Why should I trust rail travel?

[stuu]

Well I had quite a variety of jobs over my working life, and I can honestly say I was pretty enthusiastic about every single one of them.

I have a lifelong enthusiasm for railways, and I still believe that they could and should serve the public well. I struggle to see why staff and management in the rail industry should regard their jobs as a chore, however a good many seem to, perhaps yourself included?

Do you ever think that maybe being so judgemental might influence how people treat you?

 

[Shrop]

Do you ever think that maybe being so judgemental might influence how people treat you?

No offence intended, it was a question, not a judgement about you.

It just sounded like you thought that people having enthusiasm for their work wasn't all that common. Apologies if I misunderstood.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

No offence intended, it was a question, not a judgement about you.

It just sounded like you thought that people having enthusiasm for their work wasn't all that common. Apologies if I misunderstood.

Lots of people do indeed have enthusiasm for their work. But given the attitudes of so many directors/senior managers towards their workforce and the lack of incentives such as overtime premia most people do absolutely expect to go home at their scheduled finish time, especially in jobs, as on the railway, where there is huge variation in start and finish times causing all sorts of compromises to be made in their private lives. The days of employees being "company servants" (effectively paid slaves) are not only long gone, they're not coming back.

 

[Falcon1200]

The sad conclusion I'm drawing here, is that almost no-one on the supply side of the rail industry, is particularly interested in providing a decent rail service.

Many, if not most staff, and similarly in rail management, are only there to earn a wage by being present during their contracted hours, they care little about passenger/customer service.

Clearly you have had bad experiences on the railway, where staff could without doubt have done better, but I am very disappointed by your view of railway staff. It does not tally at all with my 38 years on the railway, most of which was in Operations Control dealing directly with service disruption. The people I worked with were dedicated to managing incidents as effectively as possible, had years of experience and knowledge doing this, and were quick to make decisions, not always necessarily popular ones (eg the ongoing 'running express' debate) but always with the aim of restoring the service as possible and therefore disrupting the journeys of the least number of passengers. We did not always get it right, sometimes because details were not known, sometimes because circumstances changed during an incident; Or sometimes because the decision was the wrong one in the first place. But we tried.....

 

[Shrop]

Clearly you have had bad experiences on the railway, where staff could without doubt have done better, but I am very disappointed by your view of railway staff. It does not tally at all with my 38 years on the railway, most of which was in Operations Control dealing directly with service disruption. The people I worked with were dedicated to managing incidents as effectively as possible, had years of experience and knowledge doing this, and were quick to make decisions, not always necessarily popular ones (eg the ongoing 'running express' debate) but always with the aim of restoring the service as possible and therefore disrupting the journeys of the least number of passengers. We did not always get it right, sometimes because details were not known, sometimes because circumstances changed during an incident; Or sometimes because the decision was the wrong one in the first place. But we tried.....

Absolutely. I completely agree with you and I've never doubted that there are many very helpful and dedicated staff (and managers) in the rail industry.

The sad thing is that there are also many who are less helpful. It's just a lottery when bad experiences strike, but the very fact that I've had so many good experiences too, is what keeps me using trains, and advocating them to friends and family.

I'm writing this while on board an XC train now, an hour earlier than booked thanks to a helpful train manager, sitting in comfort and on schedule.

On our journey south two weeks ago, the train manager on the later train that we did catch, was an absolute credit to the railways. I'm very aware that it's not all bad

 

[Tetragon213]

For the most part, I've seen relatively enthusiastic staff who were friendly and professional. HOWEVER...

Even though in retrospect it wasn't common, I still vividly remember some of the worst experiences I've had with staff; much more so than the fantastic experiences I've had elsewhere. As an example, I remember being given a slightly more eloquently "bugger off" from a CrossCountry guard after I informed him some scrote stole my seat reservation on a packed train. Now, had the guard said, "terribly sorry sir, but there's nothing I can do in this situation, but have you tried Coach Z?", or WTTE, I would have been massively less annoyed; it was the fact he told me to effectively bugger off which so incensed me. That incident remains one of very few times in my life I have written a complaint not only to the TOC, but to my MP over the issue of poor treatment of passengers by the railway.

People far more strongly remember negative than positive experiences.

 

[Shrop]

Well a good trip back yesterday with XC - at least our train ran as scheduled and on time all the way from Southampton to Wolverhampton. The extra hour to go via Guildford was expected, so no problem there.

Interesting that the barriers at Southampton were unstaffed and no-one came to check our tickets throughout the trip. Actually that's not quite the full story.

