What constitutes an appropriate vehicle for long distance bus services?

[Bletchleyite]

Splitting this one out too...

I've boarded Stagecoach Gold Enviros a few times, sat down on a very comfy seat, and then when the bus starts going along a road that's not in great condition, it's obvious I'm on a bus with coach style seating, not a coach.

This is the main issue with the Oxford-Bedford X5. It doesn't help that they're using a mishmash of used ex-urban double deckers with seats not designed for the long journey, but even if they fitted coach seats (like say the Transdev 36 or the new Trawscymru buses) you still get the rattling and lurching which is the main thing that makes a relatively high speed rural journey on a city bus so unpleasant. In the end these vehicles are designed for pootling along in town at 20-30mph on generally flat roads (give or take some potholes), not this sort of work, and so they are not great when used on it. Deckers are even worse than singles because upstairs there is much more lurching.

I think for Rawtenstall to Manchester (not Stagecoach) it's a reasonable compromise. Ideally you'd hope there's a train to do that journey, but in the absence of one a high quality express bus is the next best thing. I do think high quality interiors should be standard for routes like TransPeak and Scarborough to Whitby. I'm not sure for a route like Altrincham to Manchester Airport via Hale Barns it would attract some of the more affluent people out of their cars and taxis.

Really for Rawtenstall to Manchester what you want is a bus to Bury and Metrolink onwards with some level of fare integration (though if the bus is £2 that probably creates an end to end fare that's about right by just paying for the two elements separately). Or maybe to Rochdale station then the train, though I think Metrolink's very high frequency would win out. As a hybrid service I can sort of see the point, but should the service perhaps just run all stops to Bury then nonstop to Manchester, in which case it would indeed suit a coach?

I've only been on the D&G ones on the 38 route out of Macclesfield. Everything in my area is Enviro 200s these days! My observation was they've crammed in a lot of seats and compromised comfort. Maybe Arriva selected a different internal option, but if they haven't it will be significantly inferior to a coach. Even if the coaches weren't given TLC by either passengers or Arriva.

To be fair I did use the X1 once just to try it, and it was very much a local bus service run with a coach, with lots of prams and the likes which were a faff on the coach. Most of the Luton Airport long distance services are not primarily used by people going to the Airport - many of the flights are at times they don't run anyway. The MK1 for instance is primarily a commuter service with the stop at Kingston in MK and the one just off the motorway in Luton being two of the busiest for "kiss and ride" travel to the Kingston warehouses for work.

 

[signed]

For perspective

In France, the second it becomes rural or interurban with any substantial time onboard, operators run Iveco Crossway LEs or equivalent.

For the longer, you get low spec coaches like normal entry Crossways. Hi-spec coaches (e.g. Iveco Magelys, VanHool TDX21 Altano...) are really reserved to the trunk, the very long lines or ones that spend ages on the motorway.

In Ireland, BÉ has massively invested in VDL Futura 2 Double-Deckers for the public service Bus Eireann services that are high capactiy motorway-intensive. From what I see, you very rarely see a Wright or ADL double-decker on motorway routes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For sheer interest, having a day out in good weather, I decided to use the service 356 from Ashton Interchange to Oldham Interchange, that took two hours to complete that journey. The bus was quite a small Bee Network single decker and being both an octogenarian with numerous ailments, I sat in the single "priority seat" at the front of the bus. Únfortunately the seat pad was not very good and by the time we reached Oldham, my bottom had "gone to sleep"..

 

[RT4038]

My view is that it depends what is 'long distance', what is the percentage of long distance passengers and what is the actual numbers of intermediate passengers boarding and alighting. 'Horses for courses' as routes will have different characteristics.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Really for Rawtenstall to Manchester what you want is a bus to Bury and Metrolink onwards with some level of fare integration

Have you been on the X43? The quality on board the bus is far above what is offered on the trams.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you been on the X43? The quality on board the bus is far above what is offered on the trams.

I've not been on that one but I have been on the same company's 36 which has a similar interior. The seats are certainly nice, but it's still a noisy, lurching bus journey using vehicles unsuitable for higher speed running on the rural sections. In the end a bus is a bus, and you can only polish a turd so much. A coach has air conditioning and air suspension, and so is a much higher quality experience for longer and faster journeys.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I've not been on that one but I have been on the same company's 36 which has a similar interior. The seats are certainly nice, but it's still a noisy, lurching bus journey using vehicles unsuitable for higher speed running on the rural sections. In the end a bus is a bus, and you can only polish a turd so much. A coach has air conditioning and air suspension, and so is a much higher quality experience for longer and faster journeys.

