Things which cause bus boarding/alighting to be slower now than 40 years ago.

[philthetube]

I was one of the last conductors in the country (outside London) 46 years ago so the lack of conductors in not relevant to this thread.

Wheelchairs are one thing which slow things down but I don't think anyone would complain about them.

Alighting the biggest thing which has changed is the relatively new habit of all passengers ringing the bell then waiting until the bus stops before getting leaving their seats, even teens coming down from upstairs at the back. Going back to when Grey Green ran the 24 route in London their deckers only had an upstairs bell push at the top of the stairs.

Another thing which affects alighting, but also boarding is the distance infirm passengers have to walk to reach seats, going back to when I was driving seats on the drivers side used to run all the way to the cab with a luggage pen over the front wheels on the nearside.

Electronic ticket machines are a big slowdown, if anything people paying by card slow things more than cash payers because of the time taken for the card to be presented and read, cash itself is not a factor in slow boarding. A mechanical Almex or TIM were far quicker to operate than a ticketer machine, helped by the fact that the drivers knew virtually all the fares and did not have to scroll to find stops on machines.

another factor is people not having fares, passed ready when the bus arrives, although this always happened it is far more common now.

 

[Fletcj10]

Alighting the biggest thing which has changed is the relatively new habit of all passengers ringing the bell then waiting until the bus stops before getting leaving their seats, even teens coming down from upstairs at the back. Going back to when Grey Green ran the 24 route in London their deckers only had an upstairs bell push at the top of the stairs.

Stay seated until the bus stops is what's reinforced by many operators, i personally deal with the the back end of this everyday and I've seen what can be done if you stand up before the bus stops, so this is the safer option however it's not a rule so if people are doing it then either they have experience to what happens or they just stay as the bus has told them to.

Electronic ticket machines are a big slowdown, if anything people paying by card slow things more than cash payers because of the time taken for the card to be presented and read, cash itself is not a factor in slow boarding. A mechanical Almex or TIM were far quicker to operate than a ticketer machine, helped by the fact that the drivers knew virtually all the fares and did not have to scroll to find stops on machines.

With the way technology is going cash on buses will continue to lose favor over contactless or e-tickets, not to mention with e-tickets some company's discount these fares to the cash/contact fare on the bus making it more cost effective, tap on-tap off also plays a part also, however i agree to a point with the statement and my observations are not the machines but the people, getting on the bus then going into their endless pit of a bag or unlocking their phone and putting the code in wrong as they are under pressure to get on, this for me is what slows it down if everyone had a ticket ready or cash ready when they step onto the bus it would be better/quicker.

 

[philthetube]

Agree with all your points, the one thing I would add is that cash was much quicker because as people approached the driver they would state their destination and the ticket would be out as the cash arrived, this cannot be done with card payments.

 

[Ballyheigue]

Bus services have become tediously slow because of passengers insisting on waiting until the bus stops before getting up, I don't know what's wrong with them as back in the better days you learned how to walk downstairs as the bus was moving, you learned to hang on when the bus braked sharply and so on. My view is simple, if passengers have to remain seated until the bus stops, what about standing passengers?

 

[johncrossley]

Stay seated until the bus stops is what's reinforced by many operators, i personally deal with the the back end of this everyday and I've seen what can be done if you stand up before the bus stops, so this is the safer option however it's not a rule so if people are doing it then either they have experience to what happens or they just stay as the bus has told them to.

You can't operated double deckers with a rule like this as it increases dwell time ridiculously. The only option available with this rule is multi-door articulated buses.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Bus services have become tediously slow because of passengers insisting on waiting until the bus stops before getting up, I don't know what's wrong with them as back in the better days you learned how to walk downstairs as the bus was moving, you learned to hang on when the bus braked sharply and so on. My view is simple, if passengers have to remain seated until the bus stops, what about standing passengers?

My partner always remains seated until the bus stops on double deckers as previously had fallen down the stairs as the bus accelerated quickly when she was walking down to get off.

Standing passengers are different as they are usually standing still and holding a pole, not walking.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The move from conductor to one person operation and the removal of open rear platforms are two obvious examples.

Admittedly rear platform buses weren't accessible to wheelchair users, however, and it wasn't until the 1990s that low floor buses started to be introduced in London.