The train manager came part way along our carriage after Oxford, checking tickets, but the train was so full that he gave up and returned the other way. This was the same reason we couldn't get any refreshments throughout our four hour trip. There weren't any before Reading, and after that it was impossible to reach the trolley, not without serious risk of spilling hot drinks on to people.

In practice the Train Manager probably could have fought his way through to check more tickets, but I'm guessing he realised that his time listening to complaints about lack of space etc wasn't worth the effort, and he could find more productive things to do.

So once again, the demand for seats far exceeds supply, and yet for some reason those in power can't or don't wish to find a way to address the problem.

 

[Haywain]

I've never doubted that there are many very helpful and dedicated staff (and managers) in the rail industry.

You need to make up your mind. The earlier comment (below) is pretty disparaging.

Many, if not most staff, and similarly in rail management, are only there to earn a wage by being present during their contracted hours, they care little about passenger/customer service.

Of course there are some that do care, but they seem to be outnumbered by the automatons that don't.

 

[Krokodil]

Ultimately being a member of staff who cares about the service provided is just going to lead to disappointment.

 

[Shrop]

You need to make up your mind. The earlier comment (below) is pretty disparaging. (See post #218 and those that it references - my insertion)

Yes, but it was written out of despair. As I've demonstrated upthread, I've encountered many occasions when rail staff have not shown the care or competence that passengers have a right to expect, and then when making complaints about shoddy treatment, customer services have been horribly dismissive too.

Others on this thread have demonstrated that they too, have good reasons to share my despair. This goes up to rail management and Government, neither of whom seem either able or willing to do all that much about it.

I reiterate my unreserved recognition that many rail staff and management do an excellent job in difficult circumstances, and really do go the extra mile when needed, often for insufficient reward. However there are also many in the industry at all levels, who see their jobs as nothing more than a means to earn a wage, and who will far too readily dismiss the woes of stranded passengers the minute that their paid hours are over.

The answers to all of this don't lie in adversarial messages on this forum, and I apologise if there are times when my own messages might seem like that. What I do want is to see meaningful discussion among those with the power to get things improved, and most importantly to engage directly with those who know how it feels to be on the receiving end of shoddy services.

If you can suggest a way that our rail services (and more widely our transport system too) could be improved, please do share it. I don't think we should simply focus on the reasons why things can't be done, such as management seeing staff as difficult or un co-operative, or staff seeing management as uncaring and out of touch. We need to recognise that the problems are many, and discuss positively, how things could be improved.

 

[LMS 4F]

I suspect that these attitudes of disinterest are widespread throughout society. The number of times I have been served by people who are surly or just grunt when spoKen to is too many to count.
The difference is that I can choose not to give that store, cafe or whatever my custom in future.
However with the railway and other transport choices the other options aren’t available or as easily swapped without detrimental effects on me the consumer.
It certainly seems to have got far worse since COVID.

 

[TheSel]

...

So once again, the demand for seats far exceeds supply, and yet for some reason those in power can't or don't wish to find a way to address the problem.

Be careful what you wish for. The easiest solution to this is to suppress demand by increasing fares. Particularly so when resources are scarce.

This is undoubtedly discriminatory against those in society with less discretionary cash available, but hey-ho, it's the way of the world.

 

[Shrop]

Be careful what you wish for. The easiest solution to this is to suppress demand by increasing fares. Particularly so when resources are scarce.

This is undoubtedly discriminatory against those in society with less discretionary cash available, but hey-ho, it's the way of the world.

You've hit exactly on my point. The answer is NOT to suppress demand, because that's the negative approach.

What I'm wishing for is a positive approach, ie to increase supply.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ultimately being a member of staff who cares about the service provided is just going to lead to disappointment.

On the front line, perhaps. Because on the front line you can never win.

But management should not share that view.

 

[35B]

You've hit exactly on my point. The answer is NOT to suppress demand, because that's the negative approach.

What I'm wishing for is a positive approach, ie to increase supply.

Which is generally the right approach. Without wishing to sound negative, the challenge for managers is that the increase in supply comes with significant costs, and the extra revenue may well not reduce the percentage losses*. That is a hard position to be in, doubly so with HM Treasury in the background.

* - basic supply and demand tells us that the increased supply may actually reduce the prices that people are willing to pay.

 

[Tetragon213]

After tonight's absolutely shambolic performance by LNWR through Northampton, I can quite safely say I have lost any faith I had in the railway.

I have been travelling since 1556 and have bounced twice between Northampton and Milton Keynes. The sun has gone down in that time, and I don't think I'm going to get home until about 11pm; around 5 hours late on a nominal 2 hour journey, and 2 1/4 hours by car.

