and were replaced by Britannias (the "Firth of" batch).

As an example in 1953 the 1615 ex-Mcr was Newton Heath loco 1 (a Jubilee), enginemen 200 (MWF) 202 (TuThS) to Glasgow. The loco then went to Polmadie with a Scottish crew; the traincrew lodged overnight and worked the following day's 1050 ex-Glasgow, arriving Manchester at 1625 as turns 201 or 203.

It would be viewed as an elite turn, well-paid and NO WAY would they let any other depot near the job!

 

[Taunton]

and LNW drivers had no time for the Fowler version (widely used by ex-L&Y depots).

Nor did LMS Chairman Sir Josiah Stamp. It was the uselessness of these, following the considerable capital investment in a very large number of them, and constant reports of difficulties, which drove him to tell Sir Henry Fowler, knighthood or not, to retire, and to get the services of Stanier from the GWR. It was more a man management and team policy change that was needed.

The line hauls on the ex-LNWR were much longer than on the ex-L&Y, where the poor aspects of the locos came to the fore with overheating.

 

[Merle Haggard]

T/snip

* Traction knowledge wasn't recognised in the same way back then, but - nonetheless - L&Y drivers tended to be terrified of Super Ds and LNW drivers had no time for the Fowler version (widely used by ex-L&Y depots).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2026 ==


/snip

The Fowler 0-8-0s were allocated new to LNWR (and Midland) sheds.
Some replaced the last ex LNWR 0-8-s and 2-8-0s that were still running as compounds, and presumably to reduce double heading on the ex MR route. What then seemed to happen is they were sent to the L&Y and replaced that company's 0-8-0s.
All very curious; some of the ex L&Y 0-8-0s sent for scrap had only been rebuilt with larger boilers a few years before (4 years was the shortest, I think) But the ones that survived lasted into B.R. days including one or two still with small boilers.
It's not clear whether the Fowler 0-8-0s went to the L&Y to replace the indigenous 0-8-0s, or whether it was felt that on the comparatively short runs across the Pennines were less likely to run hot and exhibit their other design defects than on longer distance runs..
Considering that the LMS Fowler 0-8-0s were Derby's idea of improvement over the LNWR ones it was interesting that, when large numbers of secondhand 'WD' 2-8-0s and ex WD Stanier 8Fs were available the main class chosen for replacement was the Fowler ones - which were almost wiped out - rather than the LNWR ones.

Getting back to Patricroft shed; it consisted of two buildings at right angles which could be a trap for the shed basher ....

Patricroft became home to many of the BR Standard 5s with Caprotti valve gear, but no Caprotti Stanier 5s.

 

[Taunton]

Given that the LNER had moved on to 2-8-0s for line haul heavy freight, and the GWR had never had time for 0-8-0s in the first place, having designed their first 2-8-0 as soon as Churchward sat down at the chief's desk, it was bizarre that the LMS went for old fashioned locos for line haulage without a leading truck.

 

[thesignalman]

I think Agecroft was mainly/entirely goods work.

Patricroft did North Wales and Liverpool from Man Exchange (not Vic), also things like the portion to Wigan for the overnight Liv to Glasgow..

Thanks.

Agecroft had an allocation of around eight Jubilees in 1962. Surely these would not have been solely for freight work?

The Manchester-Glasgow services were worked by Polmadie and Newton Heath using Jubilees.

When the Clans were introduced they were allocated to Polmadie to work the Manchester services but were not up to the job and were replaced by Britannias (the "Firth of" batch).

As an example in 1953 the 1615 ex-Mcr was Newton Heath loco 1 (a Jubilee), enginemen 200 (MWF) 202 (TuThS) to Glasgow. The loco then went to Polmadie with a Scottish crew; the traincrew lodged overnight and worked the following day's 1050 ex-Glasgow, arriving Manchester at 1625 as turns 201 or 203.

It would be viewed as an elite turn, well-paid and NO WAY would they let any other depot near the job!

Interesting - thanks. So Newton Heath was not solely involved with work to the east of Manchester.

A lot of myths surround the Clans - whilst it is evident they were unpopular, the reason isn't clear. Certainly they should have easily coped with any work that Jubilees did. The Friday diagram I mentioned was early 1960s, presumably it worked back on a Saturday Only working.

I'm not sure I can fathom out your reference to replacement of Clans by Britannias. 66A had Britannias from 1954, including 70051 to 54. The Clans were there from 1959 to 1962 (except 72000/2 which were there from 1958 to 1959). I expect the usage was less simple than one can deduce from simple allocaton lists.

(Allocations from brdatabase.info)

That diagram certainly sounds interesting! So they worked right through.

