Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[Dwarfer1979]

Thanks for sharing, so the small lots that were meant to help SMEs have gone from a mid-sized group to a multinational.

And because they drove all the small operators out in the original franchising there weren't really any true independents in the bid list. Warrington was the smallest operator on there, Huyton Travel is owned by a big multi-national.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does this type of franchise letting have the unfortunate effect of drivers having to TUPE across more regularly than they did when privatisation ruled the roost?

 

[mangad]

Thanks for sharing, so the small lots that were meant to help SMEs have gone from a mid-sized group to a multinational.

If you scroll down the page on the the bid, it breaks things down by how many bids by "SMEs" there were. Lot 1 they say 1 bid, whereas Lot 2 had three bids.

I'm interested to know how they're defining SME in this case. I can only think it's done on the basis of the entity bidding rather than who owns the entity. If we look at Lot 2, who are those SMEs? I suspect it's Huylton, Warrington (obviously) and First Manchester. And that on Lot 1 it's Rossendale on the basis that Rosso's been defunct since Bee Network.

I assume this is based on procurement rules but I think this shows the whole challenge with helping SMEs if there's only actually one company we would all likely class as an SME on the whole list in the first place.


As an aside, something I have been wondering about for a while is how all this is going to work with vehicles with all this. Diamond have a very new fleet. I assume given small franchise operators supply and own the vehicles that they're under no obligation to sell them on to a new operator. But Go North West now need more vehicles. So what are those vehicles, where are they going to come from, and what state will they be in?

 

[Class 466]

If you scroll down the page on the the bid, it breaks things down by how many bids by "SMEs" there were. Lot 1 they say 1 bid, whereas Lot 2 had three bids.

I'm interested to know how they're defining SME in this case. I can only think it's done on the basis of the entity bidding rather than who owns the entity. If we look at Lot 2, who are those SMEs? I suspect it's Huylton, Warrington (obviously) and First Manchester. And that on Lot 1 it's Rossendale on the basis that Rosso's been defunct since Bee Network.

I assume this is based on procurement rules but I think this shows the whole challenge with helping SMEs if there's only actually one company we would all likely class as an SME on the whole list in the first place.


As an aside, something I have been wondering about for a while is how all this is going to work with vehicles with all this. Diamond have a very new fleet. I assume given small franchise operators supply and own the vehicles that they're under no obligation to sell them on to a new operator. But Go North West now need more vehicles. So what are those vehicles, where are they going to come from, and what state will they be in?

First is anything but an SME! Unless their gravel patch in Rochdale warrants that title.

 

[mangad]

First is anything but an SME! Unless their gravel patch in Rochdale warrants that title.

Like I said, I can only think it's done on the basis of the entity bidding. First Group is huge. But First Manchester Ltd is not a big operation. If there are 3 SMEs on the list for Lot 2, who can they be? it's a process of deduction.

• Arriva Merseyside Limited - no. Too big right now due to its operations in Merseyside.
• Greater Manchester Buses South Limited - like Arriva, a definite no.
• Go North West - again no.
• Diamond Bus (North West) Limited - possible but feels unlikely. Also if they are classed as an SME they have to be the sole SME on Lot 1. In which case, why would Rosso not be an SME? So I am saying no.
• First Manchester Limited - it may be owned by a big group, but First Manchester is small so it's a candidate.
• Huyton Travel Limited - similar to First Manchester, it's owned by a big group (although not that big in the UK) but in itself it's small.
• Warrington Borough Transport Limited - the only one we can look at and say without doubt, is classed as an SME.

And this comes down to the whole crux of the "SMEs being driven out by franchising problem". If you're First Manchester and you're owned by a big multi-national, and your subsidiary is being classed as an SME for bidding purposes, then it feels like the definition of SME being used is very wrong. But where does that definition come from?

 

[mayneway]

Go Northwest has been chosen as the preferred bidder for the refranchising of the Tranche 1 small franchises winning LOT 1: Bolton, Bury and Farnworth and LOT 2: Leigh and Atherton.