 

[johncrossley]

My partner always remains seated until the bus stops on double deckers as previously had fallen down the stairs as the bus accelerated quickly when she was walking down to get off.

Standing passengers are different as they are usually standing still and holding a pole, not walking.

That shows that double deckers are useless. It takes too long for wait for everyone to come down from upstairs.

 

[Djgr]

That shows that double deckers are useless. It takes too long for wait for everyone to come down from upstairs.

Not really. It shows that those less nimble on their feet should sit downstairs, which is what happens.

 

[The exile]

The “tap off” element of TOTO - especially where fares are capped anyway. Inevitably it’s the first person getting off who realises they need to tap off and starts looking for their card (which then doesn’t register) once the bus stops. Queue of people behind all waiting to get off; queue of people all waiting to have four or five attempts to get a machine to read their cards. Lets push off-bus sales (how about requiring all retailers with over a certain floor-space nationally to house terminals for a start) and remove the cap from on bus sales (once there is an adequate network). Bring back inspectors and you can have multi- door boarding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The “tap off” element of TOTO - especially where fares are capped anyway. Inevitably it’s the first person getting off who realises they need to tap off and starts looking for their card (which then doesn’t register) once the bus stops. Queue of people behind all waiting to get off; queue of people all waiting to have four or five attempts to get a machine to read their cards. Lets push off-bus sales (how about requiring all retailers with over a certain floor-space nationally to house terminals for a start) and remove the cap from on bus sales (once there is an adequate network). Bring back inspectors and you can have multi- door boarding.

If we can get a consensus on whether the flat fare cap becomes permanent, then you can do tap on without tap off. In London that is faster* than Routemaster operation was when combined with dual door.

TOTO as a whole is faster than buying a ticket, though. You may lose a little time for alighting but you gain significantly for boarding.

* Assuming people behaved and used bus stops correctly - you can't really bring back open platform.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

My partner always remains seated until the bus stops on double deckers as previously had fallen down the stairs as the bus accelerated quickly when she was walking down to get off.

Standing passengers are different as they are usually standing still and holding a pole, not walking.

I would say modern straight staircases make it harder. The old style spiral ones meant you didn't fall far when the bus lurched, you just bounced off the wall.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

Agree with all your points, the one thing I would add is that cash was much quicker because as people approached the driver they would state their destination and the ticket would be out as the cash arrived, this cannot be done with card payments.

Cash is quicker when exact change is used. I'd say it's about the same if change has to be given. Germany in some areas used to take that seriously enough to have automatic change dispensers. That, where cash is being paid, is an upside of the £2 scheme - almost everyone paying cash has correct change. Make it £2.10 and you likely lose that, make it £3 and I think fivers are more likely to appear.

What also helps there is bus companies showing fares at stops and not treating them as some kind of state secret. I have time to count out correct change at the stop if I know what the fare is and if it has changed and if so what to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

Electronic ticket machines are a big slowdown, if anything people paying by card slow things more than cash payers because of the time taken for the card to be presented and read, cash itself is not a factor in slow boarding.

It very much is if change has to be given. That usually adds two or three seconds. These add up when you're boarding a lot of people at a lot of stops. That's one reason why some bus companies had exact change schemes (the others being staff pilfering and making the money inaccessible so staff were safer from robbery).

 

[johncrossley]

Not really. It shows that those less nimble on their feet should sit downstairs, which is what happens.

There are very few seats downstairs nowadays. Almost every effort is made to increase dwell times. Compare boarding times of a single door double decker with driver payment waiting for everyone to come down from upstairs after they waited for the bus to come to a complete halt to a typical city bus in, say, Basel.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Not really. It shows that those less nimble on their feet should sit downstairs, which is what happens.

My partner is very nimble on her feet, much more than me - I'd say it shows that sometimes you just can't anticipate the driver is going to stomp on the gas just as you descend the stairs!

 

[PeterC]

I would say modern straight staircases make it harder. The old style spiral ones meant you didn't fall far when the bus lurched, you just bounced off the wall.

Very much so. On an RT or RM in London I could be on the platform before the bus stopped without any problem. On a modern bus I usually walk to the top of the stairs just before it comes to a halt.

