Merseyrail to be brought back under public control: what improvements/changes may result?

[JamesT]

Indeed, and presumably regular commuters would purchase Trio tickets.

But clearly if you are trying to develop integrated public transport, where it doesn't matter whether the train is painted blue or green, or whether the transport has tyres or not, then you need better fares integration.

And this will be easier to achieve the more control you have and the fewer parties (who may have different objectives) are involved.

Though as London shows, you can have integrated fares without needing to run the trains or buses in house.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though as London shows, you can have integrated fares without needing to run the trains or buses in house.

London actually demonstrates the folly of not having integrated fares despite bus and rail both being controlled centrally. Aside from Travelcards and the derivative caps, there is very little integration between bus and rail fares. This, bar the lack of a peak time day product, is no different to Merseyside now.

 

[gray1404]

There seems to be a way of thinking in Merseyside that attracts a lot of public support that if things are run locally they are better. That seems to blind a lot of people's thinking. Merseyrail being ran as a national TOC works well with integrated ticketing, passenger rates under the National Rail Conditions of Travel and the expertise of Network Rail managing the track and infrastructure.

 

[Djgr]

There seems to be a way of thinking in Merseyside that attracts a lot of public support that if things are run locally they are better. That seems to blind a lot of people's thinking. Merseyrail being ran as a national TOC works well with integrated ticketing, passenger rates under the National Rail Conditions of Travel and the expertise of Network Rail managing the track and infrastructure.

I think this is called local democracy.

To my knowledge, Network Rail do not manage the track and infrastructure of the Tyne and Wear Metro, for example.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

the expertise of Network Rail managing the track and infrastructure.

Hmm, there could be some debate about that. Several times I have heard the last minute cancellation of engineering work (often meaning no trains and no work done) attributed to network rail failing to honour plant bookings for third rail plant a long way from home.

Then there are the point components which have been sat in a car park for a couple of years awaiting installation - unless they are buying their track in installments! Meanwhile, disruption due to points failures continues to happen

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2026 ==

To answer the original thread, it would be nice if Merseyrail ticket offices, as they are there and open, retailed tickets for other modes. I tried (and failed) to get a metro card before rail tap and go started, only to be told it wasn't their scheme and they were only as involved as Merseytravel forced them to be.

 

[Djgr]

To answer the original thread, it would be nice if Merseyrail ticket offices, as they are there and open, retailed tickets for other modes. I tried (and failed) to get a metro card before rail tap and go started, only to be told it wasn't their scheme and they were only as involved as Merseytravel forced them to be.

Clearly the Merseyrail ticket office was in the wrong as they are obliged to do so.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2026 ==

Hmm, there could be some debate about that. Several times I have heard the last minute cancellation of engineering work (often meaning no trains and no work done) attributed to network rail failing to honour plant bookings for third rail plant a long way from home.

Network Rail didn't seem to place any urgency into sorting out the relatively minor work on the North Wales coast line that was holding up the introduction of the Liverpool-Llandudno directs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Clearly the Merseyrail ticket office was in the wrong as they are obliged to do so.

Refusing a Metrocard is odd when that's the only way they sell Saveaways. But there is a tradition of laziness among some booking office staff on Merseyside and has been for years. "Yer'll af'ter go ter Laime Stsreets fer dat!"

 

[frodshamfella]

I'm not completely against Merseyrail being brought back into public ownership, and in fact I'm supportive of it being ran by the local authorities rather than a Whitehall body. But why must the passenger transport executive be renamed from Merseytravel, already an established name that works, to Transport for Liverpool City Region with it's awkward abbreviation? London-style naming won't bring London quality.

Totally agree. It's not necessary to follow the ' transport for bla bla bla ' Merseytravel is just fine and very well established.

 

[Djgr]

Totally agree. It's not necessary to follow the ' transport for bla bla bla ' Merseytravel is just fine and very well established.

The confusion is between Merseytravel and Merseyrail, which will disappear when Merseyrail is absorbed into Merseytravel.

