Class 185s post-TRU

[quantinghome]

I know this has been discussed previously, but do we have any more detailed idea what is going to happen to the Class 185s post-TRU? Assuming Transpennine will completely replace them on the north Transpennine route and retain 16-20 units to run the south Transpennine route, that will free up at least 30 units. But where would they best be deployed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know this has been discussed previously, but do we have any more detailed idea what is going to happen to the Class 185s post-TRU? Assuming Transpennine will completely replace them on the north Transpennine route and retain 16-20 units to run the south Transpennine route, that will free up at least 30 units. But where would they best be deployed?

I doubt anything has been decided, but now ScotRail have sorted their express services with the 222s logic would probably be replacing 15x on Northern. A cascade would make some sense, allowing more 195s to run on urban stopping services where their acceleration is of most benefit, so 185s back on Barrows and Windermeres might be of benefit pending the bi modes, and similarly on other limited stop DMU services.

 

[Iskra]

It might make some sense for 185’s to run EMR’s current Liverpool-Nottingham services to free up more trains for EMR too.

 

[DiddyKongRacin]

Given that Northern has an active tender to replace most of their fleet before the Transpennine Route Upgrade is finished (which even with the current delays and a lot of pessimism...), EMR probably needs them quite desperately.

 

[quantinghome]

Given that Northern has an active tender to replace most of their fleet before the Transpennine Route Upgrade is finished (which even with the current delays and a lot of pessimism...), EMR probably needs them quite desperately.

AFAIUI the new Transpennine fleet won't be ready for a few years - it's certainly not going to get EMR out of their current rolling stock predicament.

It might make some sense for 185’s to run EMR’s current Liverpool-Nottingham services to free up more trains for EMR too.

Might be tricky east of Nottingham - I believe the 185s are heavy and therefore have lower speed limits on line over the fens.

I doubt anything has been decided, but now ScotRail have sorted their express services with the 222s logic would probably be replacing 15x on Northern. A cascade would make some sense, allowing more 195s to run on urban stopping services where their acceleration is of most benefit, so 185s back on Barrows and Windermeres might be of benefit pending the bi modes, and similarly on other limited stop DMU services.

How do the 185s and 195s compare over long distance? The 185s have high horsepower for hills so keeping them on the other trans-pennine routes i.e. Leeds-Manchester Vic/Blackpool, Settle-Carlisle might be the best place for them.

 

[Iskra]

Might be tricky east of Nottingham - I believe the 185s are heavy and therefore have lower speed limits on line over the fens..

…Which is why I didn’t say they would be going East of Nottingham

 

[quantinghome]

…Which is why I didn’t say they would be going East of Nottingham

You're not suggesting... ??!!

 

[Iskra]

You're not suggesting... ??!!

I’d have said Liverpool-Norwich if that’s what I meant

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Might be tricky east of Nottingham - I believe the 185s are heavy and therefore have lower speed limits on line over the fens.

…Which is why I didn’t say they would be going East of Nottingham

Same problem through the Hope Valley, 185s can't go as fast as 158/170s since they can't use the higher speed limits.

 

[quantinghome]

I’d have said Liverpool-Norwich if that’s what I meant

I mean, if you're suggesting we can't run a direct train every hour for all the passengers travelling from Chesterfield to Thetford then we may as well pack up the railways and go home; this country's finished.

 

[Iskra]

Same problem through the Hope Valley, 185s can't go as fast as 158/170s since they can't use the higher speed limits.

True, but I’m not sure that’s an unsolvable problem.

 

[Donny Dave]

How much of a diet can the 185s go on though?

In a post I made about my travels last year, I did say that the Tyne Valley and S&C would be ideal homes for the 185s if/when TPE go fully bi-mode. I'll add to that. The Calderdale line as well. The reasoning for these suggestions is that the acceleration of them will deliver journey time improvements even before any infrastructure upgrades are made, plus the capacity increase over a 15x along the routes.

 

[Egg Centric]

How much of a diet can the 185s go on though?

In a post I made about my travels last year, I did say that the Tyne Valley and S&C would be ideal homes for the 185s if/when TPE go fully bi-mode. I'll add to that. The Calderdale line as well. The reasoning for these suggestions is that the acceleration of them will deliver journey time improvements even before any infrastructure upgrades are made, plus the capacity increase over a 15x along the routes.

What speed do 185s change into third (Im travelling on one in a couple of hours so might be able to figure this out)? Assuming it to be above 60 which is the line speed on the S&C - and I don't think that the Tyne Valley is much higher - then would this be a problem? Presumably never using top is bad for the gearbox. I suppose you could regear them... acceleration would be epic

 

[sh24]

They would be ideal for Cardiff-Portsmouth to get rid of the 158's.

 

[KevinTurvey]

If they gradually migrate to Calder Valley services and maybe Leeds-Carlisle/Lancaster services as the main TRU is complete, I think is a sensible option for their final years until replacement. They are 20 years old now, but still are decent and capable units.

I think they should remain in the Lancs/Yorks/Cumbria area due to staff familiarity and depot location - moving them (a small unique fleet) to an entirely new location would be problematic.

 

[Snow1964]

They would be ideal for Cardiff-Portsmouth to get rid of the 158's.

There are some line speed differentials in the Avon Valley, but would probably be offset by faster acceleration on other sections, the 158s don't race up the hills to Warminster.

If looking for a home for nearly 30 of them them then could add Cardiff- Plymouth (currently split at Exeter), the Devon banks wouldn't be a problem. If it frees up some IETs that can't be bad.