 

[speedy1]

Bus services have become tediously slow because of passengers insisting on waiting until the bus stops before getting up, I don't know what's wrong with them as back in the better days you learned how to walk downstairs as the bus was moving, you learned to hang on when the bus braked sharply and so on. My view is simple, if passengers have to remain seated until the bus stops, what about standing passengers?

Didn't buses accelerate slower back in the good old days? Less chance of being jolted. Perhaps brakes weren't as good too

 

[BuhSnarf]

There are very few seats downstairs nowadays. Almost every effort is made to increase dwell times. Compare boarding times of a single door double decker with driver payment waiting for everyone to come down from upstairs after they waited for the bus to come to a complete halt to a typical city bus in, say, Basel.

The reduction of seats downstairs is to have more space for disabilities and also buggies/prams. It does allow (when these aren't being used) for more standing space which reduces dwell time as they can "just get off."

However, is dwell time really an issue? It seems to be a really minor point compared to all the other reasons why a bus might be late (traffic, roadworks...)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Good lord... How many times are we going to have this discussion? I can almost predict the same arguments and from the same people.

• Europe is much better (cites random examples)
• We shouldn't have cash and fares should be managed off bus - anyone with cash is too poor and those sort of people shouldn't be encouraged
• Double deckers should be banned and we should have multi doored bendy buses with open boarding

Of course, we absolutely ignore that London bus speeds have fallen 8.3 mph because of removal of bus priority, removal of capacity for active travel (cycling, walking). Across the country, you could do a little to improve dwell times but it's not the bigger problem.

*** For those unfamiliar with the forum, these are subjects that certain posters return to with almost indecent regularity. My comments above relate to many, many posts on previous threads that have been made over several years, covering old ground with no new insight. I sincerely trust this clarifies any confusion ***

 

[py_megapixel]

TOTO as a whole is faster than buying a ticket, though. You may lose a little time for alighting but you gain significantly for boarding.

Based on Sheffield, the only place I have experience with TOTO, passengers seem nervous to use it and don't understand how it works. I have seen countless exchanges where drivers try to explain that passengers need to tap off but can't get it across, or where passengers get confused because they tap on and the machine doesn't print a ticket.

Passengers also sometimes try to tap onto the Stagecoach buses and then get confused when it doesn't work, holding up the bus while the driver explains. (First and Stagecoach are so hopeless at coordination that we've ended up with TOTO that works on First buses but not Stagecoach ones, even though in many cases they are running the same routes!)

Each of these sorts of interactions takes much than a regular ticket sale, eating into the benefit of TOTO quite considerably.

 

[markymark2000]

Alighting the biggest thing which has changed is the relatively new habit of all passengers ringing the bell then waiting until the bus stops before getting leaving their seats, even teens coming down from upstairs at the back.

This really winds me up. But it's not helped by bus operators being so scared of any claims being made, that they are overprotective. I've been on some buses lately whereby if you press the bell the announcement system tells you to stay seated.

The “tap off” element of TOTO - especially where fares are capped anyway. Inevitably it’s the first person getting off who realises they need to tap off and starts looking for their card (which then doesn’t register) once the bus stops. Queue of people behind all waiting to get off; queue of people all waiting to have four or five attempts to get a machine to read their cards. Lets push off-bus sales (how about requiring all retailers with over a certain floor-space nationally to house terminals for a start) and remove the cap from on bus sales (once there is an adequate network). Bring back inspectors and you can have multi- door boarding.

100% agree. And it's something that the 'TOTO should be the only valid payment method' people on the forum need to learn. Literally any time saved at boarding stage, is instead then spent faffing around at alighting. Whether that be the tap off machine being stupidly slow, or the driver changing trips on the ticket machine meaning tap off doesn't work. Or people being unsure with the system generally. I'm yet to see any evidence to show that TOTO is actually quicker overall or over the course of the day (for people using TOTO for day tickets). All claims I've seen so far relate specifically to the boarding stage and everyone buries their heads in the sand and refuses to see the additional time spent alighting or over the day.

TOTO as a whole is faster than buying a ticket, though. You may lose a little time for alighting but you gain significantly for boarding.

For a one off transaction such as a single there is no actual time benefit in the end using TOTO. By the time you take into account tap on, tap off, tap on, tap off versus slower initial transaction but alight with no time penalty, board with a very quick qr scan, alight with no time penalty (and repeat), over the course of the day, TOTO is slower.

