GTR Summer Holiday Cancellations

[NorthKent1989]

In the event of a Thameslink withdrawal from the area what you could do is have a CST-Greenwich-Dartford-Gravesend service which would call at every station including the ones between Dartford and Gravesend.

And have a CHX or VIC-Lewisham-Woolwich-Dartford-Medway service Which calls only at Greenhithe between Dartford and Gravesend

 

[Mattplans]

In the event of a Thameslink withdrawal from the area what you could do is have a CST-Greenwich-Dartford-Gravesend service which would call at every station including the ones between Dartford and Gravesend.

And have a CHX or VIC-Lewisham-Woolwich-Dartford-Medway service Which calls only at Greenhithe between Dartford and Gravesend

I’m not really in favour of more crossings of the Lewisham junction. But if there is to be one, it should probably run via Bexleyheath, not Woolwich as that is where the existing demand lies for Victoria and probably deserves the additional frequency to support journeys and existing demand as opposed to a line where nobody travels to Victoria and there’s no indication of any demand.

 

[FR510]

.

Dartford

(And South Eastern extending 2tph from Gravesend to Rainham in place of the Thameslink service)

SE Rainham services are not DOO and would require a guard between Rainham and Gillingham so that would be unlikely to happen. The Gillingham to Victoria stopping service could be extended to Rainham which would free up platform 1 at Gillingham for a DOO service via Dartford. Theoretically of course!

 

[NorthKent1989]

I’m not really in favour of more crossings of the Lewisham junction. But if there is to be one, it should probably run via Bexleyheath, not Woolwich as that is where the existing demand lies for Victoria and probably deserves the additional frequency to support journeys and existing demand as opposed to a line where nobody travels to Victoria and there’s no indication of any demand.

Then how are Medway customers supposed to reach Abbey Wood for the EL? If such a service runs via Bexleyheath.

Also there is plenty demand for cross South London travel, at one point what is now large parts of the Overground network were once backwater lines that no one wanted to use in the 90s & 00s, with many choosing local buses, now look at those lines, you create demand there was no demand back when the Victoria service was introduced in the early 90s but it gradually grew.

I’m not in favour of sending more Woolwich trains to Cannon Street where apart from peak times very few people use it, junctions are part of railway life.

SE Rainham services are not DOO and would require a guard between Rainham and Gillingham so that would be unlikely to happen. The Gillingham to Victoria stopping service could be extended to Rainham which would free up platform 1 at Gillingham for a DOO service via Dartford. Theoretically of course!

Why not keep Rainham as a Dartford service? Genuinely curious but do Rainham folk use the current Thameslink to reach Abbey Wood? It’s part of the Medway conurbation.

I’m happy for either trains to terminate at Rainham or Gillingham as long as Medway gets a fast link to Abbey Wood and other interchanges on the line.

 

[Mattplans]

Then how are Medway customers supposed to reach Abbey Wood for the EL? If such a service runs via Bexleyheath.

Also there is plenty demand for cross South London travel, at one point what is now large parts of the Overground network were once backwater lines that no one wanted to use in the 90s & 00s, with many choosing local buses, now look at those lines, you create demand there was no demand back when the Victoria service was introduced in the early 90s but it gradually grew.

I’m not in favour of sending more Woolwich trains to Cannon Street where apart from peak times very few people use it, junctions are part of railway life.




Why not keep Rainham as a Dartford service? Genuinely curious but do Rainham folk use the current Thameslink to reach Abbey Wood? It’s part of the Medway conurbation.

I’m happy for either trains to terminate at Rainham or Gillingham as long as Medway gets a fast link to Abbey Wood and other interchanges on the line.

You misunderstand me. I’m saying that any Victoria-Lewisham service should run via Bexleyheath where there is existing demand with weaker TfL links. Not that there can’t /shouldn't be a service from Medway to Abbey Wood

 

[London Trains]

You misunderstand me. I’m saying that any Victoria-Lewisham service should run via Bexleyheath where there is existing demand with weaker TfL links. Not that there can’t /shouldn't be a service from Medway to Abbey Wood

Sending more Bexleyheath services to Victoria instead of Charing Cross/Cannon Street would be detrimental, unless you're suggesting an entirely new service on top of the existing services.