The 36 bus to which you make reference to is not one to draw conclusions against. You admit you have never travelled on the X43 (I have made numerous journeys upon it over the years), so your comments about noisy lurching bus journeys is not one that you can attach to the X43.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 36 bus to which you make reference to is not one to draw conclusions against.

It is because it uses vehicles of the same type with basically the same interior on a similar semi-rural to suburban route.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

The issue with a coach on more intensive services like many of those mentioned in this thread (and the ones it spun out of) is the legal requirement of wheelchair accessibility, and the less legal but more commercial of pushchairs. Stagecoach was recently up in front of the TC due to issues a passenger had in Scotland with unreliability of coach lifts and restraint systems on coaches used on just this type of service. Lifts also take much longer to deploy than ramps so if you have volume travel it will slow down many services. Pushchair access is in a way more important as the accompanying adult is paying full adult fare and the ability of a low floor bus to allow the child to be left undisturbed in the pushchair throughout the journey is an actual advantage over cars (where the child has to be moved to/from car seats multiple times).

Wheelchair & disabled accessibility has been one of those things that the UK bus industry adopted well, once low-floors were practical operators adopted it quickly and pretty universally whilst Europe may have had the idea earlier on urban work it was never as fully or quickly adopted. In many areas European interurban/rural operations are much less intensively served in terms of frequency (and so likely demand) and service levels so the use of lifts slowing the journey is less of an issue. The European style high floor semi-coach with lift isn't widely offered by manufacturers in RHD, though whether supply (manufacturers won't offer it) or demand (operators won't buy it) is the issue is less clear.

It is emblematic of the balancing act operators have to deal with that we have this discussion on whether operators should adopt slower boarding high floor coach type vehicles with lifts for some services whilst a discussion has appeared elsewhere around whether operators should go cashless or flat fare to speed boarding.

 

[em81]

Really for Rawtenstall to Manchester what you want is a bus to Bury and Metrolink onwards with some level of fare integration (though if the bus is £2 that probably creates an end to end fare that's about right by just paying for the two elements separately). Or maybe to Rochdale station then the train, though I think Metrolink's very high frequency would win out. As a hybrid service I can sort of see the point, but should the service perhaps just run all stops to Bury then nonstop to Manchester, in which case it would indeed suit a coach?

I'd say no. If you're commuting changing at Bury makes the commute less attractive, especially considering Metrolink is all stops and the X43 runs via the motorway.

Changing to Metrolink normally works fine on trips to Manchester. Going away it's a different story. Metrolink terminate services short if a later service has caught it up. Plus they don't run to a fixed timetable. So trying to connect from a tram every 6 minutes to a bus every 20 is more complex than it sounds. One day you could arrive at a Metrolink stop at 5:15 and get home at 6:05. The next it could be 6:25, and that's presuming the bus service keeps to it's schedule on both days.

 

[BuhSnarf]

From my extensive travels over the past year on longer distances buses I'd rank the order of importance as:

1) The quality of the seat, these should be high backed and have good padding. Legroom should be more than on a standard bus and things like arm rests, cup holders or mini tables are preferable (the X43 and 36 are great examples here with even 2+1 seating.)
2) The quality of the driver, ultimately if the driver is operating the bus like a local bus it will always feel poor.
3) The ambiance of the bus, rattly panels are a no-no as during the journey they'll drive you mad.
4) Engine noise, I've rode the 36 pre-electric and post-electric and the difference is amazing. The ride of an electric bus is so much smoother.

Whilst the type of vehicle absolutely can make a difference I think it needs to be balanced against the route - for example a coach would be great on the X43 whilst going down the motorway, but once in Rawtenstall and up to Burnley it stops way too frequently that a coach would be unfeasible. However, the express limited stop services like the Red Arrow or X6 from Leicester to Coventry absolutely should be a coach. Too many of our "long distance" routes actually end up being local buses for all the villages in between.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

I'd say no. If you're commuting changing at Bury makes the commute less attractive, especially considering Metrolink is all stops and the X43 runs via the motorway.

Changing to Metrolink normally works fine on trips to Manchester. Going away it's a different story. Metrolink terminate services short if a later service has caught it up. Plus they don't run to a fixed timetable. So trying to connect from a tram every 6 minutes to a bus every 20 is more complex than it sounds. One day you could arrive at a Metrolink stop at 5:15 and get home at 6:05. The next it could be 6:25, and that's presuming the bus service keeps to it's schedule on both days.