 

[johncrossley]

However, is dwell time really an issue? It seems to be a really minor point compared to all the other reasons why a bus might be late (traffic, roadworks...)

Arguably buses have no right to demand better road conditions if they waste time themselves. The long dwell times on the Cambridgeshire busway are obscene, considering how much public money has been spent on removing the traffic issue.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Good lord... How many times are we going to have this discussion? I can almost predict the same arguments and from the same people.

• Europe is much better (cites random examples)
• We shouldn't have cash and fares should be managed off bus - anyone with cash is too poor and those sort of people shouldn't be encouraged
• Double deckers should be banned and we should have multi doored bendy buses with open boarding

Of course, we absolutely ignore that London bus speeds have fallen 8.3 mph because of removal of bus priority, removal of capacity for active travel (cycling, walking). Across the country, you could do a little to improve dwell times but it's not the bigger problem.

Absolutely! There's plenty of examples where Europe is just as bad, especially if you go outside the large cities but of course most British experience is in the main cities - I imagine there are people in other countries touting England public transport as amazing because they experienced TfL only.

Based on Sheffield, the only place I have experience with TOTO, passengers seem nervous to use it and don't understand how it works. I have seen countless exchanges where drivers try to explain that passengers need to tap off but can't get it across, or where passengers get confused because they tap on and the machine doesn't print a ticket.

Passengers also sometimes try to tap onto the Stagecoach buses and then get confused when it doesn't work, holding up the bus while the driver explains. (First and Stagecoach are so hopeless at coordination that we've ended up with TOTO that works on First buses but not Stagecoach ones, even though in many cases they are running the same routes!)

Each of these sorts of interactions takes much than a regular ticket sale, eating into the benefit of TOTO quite considerably.

New technology is always going to take time to embed, I remember working in retail at the dawn of contactless and there was so much confusion about when they can and can't tap etc. etc. Over time people become used to it and this only speeds up once TOTO is accepted across the board - for example it's much more embedded in Leicester where all operators use it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

Arguably buses have no right to demand better road conditions if they waste time themselves. The long dwell times on the Cambridgeshire busway are obscene, considering how much public money has been spent on removing the traffic issue.

Really? I spent a few days on the busway last year and the dwell times weren't particularly bad from what I experienced. The main issues I found were the awful speed restrictions and then the crazy traffic in Cambridge town centre plus then the ridiculously long windy end of the route out towards Huntingdon causing the biggest delays.

 

[johncrossley]

Really? I spent a few days on the busway last year and the dwell times weren't particularly bad from what I experienced. The main issues I found were the awful speed restrictions and then the crazy traffic in Cambridge town centre plus then the ridiculously long windy end of the route out towards Huntingdon causing the biggest delays.

So just *slightly* bad then! If you are used to the relatively fast boarding in London (which is not as fast as other places in Europe) then you really notice it when lots of people keep buying £3 tickets from the driver. It makes a hell of a difference. It should be just a case of tapping the card and sitting down.

I think we need a survey of boarding times so we can settle this debate once and for all. Maybe I'll start a new thread so that people can log the boarding times at each stop on their travels.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Arguably buses have no right to demand better road conditions if they waste time themselves. The long dwell times on the Cambridgeshire busway are obscene, considering how much public money has been spent on removing the traffic issue.

Completely agreed. Whining about issues out of their control but an unwillingness to address those issues within their control (by pushing TOTO harder and using dual door buses) just typifies the attitude of the industry.

Ten seconds per stop on a route with thirty stops is five minutes. That's significant.

 

[The exile]

TOTO as a whole is faster than buying a ticket, though. You may lose a little time for alighting but you gain significantly for boarding

Having multiple people all taking multiple attempts to tap off has a significant effect on boarding time as well!
The kinds of ticket readers I’ve met I. Europe seem to work much better (although they wouldn’t all be suitable for being part of the boarding process on buses). Is the problem with ours that we’re trying to have machines that can read bank cards and Aztec codes rather than going for a standard pre-loaded card / ticket?

 

[BuhSnarf]

So just *slightly* bad then! If you are used to the relatively fast boarding in London (which is not as fast as other places in Europe) then you really notice it when lots of people keep buying £3 tickets from the driver. It makes a hell of a difference. It should be just a case of tapping the card and sitting down.