No wonder the railway has never reached such a nadir in public opinion.

 

[Shrop]

Unfortunately Cross Country due to the nature of their traincrew agreements frequently cancel services on Sundays. On the positive side (if you can call it that) they do as you say advertise this the previous day and allow travel on services either side of the booked train to allow passengers to replan their journey.

Coming back to this point, XC have absolutely excelled even their own abysmal standards this weekend.

I'd like to know how a large company such as XC can be permitted to continue to operate when they demonstrably have little or no backup plans for failures.

And how any self respecting Government can perpetuate this dire contracting system that allows such incompetence to continue.

 

[dk1]

Coming back to this point, XC have absolutely excelled even their own abysmal standards this weekend.

I'd like to know how a large company such as XC can be permitted to continue to operate when they demonstrably have little or no backup plans for failures.

And how any self respecting Government can perpetuate this dire contracting system that allows such incompetence to continue.

Everything they do is known about and governed by the DfT. No doubt an explanation will go in along with a side plan to possibly mitigate against a future issue and that will be that. Not much else can be done really with just 14 or so months left on the contract.

 

[The Planner]

Coming back to this point, XC have absolutely excelled even their own abysmal standards this weekend.

I'd like to know how a large company such as XC can be permitted to continue to operate when they demonstrably have little or no backup plans for failures.

And how any self respecting Government can perpetuate this dire contracting system that allows such incompetence to continue.

What/who are you replacing them with?

 

[35B]

Coming back to this point, XC have absolutely excelled even their own abysmal standards this weekend.

I'd like to know how a large company such as XC can be permitted to continue to operate when they demonstrably have little or no backup plans for failures.

And how any self respecting Government can perpetuate this dire contracting system that allows such incompetence to continue.

You may want to ask which government placed the contracts, and sets the budgets that they have to operate within.

 

[Harpo]

What/who are you replacing them with?

As The Who said, ‘Meet the new boss…….’

 

[Tetragon213]

Fixing some of the most egregious problems with the XC franchise upon renationalisation, would be one of the easiest and quickest "wins" available for the new GBR.

The XC network covers vast swathes of the non-London parts of the country, and making sweeping changes to deal with the issue would be a very quick "victory" to plaster across the stations.

 

[35B]

Fixing some of the most egregious problems with the XC franchise upon renationalisation, would be one of the easiest and quickest "wins" available for the new GBR.

The XC network covers vast swathes of the non-London parts of the country, and making sweeping changes to deal with the issue would be a very quick "victory" to plaster across the stations.

Really? It's not worked with Northern, so I see no reason to see why it should work on XC. They've had 20 years of operating on minimal budgets, explaining away inadequate stock and generally being beaten down, and now they've had much more aggressive management and the complete mess of the weekend. If you could magically change the stock and timetables to magic something up, you've still to deal with that long legacy of people conditioned to fear the worst.

I remember the introduction of NSE. It was a great blast of publicity, lots of change - and it still took a lot of people a long time to shift their expectations, while the new fleets also took a while to arrive. InterCity was the same.

 

[yorksrob]

Really? It's not worked with Northern, so I see no reason to see why it should work on XC. They've had 20 years of operating on minimal budgets, explaining away inadequate stock and generally being beaten down, and now they've had much more aggressive management and the complete mess of the weekend. If you could magically change the stock and timetables to magic something up, you've still to deal with that long legacy of people conditioned to fear the worst.

I remember the introduction of NSE. It was a great blast of publicity, lots of change - and it still took a lot of people a long time to shift their expectations, while the new fleets also took a while to arrive. InterCity was the same.

Various aspects of Northern (and TPE for that matter) are considerably better than even a few years ago - that's involved improving various staffing/rolling stock issues (precisely the things that need sorting out on XC).

 

[35B]

Various aspects of Northern (and TPE for that matter) are considerably better than even a few years ago - that's involved improving various staffing/rolling stock issues (precisely the things that need sorting out on XC).

But still not good, especially in the NW. And that’s after several years - not the quick fix suggested by @Tetragon213.

 

[Shrop]

What/who are you replacing them with?

As indicated in my post that you’ve replied to, it isn’t just that the company needs replacing, it’s the over-arching system too. There is no point in replacing one incompetent company with another when the same general system of rules applies.

Here’s a thought. The Wrexham and Shropshire company that ran from 2008 until 2011. They were squashed out of existence by Virgin Trains who, by exploiting the prevailing system, took numerous measures to eliminate them.