The unsuccessful bidders were: LOT 1:

Arriva Merseyside Limited
Diamond Bus (North West) Limited
First Manchester Limited
Rossendale Transport Limited
Greater Manchester Buses South Limited

LOT 2:

Arriva Merseyside Limited
Diamond Bus (North West) Limited
First Manchester Limited
Greater Manchester Buses South Limited
Huyton Travel Limited
Warrington Borough Transport Limited

The standstill period will end 3 Aug 2026 and the contract will run from 7 March 2027 to 18 Aug 2030 with a possible extension to 18 Aug 2032
Contract value of £44.361m for LOT 1 and £32.437m for LOT 2 including VAT.
LOT 1 has a PVR of 28 and LOT 2 has a PVR of 21.

These routes are currently mainly run by Diamond Bus North West

Service 521 in LOT 1 and Service 553 in LOT 2 will start later on 19th September 2027.
https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/069281-2026?origin=SearchResults&p=1

Very interesting.
Firstly with Diamond loosing the work will that make their Bolton depot virtually useless?

The list of failed bidders makes interesting reading. Firstly that Arriva are bidding for work. Pretty sure they announced they originally wanted no part in the Manchester franchising.
Rossendale is also an interesting name, it’s obviously a dormant arm of Trandev, but very clever to use the Rossendale name over Transdev.

And Warrington buses also bidding on the work, presumably they would order additional electrics to operate these services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is the Warrington Borough Transport Limited not an entity that could survive as at present with its existing routes?

 

[mayneway]

It is pretty surprising Go North West have won these contracts given their performance at Bolton and Wigan.
I’m sure the drivers that stayed with Diamond left Bolton won’t be too happy at the news.

 

[Deerfold]

The list of failed bidders makes interesting reading. Firstly that Arriva are bidding for work. Pretty sure they announced they originally wanted no part in the Manchester franchising.

Fairly sure that was just because they were busy being sold at the time.

Even if that wasn't the reason, they do have a new owner now, with different priorities.

 

[mayneway]

Fairly sure that was just because they were busy being sold at the time.

Even if that wasn't the reason, they do have a new owner now, with different priorities.

You could be right but I seem to remember at the time it came across as more of a protest statement that they wouldn’t be bidding on any of the contracts or selling any of their vehicles into the vehicle pool.
Would have been interesting to see them return to Manchester.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Like I said, I can only think it's done on the basis of the entity bidding. First Group is huge. But First Manchester Ltd is not a big operation. If there are 3 SMEs on the list for Lot 2, who can they be? it's a process of deduction.

• Arriva Merseyside Limited - no. Too big right now due to its operations in Merseyside.
• Greater Manchester Buses South Limited - like Arriva, a definite no.
• Go North West - again no.
• Diamond Bus (North West) Limited - possible but feels unlikely. Also if they are classed as an SME they have to be the sole SME on Lot 1. In which case, why would Rosso not be an SME? So I am saying no.
• First Manchester Limited - it may be owned by a big group, but First Manchester is small so it's a candidate.
• Huyton Travel Limited - similar to First Manchester, it's owned by a big group (although not that big in the UK) but in itself it's small.
• Warrington Borough Transport Limited - the only one we can look at and say without doubt, is classed as an SME.

And this comes down to the whole crux of the "SMEs being driven out by franchising problem". If you're First Manchester and you're owned by a big multi-national, and your subsidiary is being classed as an SME for bidding purposes, then it feels like the definition of SME being used is very wrong. But where does that definition come from?

It is probably Diamond, as a privately owned business, for both (Rosso being owned by Transdev shouldn't qualify but Rotala probably do still in this categorisation) then for LOT 2 add Warrington & probably Huyton has snuck in because their owners have little business in the UK currently so the UK legal entity is still small enough to sit under the SME threshold though I don't think they should qualify as such if you have a foreign owner of that size.

 

[paddyb6]

Is there a source that shows the routes included within each lot?