I think we need a survey of boarding times so we can settle this debate once and for all. Maybe I'll start a new thread so that people can log the boarding times at each stop on their travels.

I'm due a fairly big journey across multiple buses next week for a video, I'll make sure to count the time lost at stops.

Of course - there will ALWAYS be time lost at stops as the bus has to slow, open doors and let humans on, let them sit down and then accelerate off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having multiple people all taking multiple attempts to tap off has a significant effect on boarding time as well!

It can. It's one of the reasons why dual door is the best approach on any operation where you get both boarding and alighting at the same stops. (It's not of benefit on typical small-town routes where you get boarding only towards town with everyone getting off at the bus station and vice versa on the way out). Because with dual door it has a much smaller effect on boarding passengers as boarding and alighting happen at the same time.

 

[Gloster]

Two minor points. I have a feeling that with the new electric buses both the initial acceleration away from a stop and the very last bit of stopping are somewhat sharper than with diesel ones. It might be that it won‘t continue to happen as drivers become more used to them, but it is still a regular occurrence. This means that passengers are more likely to stay seated and drivers more likely to wait for boarding passengers to sit down. It has got to the point that I can usually use the last bit of the bus’ stopping to help propel me to a standing position.

Another one point is that people seem increasingly likely to jump on the bus as soon as the doors open: they then either stand in the gangway forcing descending passengers to squirm their way past or take an awfully long time to turn around and get off again to leave the gangway clear. During and post-COVID people seemed to make an effort to check if someone was getting off, but now they have gone back to living in their own little bubble oblivious to others.

 

[BuhSnarf]

It can. It's one of the reasons why dual door is the best approach on any operation where you get both boarding and alighting at the same stops. (It's not of benefit on typical small-town routes where you get boarding only towards town with everyone getting off at the bus station and vice versa on the way out). Because with dual door it has a much smaller effect on boarding passengers as boarding and alighting happen at the same time.

Unfortunately dual door operation in the provincial areas tends to just lead to many people not paying their fare as they jump on the back door, so probably unlikely to be adopted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2026 ==

Another one point is that people seem increasingly likely to jump on the bus as soon as the doors open: they then either stand in the gangway forcing descending passengers to squirm their way past or take an awfully long time to turn around and get off again to leave the gangway clear. During and post-COVID people seemed to make an effort to check if someone was getting off, but now they have gone back to living in their own little bubble oblivious to others.

I have found the most pro-active drivers will stop people getting on before everyone has got off, which is always nice.

 

[mchunt]

I was one of the last conductors in the country (outside London) 46 years ago so the lack of conductors in not relevant to this thread.

Wheelchairs are one thing which slow things down but I don't think anyone would complain about them.

Alighting the biggest thing which has changed is the relatively new habit of all passengers ringing the bell then waiting until the bus stops before getting leaving their seats, even teens coming down from upstairs at the back. Going back to when Grey Green ran the 24 route in London their deckers only had an upstairs bell push at the top of the stairs.

Another thing which affects alighting, but also boarding is the distance infirm passengers have to walk to reach seats, going back to when I was driving seats on the drivers side used to run all the way to the cab with a luggage pen over the front wheels on the nearside.

Electronic ticket machines are a big slowdown, if anything people paying by card slow things more than cash payers because of the time taken for the card to be presented and read, cash itself is not a factor in slow boarding. A mechanical Almex or TIM were far quicker to operate than a ticketer machine, helped by the fact that the drivers knew virtually all the fares and did not have to scroll to find stops on machines.

another factor is people not having fares, passed ready when the bus arrives, although this always happened it is far more common now.

Some Stagecoach drivers shout at you if you stand up before the bus stops, the announcements on the new electric busses on the 148 service also say wait for it to stop. Someone must have fallen and now they are being paranoid. Must add 10mins+ between Coventry & Leicester when driver is enforcing this, but the acceleration is better than the diesels so they still keep to time.

 

[johncrossley]

Unfortunately dual door operation in the provincial areas tends to just lead to many people not paying their fare as they jump on the back door, so probably unlikely to be adopted.

It is really difficult to believe that there is a significant difference in human behaviour between London (and most other big cities in the world) and the rest of the UK. London and the rest of the world use ticket inspectors to catch people not paying their fare.