Victoria would be a better destination than Cannon Street for the service via Lewisham and Woolwich, simply because the line already has faster services to London Bridge and Cannon Street via Greenwich, to the point where the service via Lewisham is actually overtaken by the Rainham to Luton service.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Sending more Bexleyheath services to Victoria instead of Charing Cross/Cannon Street would be detrimental, unless you're suggesting an entirely new service on top of the existing services.

Victoria would be a better destination than Cannon Street for the service via Lewisham and Woolwich, simply because the line already has faster services to London Bridge and Cannon Street via Greenwich, to the point where the service via Lewisham is actually overtaken by the Rainham to Luton service.

Agreed, I’d have a hypothetical Victoria service replace the Thameslink one.

It keeps the odd one out, outer suburban, semi fast service at 2tph separated from the more metro, inner suburban services that serve London Bridge apart.

No line needs 8tph to Cannon Street and the Lewisham service shouldn’t duplicate the Greenwich one

 

[Mattplans]

No line needs 8tph to Cannon Street and the Lewisham service shouldn’t duplicate the Greenwich one

Look , passengers vote with their feet and the demand and ODM speaks for itself. It was Dec 2022? when Charlton lost Charing Cross.

Something to note is that even before the service was withdrawn there was a dramatic reduction in passenger numbers from Woolwich Arsenal to London Charing Cross.

For very obvious reasons - a new, faster, more frequent air conditioned railway now exists between London and Woolwich/Abbey Wood and stations east can connect to it. It is the superior link to the West End and this can't really be a topic of debate any longer

Neighbouring stations like Eltham and Sidcup have strong demand for Charing Corss (evidenced by passenger numbers) and have weaker TfL links - ie, no Underground, DLR or Elizabeth Line on their doorsteps.

The paths in/out of Charing Cross are valuable - and you argue that sending it to Cannon Street is a duplication of service via Greenwich, but surely sending it to Charing Cross is a duplication of the service offered by the Elizabeth Line? Who offer a far superior service, mind you. I know which one I would pick! These services would be moving around fresh air while sending it via Bexleyheath or Sidcup (again, fewer alternatives) would be fairly loaded outside of peak hours and v. well loaded in peaks.

All of this has led to a situation where the current numbers to/from Charing Cross (from Woolwich A) is only 10k passengers and stations between abbbey wood and slade green is only about 6k. This is incredibly low, in the context of the metro, and I think it is pretty difficult to justify displacing other servies and crossing more junctions (reliability risk) when there is no indication of any demand. What you're basically proposing is making the railway more liable to delays for the people that *actually use* the Southeastern trains for the handful of people that travel from the Woolwich line to Charing Cross.

The Lewisham junction is a further barrier to these services and any further unnecessary crossing of this junction has to be justified in actual demand and not "Nice to haves".

In the context of the metro, and the loadings you get during peak hours, it simply does not make sense especially when any service ran from Charing Cross to Woolwich is quite literally a train that could be going anywhere else on the metro network to a place that has proven demand, actually needs it and has no alternatives.

Furthermore, as mentioned previously this service would only serve Charlton - the only station without links to the West End today.



Demand simply isn't enough and the infrastructure risk potential is too high to justify it in my eyes. So for the very few people who travel from Charlton to Charing Cross, and on the entire line to Waterloo East, I think those people are capable of changing at London Bridge, the £1 billion interchange that was refurbished with this very reason in mind, which has upwards of 12tph to Charing Cross and Waterloo East which you never wait more than 5 minutes for. I think the people of Charlton will survive!!!

According to the ODM report, more people travel from Charing Cross to Gatwick Airport and even North Dulwich and Peckham Rye than they do Woolwich Arsenal. If they can change at London Bridge, why can't people from the Woolwich line? As I said passengers vote with their feet.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Look , passengers vote with their feet and the demand and ODM speaks for itself. It was Dec 2022? when Charlton lost Charing Cross.

Something to note is that even before the service was withdrawn there was a dramatic reduction in passenger numbers from Woolwich Arsenal to London Charing Cross.
View attachment 208053
For very obvious reasons - a new, faster, more frequent air conditioned railway now exists between London and Woolwich/Abbey Wood and stations east can connect to it. It is the superior link to the West End and this can't really be a topic of debate any longer

Neighbouring stations like Eltham and Sidcup have strong demand for Charing Corss (evidenced by passenger numbers) and have weaker TfL links - ie, no Underground, DLR or Elizabeth Line on their doorsteps.