The other issue you have is that the X43 stops quite a walk away from the Metrolink stop so when I've done the change before it worked out that it would have been easier just staying on the bus without the faff of changing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is because it uses vehicles of the same type with basically the same interior on a similar semi-rural to suburban route.

The X43 uses motorway routing in quite long sections, such as the M62 and the M66 route sections between Prestwich and Rawtenstall, One must also consider the standards of the rural road sections.

 

[BuhSnarf]

The X43 uses motorway routing in quite long sections, such as the M62 and the M66 route sections between Prestwich and Rawtenstall, One must also consider the standards of the rural road sections.

Agree, the X43 on the motorway and good roads feels fairly coach like, the roads the 36 run on are notriously pot holed. Most of the issues with bus ride quality comes from the fact our roads are poor and there are other drivers on them acting upredictably.

I've spent many journeys coming in to London by coach that have had repeated lurches as the coach navigates around Golders Green etc.

 

[johncrossley]

In Ireland, BÉ has massively invested in VDL Futura 2 Double-Deckers for the public service Bus Eireann services that are high capactiy motorway-intensive. From what I see, you very rarely see a Wright or ADL double-decker on motorway routes.

Ireland has long been a fan of using coaches even on infrequent rural services down country lanes. Seems a strange policy on routes which probably carry a lot of old people but it is good from the comfort aspect.

Looking at its fleet on BusTimes, it can be seen that most out of town routes use coaches. Some local routes in the Dublin area use standard buses but a surprising proportion of routes (from an English perspective) use coaches.

Fleet list – Bus Éireann – bustimes.org

bustimes.org

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

The 36 bus to which you make reference to is not one to draw conclusions against. You admit you have never travelled on the X43 (I have made numerous journeys upon it over the years), so your comments about noisy lurching bus journeys is not one that you can attach to the X43.

The X43 used to be run by Plaxton coaches in the 90s, for example

164 Ribble L104SDY Dennis Javelin 11SDA Plaxton Premiere Interurban ex South Coast Buses. Burnley Bus Station 8.8.94

www.flickr.com

so it is a downgrade since those days.

There is a comprehensive network of coach like bus services in the north-east of the Netherlands (Q-Liner). There was discussion about conversion of some of these routes to new Yutong U15 electric buses on this thread from this point

Electric coach (long distance bus) services outside Scotland

Are there any electric coach (long distance/intercity bus) services outside Scotland?

www.railforums.co.uk

I was originally concerned by this but after actually going on the Yutongs on these routes in the Netherlands myself I was pleasantly surprised, and I posted as such on that thread. The difference between this Netherlands example and the current X43 is that while the Yutong U15 is a low floor bus body, it comes with air-conditioning and double-glazing as well as coach seats. It is also quiet as it is electric. So I now think the replacement was a good thing on balance.

 

[Hyebone]

Would Yutong, the current "favourite" coach supplier at the moment, benefit from producing a low-entry coach similar to the Plaxton Panther LE? I feel like these are the best of both worlds; the comfort of a coach, with the accessibility of a low-floor bus.

I asked about the Panther LE once before. The general consensus was that the lack of luggage space made them unviable for most long-distance coach work. My argument is that express commuter buses aren't going to be full of people lugging suitcases between Chesterfield and Sheffield for example.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Would Yutong, the current "favourite" coach supplier at the moment, benefit from producing a low-entry coach similar to the Plaxton Panther LE? I feel like these are the best of both worlds; the comfort of a coach, with the accessibility of a low-floor bus.

I asked about the Panther LE once before. The general consensus was that the lack of luggage space made them unviable for most long-distance coach work. My argument is that express commuter buses aren't going to be full of people lugging suitcases between Chesterfield and Sheffield for example.

I definitely think there is the potential for a "hybrid" type vehicle that offers some of the road comfort of a coach along with the practicality of a bus for these long distance routes with frequent stops.

 

[signed]

Looking at its fleet on BusTimes, it can be seen that most out of town routes use coaches. Some local routes in the Dublin area use standard buses but a surprising proportion of routes (from an English perspective) use coaches.

Correct, doesn't strike me as odd though, it's the correct way to do it.

A city bus shouldn't go down small country roads for 1h+, especially when the passenger numbers aren't that high to warrant a sizeable amount of standees (in which case BÉ just send the Futuras)

The most striking is that the PSO fleet is comparatively much newer than the commercial Expressway arm still rolling 2012 Irizar Centurys and 2014-2016 i6s

Would Yutong, the current "favourite" coach supplier at the moment, benefit from producing a low-entry coach similar to the Plaxton Panther LE? I feel like these are the best of both worlds; the comfort of a coach, with the accessibility of a low-floor bus.