 

[GCH100]

The other issue although not directly route related is where Go North West will operate all these extra vehicles from, as Bolton is nearing capacity, Bolton Nelson Street is for work in Bury and contract schools in North Manchester/Rochdale/Bury and Wigan is due to move to a much smaller site elsewhere in the town within two to three years as Bryn is to be used to expand the South Lancs Industrial Estate. So presume further additional premises will need to be found, wether that is the current Diamond Depot in Bolton or a new site elsewhere that should be interesting. Also what happens to the newish fleet of ADL E200's that Diamond Bus have built up, do these pass to GO North West or go back to the leasing company based on the fact that they aren't electric.

The services under the franchises last time are as follows

Bolton Small - 129,507, 521, 525, 526, 533, 535, 537, 541, 544 and school services 907 and 925
Leigh/Atherton Small - 516, 583, 584, 588, 590, 594, 596, 597 and school service 984 it is also possible that small franchise Wigan East services 126 and 132 could be added into the Leigh/Atherton small franchises. In any case the Wigan small franchises will probably be announced shortly as they commenced at the same time last time.

 

[mangad]

The other issue although not directly route related is where Go North West will operate all these extra vehicles from, as Bolton is nearing capacity, Bolton Nelson Street is for work in Bury and contract schools in North Manchester/Rochdale/Bury and Wigan is due to move to a much smaller site elsewhere in the town within two to three years as Bryn is to be used to expand the South Lancs Industrial Estate

They can't use Wigan as it's a large franchise depot and can't be used for anything other than the services linked to that depot.

 

[Leyland Bus]

The other issue although not directly route related is where Go North West will operate all these extra vehicles from, as Bolton is nearing capacity, Bolton Nelson Street is for work in Bury and contract schools in North Manchester/Rochdale/Bury and Wigan is due to move to a much smaller site elsewhere in the town within two to three years as Bryn is to be used to expand the South Lancs Industrial Estate. So presume further additional premises will need to be found, wether that is the current Diamond Depot in Bolton or a new site elsewhere that should be interesting. Also what happens to the newish fleet of ADL E200's that Diamond Bus have built up, do these pass to GO North West or go back to the leasing company based on the fact that they aren't electric.

The services under the franchises last time are as follows

Bolton Small - 129,507, 521, 525, 526, 533, 535, 537, 541, 544 and school services 907 and 925
Leigh/Atherton Small - 516, 583, 584, 588, 590, 594, 596, 597 and school service 984 it is also possible that small franchise Wigan East services 126 and 132 could be added into the Leigh/Atherton small franchises. In any case the Wigan small franchises will probably be announced shortly as they commenced at the same time last time.

They will likely operate from Nelson St.

 

[Mollman]

Is the Warrington Borough Transport Limited not an entity that could survive as at present with its existing routes?

Yes but they have operated tendered services in GM before

 

[mayneway]

They will likely operate from Nelson St.

A former colleague of mine who does agency work commented only last week at how big Nelson Street was for the number of buses working from there so it would make perfect sense to run everything from there.

Makes me wonder what Diamond will do with their Bolton base as I believe it’s also used as the training centre.

 

[Leyland Bus]

A former colleague of mine who does agency work commented only last week at how big Nelson Street was for the number of buses working from there so it would make perfect sense to run everything from there.

Makes me wonder what Diamond will do with their Bolton base as I believe it’s also used as the training centre.

Likewise with the "new depot" they had planned... I'd imagine all that has gone in the bin now, perhaps they should have waited??

 

[Andyh82]

I suppose this is only the start of it. Operators are going to be constantly losing work, gaining work, having to TUPE staff around, moving stuff like head office functions and training schools.

For the small operators you could in theory lose all your work, and have none, and then gain some work not long afterwards

In London it’s all much more gradual, and you generally aren’t losing and gaining depots

 

[mangad]

For the small operators you could in theory lose all your work, and have none, and then gain some work not long afterwards

For any smaller operator to stand any chance in the franchise world they would need to be diversified in their operations. Someone like Stotts who only did buses by the end just couldn't survive this kind of situation. A company like Belle Vue who have their fingers in many pies would stand a chance.

And having such a short contract length (3 years plus the option of 2 more) does make me wonder if TfGM would be better off supplying the vehicles. Diamond now potentially moving a load of quite young Bee Network spec vehicles to its other subsidiaries really does not feel optimal. If they were any old buses that would be different.