 

[thenorthern]

Obviously, back in the British Rail days Merseyrail had the Regional Railways branding and colours until 1993.

Given that Merseyrail has the unique Merseytravel and National Rail two-arrow dual branding will the dual branding remain post GBR? I know London Overground and Crossrail got rid of the two-arrow logo and largely only use the TFL Roundel.

I think this is called local democracy.

To my knowledge, Network Rail do not manage the track and infrastructure of the Tyne and Wear Metro, for example.

They do for the part shared with National Rail and they do for the South Hylton branch, which beyond Sunderland station in Metro only.

 

[Polarbear]

I’m aware that Mr Rotherham has talked in general terms about increasing service frequency on Merseyrail routes.

I’d start by looking to extend the current daytime frequencies a little later into the evening on weekdays. Maybe also consider some increases on Sunday-especially early morning where very little happens before 08:00.

Appreciate it’s not quite as easy as just asking for things to happen. I’d also question whether daytime frequencies could easily be increased without infrastructure improvements?

 

[Djgr]

I’m aware that Mr Rotherham has talked in general terms about increasing service frequency on Merseyrail routes.

I’d start by looking to extend the current daytime frequencies a little later into the evening on weekdays. Maybe also consider some increases on Sunday-especially early morning where very little happens before 08:00.

Appreciate it’s not quite as easy as just asking for things to happen. I’d also question whether daytime frequencies could easily be increased without infrastructure improvements?

I think this is sensible. Daytime frequencies are more or less turn up and go.

Note: Rotherham is a town. Rotheram is a person.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m aware that Mr Rotherham has talked in general terms about increasing service frequency on Merseyrail routes.

I’d start by looking to extend the current daytime frequencies a little later into the evening on weekdays. Maybe also consider some increases on Sunday-especially early morning where very little happens before 08:00.

Appreciate it’s not quite as easy as just asking for things to happen. I’d also question whether daytime frequencies could easily be increased without infrastructure improvements?

I think if you were going to be beefing up the service in the evenings it would also be good to run an hour or two later on Friday and Saturday evenings, as Metrolink do. That could be combined with a more comprehensive night bus network.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Merseyrail being ran as a national TOC

Merseyrail isn't a national TOC. It is a concessionaire and that concession is awarded by Merseytravel not the Department for Transport. It exists in the same hybrid world as TfL's Overground and Elizabeth Line concessions.

I tried (and failed) to get a metro card before rail tap and go started, only to be told it wasn't their scheme and they were only as involved as Merseytravel forced them to be.

Sounds like a lazy ticket office clerk to me. I got my Metrocard at James Street (Water Street ticket office) the first time I got a Saveaway, no problems at all.

Though as London shows, you can have integrated fares without needing to run the trains or buses in house.

London's fares are not integrated. London's fare structure is extraordinarily complex.

People simply don't notice or appreciate the complexity of the fare structure because they just tap their card and the computer does all the calculations for them afterwards.

As @Bletchleyite says, the only integration in London's fare structure comes with the daily/weekly caps and the Travelcard. For single journeys, and even for multiple journeys under the daily cap, the amount you pay can vary wildly depending on what mode of transport you're using and, for trains, who operates the train in question.

The fares structure in Merseyside is exactly the same, with the Saveaway (off-peak day ticket) and the Trio (season ticket). The only other complexity comes with Merseyrail offering an off-peak day ticket only valid on Merseyrail and- disgracefully, in my opinion- setting the price for that at only a few pence less than the Saveaway.

The only real omission is that there isn't a version of the Saveaway which is valid in the morning peak. I'd hope that changes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only real omission is that there isn't a version of the Saveaway which is valid in the morning peak. I'd hope that changes.

Interestingly there was one a while back, appropriately called the "All Day Saveaway". I'm not sure when it was removed though.

The other useful ticket that did exist and doesn't now was an off peak all modes season ticket. You often get those in Germany under the name "CC-Karten" though I have no idea why that name!