I asked about the Panther LE once before. The general consensus was that the lack of luggage space made them unviable for most long-distance coach work. My argument is that express commuter buses aren't going to be full of people lugging suitcases between Chesterfield and Sheffield for example.

Strikes me as odd as well, the Iveco Crossway LE and others are very popular on the continent and I would be surprised if it didn't take off, either in the UK, or as a replacement for the older Irizar in Bus Eireann as well

Though BÉ does have a lot of B8RLE Sandsegui LE

 

[Bletchleyite]

I definitely think there is the potential for a "hybrid" type vehicle that offers some of the road comfort of a coach along with the practicality of a bus for these long distance routes with frequent stops.

That exists. One was trialled on the Trawscymru T10, basically a coach with a low floor section at the front. There are a few such vehicles, one type only has a few seats downstairs (Interdeck?), the one that was trialled on the T10 was about half low floor half high.. The latter seems quite suitable for these routes though I'd expect the cost was prohibitive?

 

[johncrossley]

Correct, doesn't strike me as odd though, it's the correct way to do it.

A city bus shouldn't go down small country roads for 1h+, especially when the passenger numbers aren't that high to warrant a sizeable amount of standees (in which case BÉ just send the Futuras)

Don't get me wrong, I approve of it. It is just out of step with not only the UK but many other western European countries who would use, at best, standard buses with more comfortable seats. Normally Ireland copies a lot of British bus practice (use of double deckers in cities, driver payment etc.)

 

[BuhSnarf]

That exists. One was trialled on the Trawscymru T10, basically a coach with a low floor section at the front. There are a few such vehicles, one type only has a few seats downstairs (Interdeck?), the one that was trialled on the T10 was about half low floor half high.. The latter seems quite suitable for these routes though I'd expect the cost was prohibitive?

That's interesting, I assume the trial was unsuccessful as it appears the T10 now runs with MCV eVoRa buses? What was the type of vehicle as be interesting to see where it ended up.

Always interested in a high spec bus with a good seat.

 

[Steve440]

That exists. One was trialled on the Trawscymru T10, basically a coach with a low floor section at the front. There are a few such vehicles, one type only has a few seats downstairs (Interdeck?), the one that was trialled on the T10 was about half low floor half high.. The latter seems quite suitable for these routes though I'd expect the cost was prohibitive?

That would have been the Plaxton Panther LE of which only 20 were built, 19 for Stagecoach and the demonstrator. It seemed to be an excellent solution.

YX19MMF (OS)

Seen heading for Bangor Railway Station is Plaxton Panther LE bodied Volvo B8RLE(T) demonstrator YX19MMF on extended trial with Llew Jones of Llanwrst on TrawsCymru service T10 between Bangor and Corwen.

flic.kr

 

[computerSaysNo]

That would have been the Plaxton Panther LE of which only 20 were built, 19 for Stagecoach and the demonstrator. It seemed to be an excellent solution.

YX19MMF (OS)

Seen heading for Bangor Railway Station is Plaxton Panther LE bodied Volvo B8RLE(T) demonstrator YX19MMF on extended trial with Llew Jones of Llanwrst on TrawsCymru service T10 between Bangor and Corwen.

flic.kr

Stagecoach East Scotland now operate all 20, usually on the X55 Dunfermline to Edinburgh and X56 Perth to Edinburgh routes. You can find them on the fleet list here: https://bustimes.org/operators/stagecoach-east-scotland/vehicles

 

[BuhSnarf]

Stagecoach East Scotland now operate all 20, usually on the X55 Dunfermline to Edinburgh and X56 Perth to Edinburgh routes. You can find them on the fleet list here: https://bustimes.org/operators/stagecoach-east-scotland/vehicles

Anyone with any experience of them advise what they're like? They appear to be quite long so I'm assuming not suitable for some routes where tight turning is required?

 

[GusB]

For perspective

In France, the second it becomes rural or interurban with any substantial time onboard, operators run Iveco Crossway LEs or equivalent.

For the longer, you get low spec coaches like normal entry Crossways. Hi-spec coaches (e.g. Iveco Magelys, VanHool TDX21 Altano...) are really reserved to the trunk, the very long lines or ones that spend ages on the motorway.