 

[Pinus contorta]

I suppose this is only the start of it. Operators are going to be constantly losing work, gaining work, having to TUPE staff around, moving stuff like head office functions and training schools.

For the small operators you could in theory lose all your work, and have none, and then gain some work not long afterwards

In London it’s all much more gradual, and you generally aren’t losing and gaining depots

Has that concept of it being more gradual in London been explained up thread? How come?

 

[Andyh82]

I’m thinking someone like Vision Bus, who could in theory lose their tranche 1 schools, end up with loads of surplus vehicles and a depot location that isn’t optimum for the work they mostly run in Lancashire now, so sell the vehicles, and then win some tranche 2 schools not long afterwards which they then have to source new vehicles for.

 

[MCRTransitYT]

Has that concept of it being more gradual in London been explained up thread? How come?

The contracts are individual routes or a group of 2 routes occasionally, unlike Manchester where it's franchises with usually more than at least 10 routes (I know there are less in some). Therefore a lot of buses and routes have to be moved. Additionally, the contracts in London typically last 7+ years

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The contracts are individual routes or a group of 2 routes occasionally, unlike Manchester where it's franchises with usually more than at least 10 routes (I know there are less in some). Therefore a lot of buses and routes have to be moved. Additionally, the contracts in London typically last 7+ years

One might well wonder how much the Manchester organisation learnt from its attempt to use London franchise methodology?

 

[Deerfold]

One might well wonder how much the Manchester organisation learnt from its attempt to use London franchise methodology?

When did they attempt that?

 

[mayneway]

Likewise with the "new depot" they had planned... I'd imagine all that has gone in the bin now, perhaps they should have waited??

I’d forgotten about that!
Would be very interesting if they ever lost the Eccles work given what they spent buying the old Goodwins depot.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2026 ==

For the small operators you could in theory lose all your work, and have none, and then gain some work not long afterwards

Nothing has really changed in that respect. Even bother franchising operators could, and did loose most of their tendered work resulting in no or little work to go at.

MCT lost all of their Oldham and Tameside work at the same point making it not cost effective to keep the depot open. It was a case of registering some of the work commercially or closing up shop.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2026 ==

For any smaller operator to stand any chance in the franchise world they would need to be diversified in their operations. Someone like Stotts who only did buses by the end just couldn't survive this kind of situation. A company like Belle Vue who have their fingers in many pies would stand a chance.

Stotts could have gone for some of the smaller contracts or diversified but the owner wanted to retire.
The beauty about the the previous tendering system was operators like Stotts could cherry pick what work they wanted. Mr Stott had no interest in evening or Sunday work so bidding on a smaller contract would never have worked for them.

They had previously operated private coach hire/tours and closed door school contracts so had they really wanted too, they could have picked up this kind of work again.

Had there been a small school contract that was just schools in Tameside/Oldham, Similar to what Vision won in Bolton, they would have gone for it but I’m fairly sure it was grouped with regular service work.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When did they attempt that?

In the "learning period" prior to bringing back bus regulation to Greater Manchester.

 

[Deerfold]

In the "learning period" prior to bringing back bus regulation to Greater Manchester.

So, not an actual attempt?

 

[Leedsbusman]

And because they drove all the small operators out in the original franchising there weren't really any true independents in the bid list. Warrington was the smallest operator on there, Huyton Travel is owned by a big multi-national.

Well it’s owned by Kelsian through Tower which isn’t a particularly big player.
The bid award lists one bid for lot 1 from an SME and three for lot 2. SME doesn’t not simply equate to family ownership - it’s based on turnover and employees with ‘medium’ having up to 250 employees and up to €50m revenue. Getting three SME bids suggests there is interest from the medium end of sector.

 

[Simon75]

Well it’s owned by Kelsian through Tower which isn’t a particularly big player.
The bid award lists one bid for lot 1 from an SME and three for lot 2. SME doesn’t not simply equate to family ownership - it’s based on turnover and employees with ‘medium’ having up to 250 employees and up to €50m revenue. Getting three SME bids suggests there is interest from the medium end of sector.

Thought they are still large Australian company ...

Kelsian Group - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org