Why should I trust rail travel?

[Merle Haggard]

You're not wrong about demand, however it's a very odd way to run a business. Most businesses with a huge demand would do whatever they could to cater for it, in order to seek to improve their profits.

Moreover, this is something any credible Government should be addressing. Our roads are overloaded, so why not seek to relieve congestion by providing more trains?

XC so often run short trains but longer trains require relatively little extra staffing and the platform space is generally already there, as is the track.

It seems a no brainer to seek to accommodate this demand, and you'd think any Givernment with any interest or competence in transport would provide encouragement to do so.

My bold

Longer trains require extra trains so incur higher lease, maintenance and fuel costs.

 

[35B]

It's a shame there is not willing to engage in discussion having ignored the questions. I'll take from the lack of reply that you want a perfect railway and no extra tax or rise in fares. Especially as you mention extremes sticking in our minds, implying you want to eradicate extremes ie all severe disruption

There really is no sense or value in discussing the issues on this level

I'm perfectly willing to engage in discussion - just not to affirm unreality.

I'd love a perfect railway without increases in fares or subsidy, but I'd also like world peace today.

My view about the averages is one about prioritisation - the old saw about "if it wasn't measured it didn't happen" applies here. We measure certain outcomes, and they don't give a rounded view of reality.

But the flip side is also true - that if we approach any discussion about poor service on the basis that our own personal experience is definitive, we can easily start drifting into the belief that "they" are making up the numbers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2026 ==

You're not wrong about demand, however it's a very odd way to run a business. Most businesses with a huge demand would do whatever they could to cater for it, in order to seek to improve their profits.

Moreover, this is something any credible Government should be addressing. Our roads are overloaded, so why not seek to relieve congestion by providing more trains?

XC so often run short trains but longer trains require relatively little extra staffing and the platform space is generally already there, as is the track.

It seems a no brainer to seek to accommodate this demand, and you'd think any Givernment with any interest or competence in transport would provide encouragement to do so.

Plenty of businesses use price or supply to choke demand, because meeting additional demand is disproportionately expensive relative to the cost of meeting it. It's an old bad habit of rail, and it's coming back.

There are many things that operators could do to deliver more efficiently, and they should do them - on XC, a good start would be having all seats available at all times (and the reasons why that doesn't happen have SFA to do with your OP). But as TOCs are not normal businesses, and government is more interested in managing cash than delivering results, the answers you seek are neither cheap nor simple - so not "no brainers" at all.

 

[Shrop]

There are many things that operators could do to deliver more efficiently, and they should do them - on XC, a good start would be having all seats available at all times (and the reasons why that doesn't happen have SFA to do with your OP). But as TOCs are not normal businesses, and government is more interested in managing cash than delivering results, the answers you seek are neither cheap nor simple - so not "no brainers" at all.

The no brainer bit was aimed partly at Government, who you might think would be pleased to find a way to make a reduction in pressure on road travel.

Other than that, do we want to spend our time seeking ways to achieve things, or would we rather be spending it finding excuses not to? Once again it depends on your perspective.

 

[Krokodil]

Their response was similar, it actually said there would be pathing concerns over the Menai Bridge, which would hold up trains bound for London! I did wonder how many London bound trains would be inconvenienced at nearly midnight coming out of Anglesey.

So what was their response when you wrote back and pointed out that there is no Up train within hours either side of the train you referred to?

And even if there were, why are trains /passengers bound for London more important than anyone else? If anything, given London’s public transport network, they are the ones least likely to be seriously inconvenienced by a delay.

Delaying a WCML-bound service (at a time that one of them actually runs of course) does sow chaos on a congested part of the network, to be fair.

 

[Shrop]

So what was their response when you wrote back and pointed out that there is no Up train within hours either side of the train you referred to?

I didn't think it was worth writing back since their responses clearly had little bearing on reality.

However, just out of interest and since I had a spare few minutes, I did write back a polite query on that very point. They didn't respond . I guess they thought they'd already answered the question.

So I concluded that Customer Services are no more competent than the companies they represent, seemingly made up of people from the same type of thinking.

What would you have done?

 

[wilsontown]

My bold

Longer trains require extra trains so incur higher lease, maintenance and fuel costs.

While this is generally true, in the case of XC they are already running the longer trains, but often with half the train locked out of use because of staffing constraints.

 

[Shrop]

While this is generally true, in the case of XC they are already running the longer trains, but often with half the train locked out of use because of staffing constraints.

That's a sure way to alienate customers. Provide perfectly functional carriages running exactly where and when people want to use them, but locking them out, and forcing them to stand in seriously overcrowded adjacent carriages instead.