John

 

[Merle Haggard]

Given that the LNER had moved on to 2-8-0s for line haul heavy freight, and the GWR had never had time for 0-8-0s in the first place, having designed their first 2-8-0 as soon as Churchward sat down at the chief's desk, it was bizarre that the LMS went for old fashioned locos for line haulage without a leading truck.

You must bear in mind that the Midland Railway called their 0-6-0 the 'Big Goods', and the LMS was then the Larger Midland Railway.
Consideration was given in early LMS days to building more (Derby - designed) S&DJ 2-8-0s. They were pitted against the LNWR 0-8-0 on trials but, disappointingly for Derby, proved inferior. Even when they took such steps as polishing their valves and other fine-tuning on the Derby contender they still were inferior. So they stretched their 0-6-0 instead.
The LNWR had a number of RoD 2-8-0s but these were soon disposed of by the LMS. To the East, however, RoD 2-8-0s lasted to the end of steam on the Eastern Region.

 

[6Gman]

I'm not sure I can fathom out your reference to replacement of Clans by Britannias. 66A had Britannias from 1954, including 70051 to 54. The Clans were there from 1959 to 1962 (except 72000/2 which were there from 1958 to 1959). I expect the usage was less simple than one can deduce from simple allocaton lists.

(Allocations from brdatabase.info)

Pretty sure Polmadie had Clans earlier than 1958. I believe that the 1955 split was Polmadie 5 and Kingmoor 5. According to Xpress Publishing's book on WCML carriage workings "it was the delays caused [to a Euston-Glasgow service running behind a Mcr-Glasgow service] that contributed to the replacement of the ineffective and poor steaming Clan 4-6-2s ... by a new batch of Polmadie-based Britannias in 1955".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2026 ==

Interesting - thanks. So Newton Heath was not solely involved with work to the east of Manchester.

It's best not to think of it in terms of eastbound or westbound, but in terms of Victoria (L&Y) and Exchange (LNWR).

Trains from Victoria were worked by Newton Heath and other ex-L&Y sheds (e.g. Bank Hall, Southport, Blackpool, Bolton, Low Moor) while Exchange was the haunt of ex-LNW sheds (e.g. Chester, Edge Hill, Farnley Junction).

Naturally there were some exceptions. For example, I think one Manchester-Glasgow ran from Exchange and via Parkside for platform and line occupancy reasons but was worked by Newton Heath. And there were some weird engine workings (the LMS & LMR had a taste for multi-day loco diagrams) including in 1953 one of the Victoria daytime shunt and banking engines (crewed by Newton Heath) was a Perth loco!

 

[Harvester]

Polmadie had 5 Clans (72000-72004) from new in early 1952, until they were withdrawn in December 1962. Some did have short loan spells at Haymarket and St Margarets during that time, although I am unsure why. Looking at published photographs of Clans climbing Shap I could only find examples of the Polmadie locos at work, and they were being used into the 1960s on some through Glasgow-Manchester workings. Two of the Brits 70053/54 were transferred away from Polmadie in October 1958 thus reducing it’s stud to three.

 

[52290]

Polmadie had 5 Clans (72000-72004) from new in early 1952, until they were withdrawn in December 1962. Some did have short loan spells at Haymarket and St Margarets during that time, although I am unsure why. Looking at published photographs of Clans climbing Shap I could only find examples of the Polmadie locos at work, and they were being used into the 1960s on some through Glasgow-Manchester workings. Two of the Brits 70053/54 were transferred away from Polmadie in October 1958 thus reducing it’s stud to three.

As a spotter in Leyland in the 1950's I used to often cycle up to Midge Hall at around 7pm to see the Liverpool portion of a train from Glasgow which was regularly hauled by a loco from Kingmoor shed, normally a Clan or a Jubilee.
My 1958 Locoshed Book shows Clans 72000 and 72002 at Haymarket. I don't think they lasted long there.

 

[thesignalman]

[snipped]
It's best not to think of it in terms of eastbound or westbound, but in terms of Victoria (L&Y) and Exchange (LNWR).

Trains from Victoria were worked by Newton Heath and other ex-L&Y sheds (e.g. Bank Hall, Southport, Blackpool, Bolton, Low Moor) while Exchange was the haunt of ex-LNW sheds (e.g. Chester, Edge Hill, Farnley Junction).

Very sensible point - I should have thought of that in the first place! Thanks for clarifying.

John

 

[6Gman]

Very sensible point - I should have thought of that in the first place! Thanks for clarifying.

John

You raised an interesting point and gave me an excuse (not that I ever need an excuse!) to look through various copies I have of the loco and traincrew diagrams.