The paths in/out of Charing Cross are valuable - and you argue that sending it to Cannon Street is a duplication of service via Greenwich, but surely sending it to Charing Cross is a duplication of the service offered by the Elizabeth Line? Who offer a far superior service, mind you. I know which one I would pick! These services would be moving around fresh air while sending it via Bexleyheath or Sidcup (again, fewer alternatives) would be fairly loaded outside of peak hours and v. well loaded in peaks.

All of this has led to a situation where the current numbers to/from Charing Cross (from Woolwich A) is only 10k passengers and stations between abbbey wood and slade green is only about 6k. This is incredibly low, in the context of the metro, and I think it is pretty difficult to justify displacing other servies and crossing more junctions (reliability risk) when there is no indication of any demand. What you're basically proposing is making the railway more liable to delays for the people that *actually use* the Southeastern trains for the handful of people that travel from the Woolwich line to Charing Cross.

The Lewisham junction is a further barrier to these services and any further unnecessary crossing of this junction has to be justified in actual demand and not "Nice to haves".

In the context of the metro, and the loadings you get during peak hours, it simply does not make sense especially when any service ran from Charing Cross to Woolwich is quite literally a train that could be going anywhere else on the metro network to a place that has proven demand, actually needs it and has no alternatives.

Furthermore, as mentioned previously this service would only serve Charlton - the only station without links to the West End today.

View attachment 208056

Demand simply isn't enough and the infrastructure risk potential is too high to justify it in my eyes. So for the very few people who travel from Charlton to Charing Cross, and on the entire line to Waterloo East, I think those people are capable of changing at London Bridge, the £1 billion interchange that was refurbished with this very reason in mind, which has upwards of 12tph to Charing Cross and Waterloo East which you never wait more than 5 minutes for. I think the people of Charlton will survive!!!

According to the ODM report, more people travel directly from Charing Cross to Gatwick Airport and even North Dulwich and Peckham Rye than they do Woolwich Arsenal. If they can do the change, why can't people from the Woolwich line? As I said passengers vote with their feet.

The drop before 2022 was due to Covid and people working more from home from 2020-2022, The major drop comes after December 2022, from May to December of that year Charing Cross trains were still heavily used, the drop off comes after SE pushed through their controversial timetable change in December, that’s why people walked away from SE this was seen even on the Bexleyheath line

The Elizabeth line also serves the city so does the DLR, so by that logic we shouldn’t need any more CST trains either

Do more people travel from CHX to Dulwich or Gatwick? Both have dirct Victoria services and neither have ever had CHX Trains as far as I’m aware

Delays still happen, with or without Lewisham junction reducing the crossings hasn’t altered that, and even the EL as good as it is is prone to some pretty bad delays, as a regular commuter I find changing trains increases my journey time and that of many others

The Bexleyheath line is no more hard up than the Woolwich line, they have 3 terminals it’s just they lack the TfL interchanges until Lewisham, but they still have it better than the Sidcup line.

Lack of space at CHX This is why i suggested that the Thameslink replacement should be a Victoria service as that offers a different untapped demand of cross South London opportunities and yes as well as a West End alternative if needed

The Elizabeth line was meant to be an addition not a replacement service, I don’t see anyone suggesting to reduce the Jubilee or Central lines at Stratford.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There is a lot of value in the Blackheath connection from the NKL hence why SE brought it back for Sundays, Lewisham is a fast growing urban district one day to be connected to the Bakerloo line, not to mention it’s a major transport hub with far reaching connections across South & South East London, that outweighs any connections on the Greenwich line, Lewisham is also a major shopping district.

But Lewisham is easily reached from the Woolwich line by using the DLR from Greenwich.

Pre Covid the CHX-Lewisham-Woolwich-Dartford service was often the busiest of the Woolwich line services, so locals will beg to differ in the claim there is little value in this service!

I imagine that was mainly because it was the only CHX service to the Woolwich line, rather than because it went via Lewisham. And going to CHX meant that pre-Elizabeth line, it was by far the easiest way to get from Woolwich/etc. to the West End. I used it quite often back in the day, but I'm not sure I would now that the Elizabeth line is available.