 

[Peakrider]

I'm not completely against Merseyrail being brought back into public ownership, and in fact I'm supportive of it being ran by the local authorities rather than a Whitehall body. But why must the passenger transport executive be renamed from Merseytravel, already an established name that works, to Transport for Liverpool City Region with it's awkward abbreviation? London-style naming won't bring London quality.

Definitely agree - the new name IMHO just highlights the north's obsession with making everything "London Style".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2026 ==

Interestingly there was one a while back, appropriately called the "All Day Saveaway". I'm not sure when it was removed though.

The other useful ticket that did exist and doesn't now was an off peak all modes season ticket. You often get those in Germany under the name "CC-Karten" though I have no idea why that name!

The Savaway will hopefully become the default day ticket (or fare cap). Currently the restrictive Merseyrail only Day Saver is promoted by Merseyrail in order to retain 100% revenue, but priced only a few pence cheaper than the Savaway (which allows off peak travel on buses, all trains in Merseyside and the ferry). Curiously the Savaway is only issued on a Metro card at Merseyrail stations, but issued on paper tickets at Northern and TfW ticket offices.
Excuse my cynicism, but this can only be a ruse to promote sales of the Mersayrail only (paper) Day Saver with its associated 100% revenue retention by the company, which, priced only a few pence less that a Savaway is a bit of a con.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2026 ==

London actually demonstrates the folly of not having integrated fares despite bus and rail both being controlled centrally. Aside from Travelcards and the derivative caps, there is very little integration between bus and rail fares. This, bar the lack of a peak time day product, is no different to Merseyside now.

Not quite. In London you can tap a credit card on bus, tram, tube or train in any order and at anytime, and benefit from the appropriate fare cap. In Merseyside there is only a very limited Tap and Go fare cap on the Wirral & Northern lines only, and it still doesn't work at Chester because the TfW barriers don't recognise it, or at all on the City Line. So if you then travel on a bus or the City Line you still (unlike London) have to pay separately & pay extra to the Tap & Go cap.
In short, in London there is no need to pre-plan your ticketing, in Merseyside there is.

 

[Sorcerer]

Totally agree. It's not necessary to follow the ' transport for bla bla bla ' Merseytravel is just fine and very well established.

Definitely agree - the new name IMHO just highlights the north's obsession with making everything "London Style".

Personally, if we absolutely had to go with a "Transport for" template for unity across regions, then Transport for Merseyside (TfM) would've been a better option in my opinion. Some areas it serves might not be on the banks of the Mersey but not everywhere served is part of the Liverpool City Region either.

The confusion is between Merseytravel and Merseyrail, which will disappear when Merseyrail is absorbed into Merseytravel.

I've never personally known anyone to get confused. For the most part Merseytravel is only really be seen at major bus nodes like Queen's Square or Huyton where you have multiple yellow bus stops and a travel centre where you might hear suggestions to see a member of Merseytravel staff.

 

[Peakrider]

I think if you were going to be beefing up the service in the evenings it would also be good to run an hour or two later on Friday and Saturday evenings, as Metrolink do. That could be combined with a more comprehensive night bus network.

Yes we definitely need later weekend trains. I think part of the problem, aside from lack of ambition, is the cost of staffing all stations later into the night, given Merseytravels (admirable) policy that all stations are staffed from first to last trains. With the spread of Tap & Go and the end of the Merseyrail operator concession I suspect this policy may be quietly dropped and we'll have "London Style' unstaffed stations before too long. Whether as a result they'll provide later trains is questionable.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2026 ==

Refusing a Metrocard is odd when that's the only way they sell Saveaways. But there is a tradition of laziness among some booking office staff on Merseyside and has been for years. "Yer'll af'ter go ter Laime Stsreets fer dat!"