Virgin used their power to ensure that W&S weren’t permitted to use the fast route into Euston, forcing them instead to use the route into Marylebone. They also ensured that W&S were prohibited from picking up passengers at major stations such as Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street and Coventry, even though their trains ran through these stations.

Not satisfied with that, they also started up a competing service from Wrexham to Euston using the much faster WCML, as soon as W&S started operating. But it wasn’t just Virgin as the guilty TOC that prevented fair competition for passengers, it was the system that permitted it. Eventually, the company run by people with a genuine passion for railways, were forced out by company which functioned primarily to make money, whose management was littered with people who didn’t personally use railways much, if at all.

This same system allows companies such as XC to operate in a manner which is prone to failure, because it runs with such minute margins for error that it will regularly fail when tested, and whose management have little or no experience of using the railways themselves. Particularly on Sundays. But it gets worse, because it’s the passengers who suffer first and foremost, and rail companies sink ever lower in public perception, fuelled as always by petrol-headed journalists who can’t wait to produce bad publicity about them.

So to answer your question, we need to go back to the days when our railways were run by people who genuinely have a passion for railways, such as those who tried their best against unfair rules, to run W&S.

Some people, sadly even on this forum, love to pour scorn on this way of thinking, labelling such would-be operators as trainspotters. What such people fail to recognise is the value of this passion.

Many in the rail hierarchy swan into the industry with a proven record of making money in an unrelated industry, but little or no awareness about railways, and once they’ve failed to make a success of our railways, they simply swan off into something else.

Once again, I recognise that there are many in the industry who actually do have this genuine passion, but the industry is also peppered with many who couldn’t care less for railways, so long as they make money for themselves.

If we don’t recognise this and give more credence to those with this passion, whilst ceasing to engage those who don’t, then our railways will continue to fail.

 

[Harpo]

it isn’t just that the company needs replacing, it’s the over-arching system too.

The ‘over arching system’ is DfT micromanagement driven by reacting to treasury strictures. Good luck finding a replacement.

 

[35B]

As indicated in my post that you’ve replied to, it isn’t just that the company needs replacing, it’s the over-arching system too. There is no point in replacing one incompetent company with another when the same general system of rules applies.

Here’s a thought. The Wrexham and Shropshire company that ran from 2008 until 2011. They were squashed out of existence by Virgin Trains who, by exploiting the prevailing system, took numerous measures to eliminate them.

Virgin used their power to ensure that W&S weren’t permitted to use the fast route into Euston, forcing them instead to use the route into Marylebone. They also ensured that W&S were prohibited from picking up passengers at major stations such as Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street and Coventry, even though their trains ran through these stations.

Not satisfied with that, they also started up a competing service from Wrexham to Euston using the much faster WCML, as soon as W&S started operating. But it wasn’t just Virgin as the guilty TOC that prevented fair competition for passengers, it was the system that permitted it.

This is an inaccurate representation of what actually happened. In particular, by focusing on Virgin West Coast, you miss the fact that the key decisions were taken by DfT who used their authority to block WSMR. The possible exception (I've heard various views) is the Virgin extension to Wrexham.

 

[Haywain]

Here’s a thought. The Wrexham and Shropshire company that ran from 2008 until 2011. They were squashed out of existence by Virgin Trains who, by exploiting the prevailing system, took numerous measures to eliminate them.

Virgin used their power to ensure that W&S weren’t permitted to use the fast route into Euston, forcing them instead to use the route into Marylebone. They also ensured that W&S were prohibited from picking up passengers at major stations such as Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street and Coventry, even though their trains ran through these stations.

Not satisfied with that, they also started up a competing service from Wrexham to Euston using the much faster WCML, as soon as W&S started operating. But it wasn’t just Virgin as the guilty TOC that prevented fair competition for passengers, it was the system that permitted it. Eventually, the company run by people with a genuine passion for railways, were forced out by company which functioned primarily to make money, whose management was littered with people who didn’t personally use railways much, if at all.

So, essentially you're saying that you want a system where the right sort of private operators (WSMR*) can do what they like rather than one where the wrong sort of private operators (Virgin trains) can do what they like?


*That name wouldn't have worked well if they'd run to Euston.

In particular, by focusing on Virgin West Coast, you miss the fact that the key decisions were taken by DfT who used their authority to block WSMR.

Moderation of competition was, I believe, part of the agreement for Virgin putting up with West Coast modernisation.

 

[35B]

Moderation of competition was, I believe, part of the agreement for Virgin putting up with West Coast modernisation.

It was. But it was DfT that instructed Virgin to object to WSMR, not the other way round.