Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Bald Rick]

What would your alternative be to strike action?

Help your colleagues find solutons to the problems.

 

[43096]

my bold

I'm not sure about that. The word at the time was that Alsthom* baied out of the 222 maintenance contract - possibly in high dudgeon - as soon as it was announced that Hitachi had won the contract for the building their replacement. Whether that has any basis in reality I don't know.

Edit; correction, Bombardier not Alsthom - see post from D365 below.

And it’s Alstom not Alsthom and has been for well over 25 years. As @SansHache would confirm!

 

[liamf656]

Help your colleagues find solutons to the problems.

Do you know whether potential solutions have been exhausted or not?

 

[fishwomp]

Do you know whether potential solutions have been exhausted or not?

I don't think "going on strike" was in the list of potential solutions - fair play to RMT for thinking outside the box. It's genius!

I can see how this works

- no guards means no trains,
- no trains means no failures in service
- no failures in service and fewer used sets means no penalty if Hitachi provide stock that sits in the sidings.
- Problem solved!

So now, ..
- Hitachi saves money.
- Guards lose wages.
- Other staff lose overtime.
- No passengers and no revenue.

Oh. Actually, no, when I think about it, going on strike is a terrible idea.

Isn't this the opposite of the solution.. In what way is not running trains going to be punishing / focussing the minds at Hitachi more?

 

[liamf656]

Isn't this the opposite of the solution.. In what way is not running trains going to be punishing / focussing the minds at Hitachi more?

You've replied to my question towards someone else with a completely irrelevant answer, but I will reiterate that strike action is the last resort after months of patience and talks. It isn't just about the 222/810 fleet as I also mentioned upthread

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you know whether potential solutions have been exhausted or not?

No. Do you?

 

[liamf656]

No. Do you?

No, but I highly doubt they'd have balloted if they hadn't at least tried other avenues, otherwise it will have been foolish. I suppose we can agree to disagree however.
I'm sure (but correct me otherwise) that you are of the same opinion that regardless of what transpires over the coming weeks/months, the situation with EMR's fleet, reduced timetable and industrial relations has a long way to go, but once things do improve we can all collectovely sigh with relief

 

[DDB]

The local Derby paper website is covering this with the headline

Three weekend strike dates planned over 'unsafe' East Midlands Railway trains involved in fatal crash

And subheadline

The Bedford crash killed a train driver and left over 150 people with injuries

With an accompanying picture from the crash
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/three-weekend-strike-dates-planned-11071092

People will no doubt be quick to blame shoddy journalism but I would argue this is the direct result of that awful RMT press release.

 

[SilentGrade]

Thanks. It does seem a bit odd, but perhaps they expect it to be disruptive enough that it will get the attention they want it to deliver.

But it’s already getting the attention at a national level and EMR will already be acutely aware of the need to find a solution ASAP

It’s classic RMT militancy of caring more about ‘being seen to do something radical’ rather than working constructively on finding solutions to industry problems.

Not coming to work over ‘unsafe’ units and then working them the next day is bonkers and just diverts EMRs attention from fixing the problem to having to mitigate the Industrial action.

 

[Bald Rick]

No, but I highly doubt they'd have balloted if they hadn't at least tried other avenues, otherwise it will have been foolish.

It will certainly have been foolish in those circumstances, yes.

I suppose we can agree to disagree however.

Yes.

I'm sure (but correct me otherwise) that you are of the same opinion that regardless of what transpires over the coming weeks/months, the situation with EMR's fleet, reduced timetable and industrial relations has a long way to go, but once things do improve we can all collectovely sigh with relief

Agreed

 

[Nym]

Help your colleagues find solutons to the problems.

That would rely on the upper echelons of Managment actually listening to the shop floor to work properly.

 

[londonmidland]

The external fans on these are extremely loud, measuring at over 90 decibels.

Very unpleasant if you are exposed to this noise for a prolonged period.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The external fans on these are extremely loud, measuring at over 90 decibels.

Very unpleasant if you are exposed to this noise for a prolonged period.

Yes, they all seem to do it.

Another feature. I travelled on 810015 in the motor composite in both power modes. Under acceleration between the speeds of perhaps 10 and 35 mph some very harsh high frequency harmonic or synchronous vibration set in, not only noisy but making the window plans, tables, seats - just about everything - vibrate visibly.
I asked the passing Hitachi fitter about it and he said 'traction motors'. Might not be a feature of all the fleet, of course.