Was the 'Merseyrail' station referred to a City Line Northern ticket office, painted up in yellow and black and confusingly branded as Merseyrail? If so, the City Line stations aren't equipped with the Metro Card encoders etc which is why Savaways bought on the City Line (& Chester) are only issued as paper tickets. This would account for the "this isn't our scheme" dialogue....because currently it isn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2026 ==

They will need a new leadership team to replace Serco/Transport UK in 2028.

Unlike a DfT franchise there is no established public sector operator (DFTO) to step in.
Will Stadler continue to run the depots/maintain the trains? Will GBR (ex-NR) continue to own/maintain the network?

This will have been the longest private TOC contract in the UK - 25 years 2003-28, albeit at concession level.

TfL is continuing with its private concession policy, for now (for London Overground and Elizabeth Line services).

Do they need a new leadership team? Surely they'll just TUPE over the existing managers?

 

[Kite159]

What would be good to see if the 4tph timetable running a couple of hours later into the evenings, so rather than around 7pm when services start getting chopped back to 2tph, the turn up and go 4tph service remains until say 10pm.

After-all you don't see London Overground axing half their trains in the evenings and they run on a similar method of staffing stations from first to last train.

@Peakrider who knows regarding some of the management team, some will get TUPEd, others might not (or might decide to take retirement)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Excuse my cynicism, but this can only be a ruse to promote sales of the Mersayrail only (paper) Day Saver with its associated 100% revenue retention by the company

I wouldn’t agree. The Metrocard only costs £1 on your first purchase and most people who get one will live in the area and will reuse the Metrocard anyway.

The day ticket replaced off-peak tickets. The cynicism isn’t about promoting these tickets at the expense of the Saveaway, the cynicism is in replacing off-peak returns with this ticket and then using the Saveaway as the price benchmark. That hid quite a few rather large off-peak fare rises.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2026 ==

In London you can tap a credit card on bus, tram, tube or train in any order and at anytime, and benefit from the appropriate fare cap.

And most paper tickets have been withdrawn as a consequence of that. Swings and roundabouts.

Merseyside there is only a very limited Tap and Go fare cap on the Wirral & Northern lines only, and it still doesn't work at Chester because the TfW barriers don't recognise it, or at all on the City Line. So if you then travel on a bus or the City Line you still (unlike London) have to pay separately & pay extra to the Tap & Go cap.

There’s a tap and go cap on Arriva too. But yes, the contactless capping isn’t as integrated as it could be. You have to commit to a ticket in advance.

But the fact is that London’s fares are not integrated, it’s just that the complexity is hidden under the bonnet in London.

 

[Djgr]

I've never personally known anyone to get confused. For the most part Merseytravel is only really be seen at major bus nodes like Queen's Square or Huyton where you have multiple yellow bus stops and a travel centre where you might hear suggestions to see a member of Merseytravel staff.

Certainly people on this Forum get confused about who does what!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2026 ==

Was the 'Merseyrail' station referred to a City Line Northern ticket office, painted up in yellow and black and confusingly branded as Merseyrail? If so, the City Line stations aren't equipped with the Metro Card encoders etc which is why Savaways bought on the City Line (& Chester) are only issued as paper tickets. This would account for the "this isn't our scheme" dialogue....because currently it isn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2026 ==

The Merseytravel website says "at any rail station across the region". Doesn't specify the region but take it to be LCR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2026 ==

Personally, if we absolutely had to go with a "Transport for" template for unity across regions, then Transport for Merseyside (TfM) would've been a better option in my opinion. Some areas it serves might not be on the banks of the Mersey but not everywhere served is part of the Liverpool City Region either.

Not everyone by any means is enamoured with the idea of using the name of a county council abolished 40 years ago that only existed for 12.

 

[Sorcerer]

Certainly people on this Forum get confused about who does what!

I've never really noticed to be honest.

Not everyone by any means is enamoured with the idea of using the name of a county council abolished 40 years ago that only existed for 12.

I'm confused? Merseyside as a metropolitan county hasn't been abolished by any means.

 

[Djgr]

I've never really noticed to be honest.