It doesn't matter a jot what the reasons are, this will ALWAYS look bad and it makes the operating company appear woefully incompetent.

 

[35B]

That's a sure way to alienate customers. Provide perfectly functional carriages running exactly where and when people want to use them, but locking them out, and forcing them to stand in seriously overcrowded adjacent carriages instead.

It doesn't matter a jot what the reasons are, this will ALWAYS look bad and it makes the operating company appear woefully incompetent.

Absolutely, it does. But that is the reality of a situation 20+ years in the making through running short trains without connections, and now taken past the point of no return by a failure of industrial relations over how these units are to be staffed.

 

[Krokodil]

What would you have done?

I'd have asked them for specifics. I really hate being fed bovine excrement (I prefer it when companies be honest with me) so would have kept prodding until they either came up with an actual good reason that stands up to the slightest scrutiny, or conceded that things could have been handled better.

Out of interest, was your inbound train a TfW one or WMT? Did you tell the guard that you needed a connection?

 

[35B]

I'd have asked them for specifics. I really hate being fed bovine excrement (I prefer it when companies be honest with me) so would have kept prodding until they either came up with an actual good reason that stands up to the slightest scrutiny, or conceded that things could have been handled better.

Out of interest, was your inbound train a TfW one or WMT? Did you tell the guard that you needed a connection?

If I read @Shrop right, he was an observer rather than being affected. That has an obvious impact on the motivation of all to follow up

 

[dk1]

That's a sure way to alienate customers. Provide perfectly functional carriages running exactly where and when people want to use them, but locking them out, and forcing them to stand in seriously overcrowded adjacent carriages instead.

It doesn't matter a jot what the reasons are, this will ALWAYS look bad and it makes the operating company appear woefully incompetent.

I don’t think looking bad or woefully incompetent is something that bothers XC too much. They have frequently been described in far worse examples than those over the years.

 

[yorksrob]

That's a sure way to alienate customers. Provide perfectly functional carriages running exactly where and when people want to use them, but locking them out, and forcing them to stand in seriously overcrowded adjacent carriages instead.

It doesn't matter a jot what the reasons are, this will ALWAYS look bad and it makes the operating company appear woefully incompetent.

Yes, the optics are about as bad as they can be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

Absolutely, it does. But that is the reality of a situation 20+ years in the making through running short trains without connections, and now taken past the point of no return by a failure of industrial relations over how these units are to be staffed.

How about forming the Voyagers into longer units and making up the shortfall from hire-ins. The company would even get increased usage from bashers.

 

[Sonic1234]

That's a sure way to alienate customers.

It's the aim. They even say as much, press releases about fare rises going back to BR days have mentioned it's a way to manage demand and capacity.

The "problem" the railway has had is that demand seems to be more inelastic than would be expected.

Now add in DfT micromanagement, an ideology that the railway should pay its way, political inability to cut costs and a Government addicted to motoring taxes.....

 

[Harpo]

a Government addicted to motoring taxes.....

How else would the cost of infrastructure etc. get funded?

 

[Falcon1200]

Yes, I did make a complaint, but their response was that the 22.54 had to be released without further delay in order to avoid pathing problems in the Portsmouth area. This was even though my complaint suggested that pathing problems were unlikely at that time of night.

You were right of course to complain, and the reply was frankly pathetic; Given the level of disruption already caused by a 3 hour closure of the South Western main line a few more minutes at Eastleigh and perhaps beyond would have been utterly insignificant. One wonders what instructions (if any) station staff and traincrew at Eastleigh have, either standing or given on the day, for such situations. As well as helping already heavily delayed passengers in their way holding the connection would have saved the station staff hassle and the railway the cost of road transport!

 

[Shrop]

The sad conclusion I'm drawing here, is that almost no-one on the supply side of the rail industry, is particularly interested in providing a decent rail service.

Many, if not most staff, and similarly in rail management, are only there to earn a wage by being present during their contracted hours, they care little about passenger/customer service.

Of course there are some that do care, but they seem to be outnumbered by the automatons that don't. In fact the automatons possibly even laugh at those who care, labelling them enthusiasts or even train spotters.

In this thread we seem to have demonstrated that rail staff and management are adversarial towards each other, and customer services have little or no wish or ability to relate to reality either.

Meanwhile Government simply don't care, they pay lip service but it's not genuine, they'd rather pander to the car industry. As do the press, most of whom really are petrol headed reporters who love to bash rail travel at every opportunity.

I'd love to be wrong, and I challenge anyone to demonstrate why I might be.

Meanwhile I have another XC to look forward to tomorrow when our cruise ends in Southampton. I can hardly wait!

 

[Harpo]

Meanwhile I have another XC to look forward to tomorrow when our cruise ends in Southampton. I can hardly wait!