Personally I think the direct Lewisham-Woolwich service is useful, but it's never going to be more than half-hourly, and if having it makes it harder to run decent turn-up-and-go frequencies on the other lines, then losing it might be the least bad option. (We really should be prioritising going back to having a train every 10 minutes through Deptford and Greenwich, the way it used to be)

 

[NorthKent1989]

But Lewisham is easily reached from the Woolwich line by using the DLR from Greenwich.

But it’s easily reached now by one direct train, why alter that?

I imagine that was mainly because it was the only CHX service to the Woolwich line, rather than because it went via Lewisham. And going to CHX meant that pre-Elizabeth line, it was by far the easiest way to get from Woolwich/etc. to the West End. I used it quite often back in the day, but I'm not sure I would now that the Elizabeth line is available.

This during the brief overlap period when the EL had just opened in the May up to the December, the drop came from the Thameslink iirc.

Personally I think the direct Lewisham-Woolwich service is useful, but it's never going to be more than half-hourly, and if having it makes it harder to run decent turn-up-and-go frequencies on the other lines, then losing it might be the least bad option. (We really should be prioritising going back to having a train every 10 minutes through Deptford and Greenwich, the way it used to be)

It matters not if it’s half hourly, the Greenwich line can still be 6tph, so can the Bexleyheath Line, and so can the Sidcup line, 2tph Blackheath/Woolwich won’t interfere with that, we literally had this pattern in the 2010s except back then the Sidcup line was only 4tph

The Blackheath-Woolwich route could be the semi fast Medway service that serves Victoria, and keeping the metro focused services on the Greenwich, Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines at London Bridge.

 

[Mattplans]

Do more people travel from CHX to Dulwich or Gatwick? Both have dirct Victoria services and neither have ever had CHX Trains as far as I’m aware

More people travel from Gatwick Airport and Dulwich to Charing Cross (by changing at London Bridge) than passengers from Woolwich Arsenal do. My point being a comparison, that if Charing Cross is currently more popular amongst GTR passengers who also have no direct service there, why does Woolwich Arsenal *need* a direct service? Why is changing above the Woolwich line?

The Blackheath-Woolwich route could be the semi fast Medway service that serves Victoria, and keeping the metro focused services on the Greenwich, Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines at London Bridge.

And the flows that have developed between Barnehurst and Blackheath for Victoria and assoc. stations?

At the end of the day I think the reasons against giving Charlton-Victoria/Charing X service are more compelling. You've got no demand, no indication of a potential uprise in demand either. We've got this £1b interchange that has been built for the reason of changing trains. Either way it doesn't matter, as it couldn't be clearer that there is no Charing X - Woolwich A flow since the Elizabeth Line opened. It does not make any sense for more crossings at Lewisham junction, which the reduction of has improved reliability for the railway and Kent route as a whole.

There's also no indication there would be any demand from Victoria to Woolwich line either. Flows have been built around the Bexleyheath line now. I'm not seeing the logic in reversing that because "the Woolwich Line should have another destination that isn't Cannon Street"... spoiler alert, the Woolwich line has direct trains to the West End, Farringdon, Canary Wharf, Bank, Tottenham Court Road (the busiest Underground station), Stratford, the Docklands, City Airport, Heathrow Airport, Luton Airport......I'm not accepting the argument they are, by any metric, hard done by here. No other Dartford route has such strong connections to the entire city. That's why they should have Charing X trains and not Woolwich (never mind all the pathing/etc that has been mentioned numerous times). Demand is at an all time low from Woolwich to Charing X, and there's no indication it would recover.

The case that has been presented in this (and other) threads for giving Woolwich a Charing X service has been "longstanding links" and "it would be nice to have another terminal". Unfortunately I do not think these are particularly compelling arguments. They would need to be based in demand and delivering a good service for the taxpayer. Is it a good service for the taxpayer to deliver a service from the highly-sought-after Charing Cross to Woolwich Arsenal thereby duplicating existing links and crossing highly temperamentaljunctions in the process? it might've been a different conversation had there actually been demand from Woolwich to Charing X, but there isn't.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Why is changing above the Woolwich line?

Could ask the same for other lines too.
No one has demanded Stratford has fewer Central or Jubiliee trains, nor has Central or District trains been cut back from Ealing Broadway, so why should the EL be treated as a replacement and not an addition.