In Ireland, BÉ has massively invested in VDL Futura 2 Double-Deckers for the public service Bus Eireann services that are high capactiy motorway-intensive. From what I see, you very rarely see a Wright or ADL double-decker on motorway routes.

There isn't really anything that fits the concept of a "dual-purpose" vehicle in this country anymore. Around here, services used to be operated by a mixture of vehicles with bus shells, but fitted with coach seats, or coaches that were modified with wider doors and destination equipment that could be operated on stage services.

Latterly we had the likes of the Plaxton Premier Interurban that Stagecoach introduced in the 90s, but that was before accessibility became a priority and the need to accommodate a wheelchair did away with the space that would previously have been occupied by a luggage pen.

The closest we have these days is the Yutong TCe12s that Stagecoach operates; they can't really be classed as having a full coach specification. However, there is still the problem that a lift is required to board wheelchairs and it's not great for buggies and older folk who struggle with steps.

Would Yutong, the current "favourite" coach supplier at the moment, benefit from producing a low-entry coach similar to the Plaxton Panther LE? I feel like these are the best of both worlds; the comfort of a coach, with the accessibility of a low-floor bus.

I asked about the Panther LE once before. The general consensus was that the lack of luggage space made them unviable for most long-distance coach work. My argument is that express commuter buses aren't going to be full of people lugging suitcases between Chesterfield and Sheffield for example.

The Panther LE was also problematic because it was tri-axle and wouldn't fit on certain routes. The general consensus was that a shorter version would compromise the seating capacity too much.

 

[Steve440]

There isn't really anything that fits the concept of a "dual-purpose" vehicle in this country anymore. Around here, services used to be operated by a mixture of vehicles with bus shells, but fitted with coach seats, or coaches that were modified with wider doors and destination equipment that could be operated on stage services.

Latterly we had the likes of the Plaxton Premier Interurban that Stagecoach introduced in the 90s, but that was before accessibility became a priority and the need to accommodate a wheelchair did away with the space that would previously have been occupied by a luggage pen.

The closest we have these days is the Yutong TCe12s that Stagecoach operates; they can't really be classed as having a full coach specification. However, there is still the problem that a lift is required to board wheelchairs and it's not great for buggies and older folk who struggle with steps.


The Panther LE was also problematic because it was tri-axle and wouldn't fit on certain routes. The general consensus was that a shorter version would compromise the seating capacity too much.

I don't know the technicalities but the existing ones are 53 seaters so removing two rows of seats would still allow 45 which compares well with most two axle vehicles.

 

[1D53]

The Irish completely have the right idea, both North and South of the border.

 

[Martin1988]

What about Greenline Services such as the one between London and Windsor?

Rewind 15-20 years and coaches were commonplace on those but nowadays buses have taken their place.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

I don't know the technicalities but the existing ones are 53 seaters so removing two rows of seats would still allow 45 which compares well with most two axle vehicles.

Would still probably be a metre longer than a 46-seat EvoRa so would still be unsuitable for many routes, there is a reason why 12-ish metres is still fairly much the standard maximum for service bus work. The 53-seater Panther LE's were 14.6m long to get 53-seats in, Stagecoach were focussed on the capacity of the coaches they were replacing in a solution that didn't need a lift but the length then became limiting. Between the higher spec seats and the higher rear end to give some luggage capacity and a more coach like experience you probably sacrifice 2 rows worth of seats for the capacity.

It is a big trade off, greater comfort makes accessibility more difficult - higher floors allow a better ride (bigger wheels and more room for suspension) but make it harder to board for everyone (not least wheelchairs) whilst more comfortable seats and larger and so restrict aisles (though 2-1 seating ameliorates this but significantly reduces capacity of the vehicle) and make it harder for many to get in and out of.

The low floor configuration is most suitable for most service applications as it is the best way of boarding and alighting passengers most widely (and parents with pushchairs is a major source of off-peak income for operators supporting the network significantly) and UK routes are comparatively intense and comprehensive compared to may other nations. You can argue that operators should be more willing to look at fitting higher spec interiors to basically bus bases but you do have to be prepared to sacrifice some capacity, Transdev have proved it can work on specific core corridors, but you do have to be prepared to put a lot of investment in time and money up front to be able to take advantage and there are a lot of routes in this category that just can't support that investment over any realistic timescale.

 

[Russel]

Some interesting responses here considering on this very forum I was told that Temsa Avenues that Arriva used on the long distance X93/X94 were perfectly acceptable.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Standerwick's "Gay Hostess"coaches from Blackpool to London.