Remember when electric trains were said to be 'smooth and silent' compared to the diesel trains they replaced?

 

[londonmidland]

Another feature. I travelled on 810015 in the motor composite in both power modes. Under acceleration between the speeds of perhaps 10 and 35 mph some very harsh high frequency harmonic or synchronous vibration set in, not only noisy but making the window plans, tables, seats - just about everything - vibrate visibly.
I asked the passing Hitachi fitter about it and he said 'traction motors'. Might not be a feature of all the fleet, of course.

Coincidentally, this is exactly what I heard when travelling with 810014 this morning.

The traction motors are extremely loud around that speed range, both when accelerating and slowing down.

As you mentioned, the sound dominates the entire interior of the carriage. You can feel it travel right through you.

 

[Pete_uk]

Yes, they all seem to do it.

Another feature. I travelled on 810015 in the motor composite in both power modes. Under acceleration between the speeds of perhaps 10 and 35 mph some very harsh high frequency harmonic or synchronous vibration set in, not only noisy but making the window plans, tables, seats - just about everything - vibrate visibly.
I asked the passing Hitachi fitter about it and he said 'traction motors'. Might not be a feature of all the fleet, of course.

Remember when electric trains were said to be 'smooth and silent' compared to the diesel trains they replaced?

There is an annoying sound like what you described on the GWR 800s too.

 

[YamYamDave]

A lot is said about “squeezing” equipment into the 24m class 810, but am I mistaken in thinking the bogie centres are the same as on a standard 26m class 80x? If this is the case, how much stuff is mounted outboard of the bogies on a 26m variant and where has it been relocated on an 810?

Heat, in short. Wiring looms and other circuitry are enclosed in tighter spaces and in closer proximity to things like heat exchangers vs the rest of the fleet. Drivers also complain the cabs become unbearably hot, where key safety systems are located e.g. AWS

 

[800001]

Heat, in short. Wiring looms and other circuitry are enclosed in tighter spaces and in closer proximity to things like heat exchangers vs the rest of the fleet. Drivers also complain the cabs become unbearably hot, where key safety systems are located e.g. AWS

The wiring looms in tighter enclosed spaces were the cause of the several 'thermal incidents'.

 

[jfowkes]

The external fans on these are extremely loud, measuring at over 90 decibels.

Very unpleasant if you are exposed to this noise for a prolonged period.

Heat, in short. Wiring looms and other circuitry are enclosed in tighter spaces and in closer proximity to things like heat exchangers vs the rest of the fleet. Drivers also complain the cabs become unbearably hot, where key safety systems are located e.g. AWS

The wiring looms in tighter enclosed spaces were the cause of the several 'thermal incidents'.

Very loud external fans and having issues with thermal control are probably related. If you need to move a lot of air and you haven't got the space to make the fans bigger, you can at least make them more powerful.

 

[liamf656]

810003/004 are on their last test run today, and will soon return to Newton Aycliffe to be brought up to passenger standard

 

[800001]

810003/004 are on their last test run today, and will soon return to Newton Aycliffe to be brought up to passenger standard

The standard of which is running now?
Or a fault free train with all the current faults sorted?

On a serious note, I would of naively thought they would keep utilising these two sets at Old Dalby to modify and update the units to sort out all the problems that they are currently experiencing with the accepted sets.

Perfect place off the mainline. Can do up to 125mph on the test track.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yes in theory a union could blacklist a particular type as 'unsafe' and refuse to operate that type, but continue working other types.

Having a strike covering all types of traction just loses its members money. Disrupting a 222 service, a type that has been used 24 years and now suddenly deciding strike based on calendar period, not by type of train makes no sense.

The RMT also needs to be careful, that it doesn't undermine the regulator that has approved the type (it might even have members who work there). If it is aware of critical or dangerous faults then presumably it should be taking them to the Rail regulator that approved them, or Rail Accident branch (as unacceptable hazard), and explaining what the worries are.

Simply having 3 random days of not working, but happy to work the trains between the strike days. It's bonkers safety logic by RMT.

RMT = some trains will be operating, but on reduced frequencies.