I'm confused? Merseyside as a metropolitan county hasn't been abolished by any means.

It quite clearly says county council.

 

[pr1]

I'm confused? Merseyside as a metropolitan county hasn't been abolished by any means.

In many ways, it has. There's no council of that name any longer, and recently the relevant authority is the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority.

As ever with the UK, particularly England, the administration of local communities is a patchwork of legislation, reorganisation, reconsitution, and renaming. People of a certain age still use Middlesex, and that doesn't exist; there are people who insist that Liverpool and Manchester are still Lancashire and in my opinion, both those cities have moved far far far away from being Lancashire, while the current county has not quite kept up culturally or economically.

 

[Sorcerer]

In many ways, it has. There's no council of that name any longer, and recently the relevant authority is the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority.

As ever with the UK, particularly England, the administration of local communities is a patchwork of legislation, reorganisation, reconsitution, and renaming. People of a certain age still use Middlesex, and that doesn't exist; there are people who insist that Liverpool and Manchester are still Lancashire and in my opinion, both those cities have moved far far far away from being Lancashire, while the current county has not quite kept up culturally or economically.

Yet another example of England's confusing county system I guess.

 

[Djgr]

Yet another example of England's confusing county system I guess.

If you were to ask somebody where I live, they would generally say Birkenhead or on (the) Wirral.

Alternatively they might say near Liverpool.

Those of a certain age or inclination, Cheshire.

One place they would rarely say is Merseyside, which is why the boundary sign on the M53 went missing dozens of time before they gave up replacing it!

(As an aside, does anybody know of any Merseyside boundary signs in situ? I can't think of any on the Wirral/Cheshire side)

 

[positron]

Does anyone know what backend system merseyrail uses for their PAYG? I ask because if it's the same as TfW maybe they can resolve the Chester situation and perhaps even have some integrated fare all the way through the Wrexham to Liverpool line journey. Integration of that sort should be the goal for this kind of 'nationalisation'.

Edit: looks like their both unicard systems so I'd hope there's some way to do cross-system back office working.

 

[Djgr]

Does anyone know what backend system merseyrail uses for their PAYG? I ask because if it's the same as TfW maybe they can resolve the Chester situation and perhaps even have some integrated fare all the way through the Wrexham to Liverpool line journey. Integration of that sort should be the goal for this kind of 'nationalisation'.

Edit: looks like their both unicard systems so I'd hope there's some way to do cross-system back office working.

It would be nice if a same PAYG fare was available on all routes from Wrexham to Liverpool.

That said I can't see Borderlands trains looping the Liverpool Loop any time this decade/(century?)

 

[KevinTurvey]

Will the taking control by Liverpool City Region mean loss of integration with the rest of the network as far as through ticketing is concerned, and becoming like Metrolink? I certainly hope not. Currently I can purchase one ticket to travel between Birkenhead and Stafford (random example) Will this mean two separate purchases will be required in future? As another example regarding Metrolink I cannot buy a through ticket to Bury or Oldham from Liverpool, despite these being large northern towns, and previously being able to do so.

On the plus side running the 15 minute timetable for longer at least on Fridays and Saturdays would be good. And Sunday from mid morning-teatime especially summer, is one of the busier periods but is mismatched by a half hourly service. Secondly how will this affect 'City line' services which only see a train every two hours on Sundays? For lines that were recently electrified and partially four tracked (2015) this seems mad.

 

[positron]

It would be nice if a same PAYG fare was available on all routes from Wrexham to Liverpool.

That said I can't see Borderlands trains looping the Liverpool Loop any time this decade/(century?)

Depends how well the battery 777s work out. I've heard there's teething issues but if they settle out then perhaps an order for more of them by TfW/Merseyrail would quicken that process, I agree the actual through running is probably more like 2035+. Integrating the ticketing better would still be helpful. Especially like you say if you can go from Liverpool to Chester via Port sunlight and swap onto a tfw service and it all just work.