Why should the Bexleyheath line get three terminals no less? No where in London has this, most lines have 2 at best If changing trains is good enough for the Woolwich line it should be good enough for the Bexleyheath line too by that logic, or if Lewisham Junction was really as terrible as some here make out to be sure why are there still crossovers from the Bexleyheath line? If we’re talking about streamlining or having metro frequencies here, why is the Bexleyheath line above such measures?

I’m leaving the Sidcup line alone as that is the line most hard done by quite frankly.

which the reduction of has improved reliability for the other metro routes

It really hasn’t

Flows have been built around the Bexleyheath line

Because it’s been built up over the past thirty years it didn’t come from out the blue, fact is some of the destinations along the Lewisham-Victoria stretch has become popular, so much so that 4tph was planned a while back and not entirely off the table.

spoiler alert

Please

Woolwich line has direct trains to the West End, Farringdon, Canary Wharf, Bank, Stratford, the Docklands, City Airport, Heathrow Airport, Luton Airport

So a small part of South East London finally enjoys what other parts of London have enjoyed for decades in home shape or form.

I'm not accepting the argument they are by any metric hard done by here. No other Dartford route has such strong connections

Bexleyheath line, three terminals, cross South London connections, not hard done by either so I won’t accept that they are either.

Thameslink is reducing it’s services along the Woolwich line in a latest round of cuts and will no longer reach Luton and has barely ran a decent service these past eight years, whenever Thameslink is delayed the rest of the line goes up the spout, it’s almost as if the reasons why all the Dartford routes were dropped from early proposals in the first place have to come to light.

The EL and DLR serves the city too, in fact the EL serves Liverpool Street which has far more going on than Cannon Street which is still a dead zone off peak.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is for the discussion of GTR Summer Holiday Cancellations.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread elsewhere.

thanks all

 

[Mattplans]

No one has demanded Stratford has fewer Central or Jubiliee trains, nor has Central or District trains been cut back from Ealing Broadway, so why should the EL be treated as a replacement and not an addition.

Comparisons drawn from Stratford are not the same thing.

And Ealing Broadway does have its' Central Line service being reduced. https://x.com/RupaHuq/status/2064393675233263893


(The tweet is Rupa Huq MP for Ealing, complaining about the reduction in Central Line services to/form Ealing Broadway. It was reported by ASLEF Shrugged initially)

 

[TrenHotel]

I guess this is moot since the cash all goes into the same pot, but does GTR lose what would otherwise be guaranteed income from these cancellations?

I'm assuming that half (or a close-ish proportion) of half would - at least notionally - go to GTR if I tapped in from Maze Hill and tapped out at London Bridge last week.

Now GTR can't be bothered to serve this flow properly - and Maze Hill was quite busy this lunchtime after a 30-minute gap between trains - does it still get the same proportion of that fare, or does it drop?

 

[Watershed]

I guess this is moot since the cash all goes into the same pot, but does GTR lose what would otherwise be guaranteed income from these cancellations?

I'm assuming that half (or a close-ish proportion) of half would - at least notionally - go to GTR if I tapped in from Maze Hill and tapped out at London Bridge last week.

Now GTR can't be bothered to serve this flow properly - and Maze Hill was quite busy this lunchtime after a 30-minute gap between trains - does it still get the same proportion of that fare, or does it drop?

This will be down to ORCATS distribution. There are threads passim on ORCATS but to summarise, a 'snapshot' of each half-yearly timetable is used to allocate revenue for most journeys, along with the typical seating capacity of each service.

Temporary changes don't tend to impact the allocation unless a manual allocations is agreed between the relevant operators.

 

[TrenHotel]

This will be down to ORCATS distribution. There are threads passim on ORCATS but to summarise, a 'snapshot' of each half-yearly timetable is used to allocate revenue for most journeys, along with the typical seating capacity of each service.

Temporary changes don't tend to impact the allocation unless a manual allocations is agreed between the relevant operators.

Thank you for this - the thought came from the earlier threads from when Thameslink started running through Greenwich, there was a theory that it was a raid on ORCATS revenue from Abbey Wood to Farringdon.

 

[devon_belle]

I noticed today that 17:25 Victoria to Horsham was cancelled from Dorking to Horsham, but then the 17:41, which was withdrawn between those stations over the summer, was run down to Horsham instead. I still don't know why 17:41 was not kept in the "summer" timetable, as that is the regular clock face service and runs 10 car not 8, whereas the 17:25 is an Epsom peak extra extended to Horsham since a couple of years ago.