Unfortunately I don't have any Agecroft diagrams but I can confirm that Agecroft men (but not necessarily locos) had some passenger work.

 

[Harvester]

My 1958 Locoshed Book shows Clans 72000 and 72002 at Haymarket. I don't think they lasted long there.

About six months. 72000 (Oct 57-April 58), and 72002 (Oct 57-April 58).

 

[52290]

The Fowler 0-8-0s were allocated new to LNWR (and Midland) sheds.
Some replaced the last ex LNWR 0-8-s and 2-8-0s that were still running as compounds, and presumably to reduce double heading on the ex MR route. What then seemed to happen is they were sent to the L&Y and replaced that company's 0-8-0s.
All very curious; some of the ex L&Y 0-8-0s sent for scrap had only been rebuilt with larger boilers a few years before (4 years was the shortest, I think) But the ones that survived lasted into B.R. days including one or two still with small boilers.
It's not clear whether the Fowler 0-8-0s went to the L&Y to replace the indigenous 0-8-0s, or whether it was felt that on the comparatively short runs across the Pennines were less likely to run hot and exhibit their other design defects than on longer distance runs..
Considering that the LMS Fowler 0-8-0s were Derby's idea of improvement over the LNWR ones it was interesting that, when large numbers of secondhand 'WD' 2-8-0s and ex WD Stanier 8Fs were available the main class chosen for replacement was the Fowler ones - which were almost wiped out - rather than the LNWR ones.

The Fowler 0-8-0's spent their last days at sheds such as Bolton, Agecroft, Aintree and Wigan (L & Y) on pick-up freights. They were known to us spotters as Clonks, due to the sound they made.

 

[Taunton]

Clans were apparently a regular sight at Liverpool Exchange, on trains from Glasgow.

It's best not to think of it in terms of eastbound or westbound, but in terms of Victoria (L&Y) and Exchange (LNWR).

The distinction did seem to last for a long time. a magazine article around 1960 about traffic through Mirfield, another line shared equally by the two former constituents, had the signal staff still describing trains as "Wessy" or "Lanky", depending on whether they were Huddersfield to Leeds, or Calder Valley to Wakefield, etc, including by booking lads doubtless only recently recruited, 40 years and several administrations after being joined.

 

[thesignalman]

[snip]

The distinction did seem to last for a long time. a magazine article around 1960 about traffic through Mirfield, another line shared equally by the two former constituents, had the signal staff still describing trains as "Wessy" or "Lanky", depending on whether they were Huddersfield to Leeds, or Calder Valley to Wakefield, etc, including by booking lads doubtless only recently recruited, 40 years and several administrations after being joined.

Old habits die hard. When I started in the signal box at Kings Cross in 1970 (as a telegraph lad) the men there were very emphatic they were "Northern" men and had no respect for the "Eastern" men, or "Swedey Bashers" as they often rudely called them. They had been working for the same employer since 1923 . . .

I suppose when privatisation came along a lot of the old tradition died off, but traincrew-wise a lot of the principles from the old days just stayed as they were (I discovered this when I switched into scheduling and diagramming) - after all why change something that works well?

John

 

[Rescars]

Old habits die hard. When I started in the signal box at Kings Cross in 1970 (as a telegraph lad) the men there were very emphatic they were "Northern" men and had no respect for the "Eastern" men, or "Swedey Bashers" as they often rudely called them. They had been working for the same employer since 1923 . . .

I suppose when privatisation came along a lot of the old tradition died off, but traincrew-wise a lot of the principles from the old days just stayed as they were (I discovered this when I switched into scheduling and diagramming) - after all why change something that works well?

John

There seem to be many similar anecdotes regarding ex LMS and LNER territories. To what extent did similar things happen on the Southern?

 

[Bevan Price]

The LMS Fowler 0-8-0s were potentially good locos, but the "Derby" influence was obsessed with standardisation, and insisted they were fitted with bearings like those used on Midland 2F and 3F 0-6-0s -- totallly inadequate for larger locos, and the cause of many failures. The availability of ex-WD 2-8-0s enabled the early demise of most of the Fowler 0-8-0s.

As for loco depots, both Agecroft & Newton Heath had passenger duties on former L&YR lines - and that included the ER Class B1 4-6-0s that spent some time at Agecroft in the 1960s. . Also depots commonly "borrowed" locos from elsewhere that had arrived in their area. In addition, locos arriving in Manchester from elsewhere often had diagrams that returned them to their home depots. So Manchester Victoria would see locos from depots such as Bank Hall (Liverpool), Blackpool, Southport, Wigan L&Y, Lostock Hall, Bolton, Accrington, Low Moor & Wakefield.