AFAIUI the new Transpennine fleet won't be ready for a few years - it's certainly not going to get EMR out of their current rolling stock predicament.

But it will be same problem if they went on GWR (GBR-GW soon) routes, extra stock is desperately needed now, not in early 2030s when Transpennine can release it.

In both cases, ought to be new stock to replace 35 year old diesels, so might not be needed.

I guess Lord Hendy's rolling stock strategy will have some sort of cascade when it is published later this year. They know when new electric trains (assuming they eventually get ordered) can take over, freeing up 185s

 

[Egg Centric]

What speed do 185s change into third (Im travelling on one in a couple of hours so might be able to figure this out)?

The answer to this based on my gps appears to be approximately 77mph albeit something also seems to be wrong with this unit (I think, don't know what) as the revs keep "juddering" in the manner of a car with a slipping clutch.

Anyway if I'm right about that - and the "juddering" means I might not be - then I don't think Settle and Carlisle or Tyne Valley would be appropriate, you want somewhere with at least 80mph limits.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Roughly 55mph is ‘gear change’ 1 and then roughly 78mph is ‘gear change’ 2 on a 185

 

[Helvellyn]

Don't forget that at the point the TRU upgrade allows the 185s to be cascaded from TransPennine North services we will have GBR in existence. A more holistic view of stock cascades will be taken. But GBR could also reorganise services and the much-mooted splitting of Norwich-Liverpool could eventually happen, with all 185s used on an enhanced TransPennine South service group, say Liverpool-Cleethorpes and Liverpool-Nottingham, or even split at Sheffield and join it with a Northern Sheffield-Lincoln (timetable re-write), and leave the East Mids operation with a Norwich-Sheffield.

 

[TastyMaltesers]

I think a lot of places are in want of some new DMUs!

 

[gingertom]

I think a lot of places are in want of some new DMUs!

Indeed! But where best to make use of their hill-climbing abilities, for which they were designed with the 750bhp 19QSK engines? Devon banks services look to be a good fit.

 

[brad465]

There are some line speed differentials in the Avon Valley, but would probably be offset by faster acceleration on other sections, the 158s don't race up the hills to Warminster.

If looking for a home for nearly 30 of them them then could add Cardiff- Plymouth (currently split at Exeter), the Devon banks wouldn't be a problem. If it frees up some IETs that can't be bad.

This is what I'd go for; put them on what 175s are being allocated, then use the 175s to run more longer Tarka line formations and enhance the Bristol-Exeter line frequency, with the IETs being used to run more extensions off the London-Bristol services. Between Bristol-Exeter-Plymouth is also good in that there are no/very few speed differentials.

 

[sh24]

Of course, would mean the South West getting more cast offs from other parts of the country which might raise some eyebrows. Especially as the North is seeing huge investment with HS2 and TRUG.

 

[Iskra]

Realistically, they aren't going to be moved away from their existing depots, so any suggestions ought to account for that.

In addition to what has already been said; Manchester-Barrow would be another reasonable use to release 195's for other work.

 

[Zomboid]

Realistically, they aren't going to be moved away from their existing depots, so any suggestions ought to account for that.

In addition to what has already been said; Manchester-Barrow would be another reasonable use to release 195's for other work.

I didn't see why not, it wouldn't be the first time a fleet were relocated away from their original depots. If they go off lease then they'll be moved to whoever ends up taking them on, which may or may not be in the north of England.

 

[sad1e]

To be honest I could see Chiltern grabbing a few , with their 165/0s becoming increasingly knackered and unreliable with no replacement on the horizon or tender out to replace them they'll need to find a competent replacement for them somewhere. And since 185s are geared for the pennines they'll be able to tackle the Chilterns no problem.

 

[LowLevel]

True, but I’m not sure that’s an unsolvable problem.

Hasn't it already been solved, the "SP" differentials on the Hope Valley were changed to "MU" in the last couple of years presumably to allow 185s to run faster. Not that it makes much difference with the temporary speed restrictions in place anyway!

 

[Acathater]

Use the 185s on Waterloo-Exeter, Bristol-Portsmouth, Exeter-Bristol routes. Base the whole lot at Salisbury and interwork the three routes.
That would release the 158+159 fleet to be sent north to join Northern's existing fleet so concentrating them in fewer locations - and also easing the spares supply issues as cannibalisation would be simpler and also you'd need fewer spares sites stocked

 

[JamesT]

To be honest I could see Chiltern grabbing a few , with their 165/0s becoming increasingly knackered and unreliable with no replacement on the horizon or tender out to replace them they'll need to find a competent replacement for them somewhere. And since 185s are geared for the pennines they'll be able to tackle the Chilterns no problem.

Use the 185s on Waterloo-Exeter, Bristol-Portsmouth, Exeter-Bristol routes
That would release the 158+159 fleet to be sent north to join Northern's existing fleet so concentrating them in fewer locations - and also easing the spares supply issues as cannibalisation would be simpler and also you'd need fewer spares sites stocked

Previous threads such as https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ble-combined-fleet-order-philip-haigh.289507/ suggest replacements for those are already being considered. By the time the 185s would be available it’s unlikely you would get a useful period of time out of them in the South.

 

[Egg Centric]

the revs keep "juddering" in the manner of a car with a slipping clutch.

(anyone any idea what this could be btw? it stopped about half way through the journey as well if that's relevant. It definitely didn't sound right, my wife isn't at all a transport enthusiast but she had picked up on it too)