Just be aware that XC is mostly 2 hourly tomorrow as Reading to Basingstoke is closed, so you’ll have a run via Havant & Guildford and the infrequent connections from SR to WR (old money!) at Reading.

Good luck tomorrow Shrop - I hope your train’s a runner.

 

[Jimini]

Just be aware that XC is mostly 2 hourly tomorrow as Reading to Basingstoke is closed, so you’ll have a run via Havant & Guildford and the infrequent connections from SR to WR (old money!) at Reading.

Good luck tomorrow Shrop - I hope your train’s a runner.

Good point, that. Also worth noting that only one of the northbound Southampton services was a double unit, last Sunday. Bet the others were, ahem, cosy

 

[Shrop]

Just be aware that XC is mostly 2 hourly tomorrow as Reading to Basingstoke is closed, so you’ll have a run via Havant & Guildford and the infrequent connections from SR to WR (old money!) at Reading.

Good luck tomorrow Shrop - I hope your train’s a runner.

Thanks . Yes, we're expecting to go via Guildford, that was forecast several weeks ago.

At the same time, we booked Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury which was then a train, but when I checked a few days before leaving home, it had changed into a replacement bus.

This is not ideal when we have large suitcases, and if we'd known this when booking the trip, we might have chosen another route altogether. But I can't see XC giving us a refund for something that's happening on the TfW part of the trip, and even if they did, new tickets purchased weeks later would be a lot more expensive

And this, on the return part of our rail journey is before we've even started out yet.

Maybe the driver from tomorrow morning's train will become unavailable later today, and XC will know about it but won't be able go provide anyone else. Then we'll all be stuck in Southampton tomorrow, many hours after XC learned about the problem.

Am I cynical? Well I do have precedent for fearing this, as in the reason for starting his thread!

 

[Mike Machin]

I'm still interested in rail as I have been an enthusiast all my life, but the rail services on the routes I used to use (GWR Portsmouth-Cardiff and Cross-Country from Southampton to the Midlands) I gave up on rail entirely and use my electric car. In fact, sadly I don't ever consider travelling by train as for me it no longer figures as a viable mode of transport if I am planning a journey anywhere.

 

[yorksrob]

Funnily enough, considering the bad press it's had over the decades, my least stressful, most comfortable and better value journeys tend to be the ones with Northern Rail. I use them a lot and they do tend to get you there, often in a 158, which is still one of the best modern trains there is.

 

[dk1]

Funnily enough, considering the bad press it's had over the decades, my least stressful, most comfortable and better value journeys tend to be the ones with Northern Rail. I use them a lot and they do tend to get you there.

And Northern are reported to be seeing strong growth in passenger numbers on many routes as are Cross Country. Just goes to show that all publicity is good publicity even if it’s predominantly negative.

 

[yorksrob]

And Northern are reported to be seeing strong growth in passenger numbers on many routes as are Cross Country. Just goes to show that all publicity is good publicity even if it’s predominantly negative.

Northern does have the advantage of serving some of the most beautiful places in the world as well.

 

[dk1]

Northern does have the advantage of serving some of the most beautiful places in the world as well.

Yorkshire or Lancashire?

 

[yorksrob]

Yorkshire or Lancashire?

Both, obviously

 

[Krokodil]

often in a 158, which is still one of the best modern trains there is.

I wasn't thinking that when I was sweltering in a 159 yesterday.

 

[yorksrob]

I wasn't thinking that when I was sweltering in a 159 yesterday.

They're great when the windows are open !

 

[stuu]

The sad conclusion I'm drawing here, is that almost no-one on the supply side of the rail industry, is particularly interested in providing a decent rail service.

Many, if not most staff, and similarly in rail management, are only there to earn a wage by being present during their contracted hours, they care little about passenger/customer service.

Do you expect people in every industry to be enthusiasts about that industry? And if not why would rail be any different?

 

[Shrop]

Do you expect people in every industry to be enthusiasts about that industry? And if not why would rail be any different?

Well I had quite a variety of jobs over my working life, and I can honestly say I was pretty enthusiastic about every single one of them.

I have a lifelong enthusiasm for railways, and I still believe that they could and should serve the public well. I struggle to see why staff and management in the rail industry should regard their jobs as a chore, however a good many seem to, perhaps yourself included?

 

[35B]

Well I had quite a variety of jobs over my working life, and I can honestly say I was pretty enthusiastic about every single one of them.

I have a lifelong enthusiasm for railways, and I still believe that they could and should serve the public well. I struggle to see why staff and management in the rail industry should regard their jobs as a chore, however a good many seem to, perhaps yourself included?

How typical were you at those places of work?