 

[Railperf]

How many Class 810's are now officially accepted and available for traffic?

 

[liamf656]

How many Class 810's are now officially accepted and available for traffic?

It's difficult to give a number at the moment but I'll give you a list of units that have been accepted by EMR and their status

006 - Passenger service
008 - Training unit
009 - Training unit
010 - Passenger service
011 - Passenger service
012 - Passenger service
013 - Passenger service
014 - Passenger service
015 - Involved in the collision
016 - Passenger service
018 - Passenger service
019 - Old Dalby for wiring work
022 - Passenger service

If it isn't listed, it's still in the hands of Hitachi and hasn't yet been delivered.
008/009 need to go back to Aycliffe for their interiors to be finished, and I'm not sure how long 019 will take. Hope this helps

 

[GWVillager]

Yes, they all seem to do it.

Another feature. I travelled on 810015 in the motor composite in both power modes. Under acceleration between the speeds of perhaps 10 and 35 mph some very harsh high frequency harmonic or synchronous vibration set in, not only noisy but making the window plans, tables, seats - just about everything - vibrate visibly.
I asked the passing Hitachi fitter about it and he said 'traction motors'. Might not be a feature of all the fleet, of course.

Remember when electric trains were said to be 'smooth and silent' compared to the diesel trains they replaced?

Glad to see this mentioned! I’ve found this whine insufferable - it makes my ears hurt and I wouldn’t be surprised if staff have reasonable grounds to object to the noise for hours every day.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Coincidentally, this is exactly what I heard when travelling with 810014 this morning.

The traction motors are extremely loud around that speed range, both when accelerating and slowing down.

As you mentioned, the sound dominates the entire interior of the carriage. You can feel it travel right through you.

Glad to see this mentioned! I’ve found this whine insufferable - it makes my ears hurt and I wouldn’t be surprised if staff have reasonable grounds to object to the noise for hours every day.

Interesting that I'm not alone.
For those who have never had the experience of towing old buses with a WW2 ex Army AEC 'Matador' you can recreate the in-cab experience on an 810.

 

[Rob F]

Heat, in short. Wiring looms and other circuitry are enclosed in tighter spaces and in closer proximity to things like heat exchangers vs the rest of the fleet. Drivers also complain the cabs become unbearably hot, where key safety systems are located e.g. AWS

But my initial question still stands. If the space between the bogies is the same, what is located outboard of the bogies on an 800 that has had to be relocated on an 810? Just curious.

 

[londonmidland]

810012 seems to experiencing issues after gaining a 35 minute delay in the Luton Airport Parkway area (reboot taken place, by any chance?)

1F22 St Pancras to Sheffield is now terminating early at Derby, where the unit will presumably be taken out of service and be sent to Etches Park.

 

[superkev]

Watching the Green Signsls Youtube news channel it was mentioned "the 810s use the Italian AnsaldoBreda wiring system".
AnsaldoBreda of course have form including the original Midland metro trams and troubles with train reliability actrss europe returned a whole batch of trains in Europe before being taken over by Hitachi
K

 

[superalbs]

Watching the Green Signsls Youtub channel it was mentioned the 810s use the Italian AnsaldoBreda wiring system. AnsaldoBreda of course have form including the original Midland metro trams and someone returned a whole batch of trains in Europe
K

Is this different to the original design 80x that were built there?

 

[Budge1980]

810012 seems to experiencing issues after gaining a 35 minute delay in the Luton Airport Parkway area (reboot taken place, by any chance?)

1F22 St Pancras to Sheffield is now terminating early at Derby, where the unit will presumably be taken out of service and be sent to Etches Park.

I witnessed this 1st hand. It was sat at Platform 4 at Harpenden under going an inspection. An on board member of staff was on the platform with approx 3-4 people in high viz inspecting the final carriage. I could have been more nosey and listened in, to establish more, but didn't want to be rude. I got the impression whilst the train was moving, staff were noticing a problem and the train was stopped to be checked.

It seemed no issue was visible and one suggestion put forward to continue the journey and monitor if the problem was recurring before deciding whether to withdraw the unit from service, with the added suggestion it carried on initially at a reduced speed. By the looks of thing, that's what happened. It was clear that safety was of paramount concern as would be expected.