Edinburgh tram to go to city centre after all

[jopsuk]

Edinburgh Evening News link.

So, the political games coninue. What a farce.

 

[90019]

For those who live and/or work in Edinburgh;
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/WW3VGZS

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I will admit that I didn't see that coming!

But the sheer commonsense of completing the system at least as far as the City Centre is the only meaningful decision (other than abandoning the whole thing, which is not my preference).

 

[LexyBoy]

"It's going all the way to Ocean Terminal!
No, we're digging it up!
No, it's going to Haymarket!
No, it's going to the moon!
Tram? What tram?"

Make your bloody mind up people!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think that a certain Alexander Eliot Anderson Salmond will be none too happy with the SNP councillors in Edinburgh in terms of the image that will attach itself to the SNP as a national party in terms of political fitness for public office.

 

[AlterEgo]

This really is an appalling farce. It depresses me every time I hear about it on the news. Edinburgh is such a great city that it deserves better than this ridiculous political game.

I look forward to riding on the trams - when I'm fifty probably!

 

[Class172]

Can't they just make their mind up! It's downright ridiculous and I'd think that the people responsible for making these desisions will be very unpopular now. I wonder when it'll actually be finished!?

 

[jopsuk]

minds have been made up. Decision has been made. St Andrews Square (near Waverly) to the Airport it is. I wonder if the construction will include any provision for future extension, or whether it'll all be plain line where possible on the basis that any more is politically unlikely (despite all the English modern-era tramways having been extended)

 

[Eng274]

The SNP have taken a pounding recently regardless of how this situation is interpreted. The SNP candidate at the recent council by-election was all about getting a proper referendum and enquiry into the trams nonsense - at least the thrice-weekly leaflets through my letterbox said so (naive.com). I am highly peeved off that the government that once wanted to cancel the whole lot but apparently couldn't, are now encouraging a city centre completion now they have the majority to cancel the lot, and arrange an extended payback period for the funding that has already been spent.

It makes me wonder if the council always knew, or never knew at all, about the funding payback clause set by the Scottish Government if not completed, as it hasn't always been public knowledge IIRC. And if they knew about it from the offset, why not declare so, so that when all these delays emerged, the strings could be cut and the money more or less paid back fully to the government?

The council's handling of this has been nothing short of pitiful, and why they were ever granted permission to go ahead with this massive financially-demanding project in the first place smacks of lacking in due diligence from both the council and the parliament. (Is this council complemented with the chartered engineers qualified to responsibly manage such a massive-scale project? What experience of dealing with projects, contractors and the necessary legalities do the councillors have? Is being photographed with some smiling OAPs the best basis for electing someone who will have say over millions of pounds worth of public funds? Were the TiE executives hired on a merit basis?)

I love my city, but this makes me so, so angry. Makes me wonder if the extra two hours commuting to/from work in Glasgow is better than the convenience of simply moving there *shudder*

 

[WatcherZero]

They knew about it at least in part because they were aware of the risk that if they sold the surplus trams to fund works the Government would claw the money back, thats why theyve prefered lease over sale. I dont think they believed the Hollyrood would attempt to reclaw money from cutting the line short though its the government which borrowed the £500m in the form of a mortgage to fund the bulk of construction with only £55m raised by the Council itself.

 

[Aictos]

I support the trams in Edinburgh BUT it has been so badly managed it's put back any potential for Aberdeen or Glasgow to re-introduce them - if it had been managed properly and done section by section by the time the 3rd or 4th section was being built locals indeed the rest of Scotland could see the benefits of such a system.

Ideally, one place I would like to see served if possible as part of the Tram network is Newcraighall as I believe a Park and Ride is in operation there?

 

[Eng274]

I support the trams in Edinburgh BUT it has been so badly managed it's put back any potential for Aberdeen or Glasgow to re-introduce them - if it had been managed properly and done section by section by the time the 3rd or 4th section was being built locals indeed the rest of Scotland could see the benefits of such a system.

Ideally, one place I would like to see served if possible as part of the Tram network is Newcraighall as I believe a Park and Ride is in operation there?

That was the original plan, with extra lines running to the Western General Hospital and Granton, plus a line out to Little France and the RIE. Both were canned and the tram LINE (not a 'network' as was initially mooted) was agreed for the self-same £545m that was previously estimated to fund the entire network. A line to Newcraighall was talked about I believe, but didn't get beyond the idea stage. There is also a railway station at Newcraighall already, which provides a fast, twice-hourly rail service to the city centre.

I can't see why glasgow would need trams TBH, there's the subway, suburban rail network and a comprehensive bus network, which a piecemeal replacement of the latter (as in Edinburgh) would cause more detriment than improvement to both road-going modes of transport.

 

[kylemore]

The word "Tram" is now so "toxic" in Scotland there is no Chance of further schemes this side of 2050!
The SNP are firmly pro-road although paying lip service to heavy rail investment (largely started under lab/lib coalition.
This saddens me as a SNP supporter, what disgusts me tho is their association with Souter - engineering his knighthood in return for cash.
Expect a situation to be brought about where Souter can be portrayed as saviour of the Edinburgh Trams in return for which Lothian Buses is handed to him on a plate.

 

[tbtc]

minds have been made up. Decision has been made. St Andrews Square (near Waverly) to the Airport it is. I wonder if the construction will include any provision for future extension, or whether it'll all be plain line where possible on the basis that any more is politically unlikely (despite all the English modern-era tramways having been extended)

Manchester has certainly had extensions, but I'm not so sure about the rest (Sheffield's trams have been running for seventeen years, but with no additional tracks and no additional trams - there is a plan for a "tram train" to Rotherham, but nothing 100%).

 

[radamfi]

The word "Tram" is now so "toxic" in Scotland there is no Chance of further schemes this side of 2050!
The SNP are firmly pro-road although paying lip service to heavy rail investment (largely started under lab/lib coalition.
This saddens me as a SNP supporter, what disgusts me tho is their association with Souter - engineering his knighthood in return for cash.
Expect a situation to be brought about where Souter can be portrayed as saviour of the Edinburgh Trams in return for which Lothian Buses is handed to him on a plate.

What's the point of Scottish devolution/independence if you get an Anglo-Saxon transport policy?

 

[Butts]

How much would it have cost to extend the existing rail line from Edinburgh Park which is a stones throw (in rail terms) to the Airport.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

How much would it have cost to extend the existing rail line from Edinburgh Park which is a stones throw (in rail terms) to the Airport.

The Edinburgh Airport Rail Link was budgetted at £550-£650 million five years ago.
This included re-aligning the Forth Bridge line under the airport and also a chord linking Gogar on the Linlithgow line - under the airport - to Kirkliston on the Queensferry - Linlithgow line.

 

[kylemore]

The Edinburgh Airport Rail Link was budgetted at £550-£650 million five years ago.
This included re-aligning the Forth Bridge line under the airport and also a chord linking Gogar on the Linlithgow line - under the airport - to Kirkliston on the Queensferry - Linlithgow line.

A simple 1 mile branch off the main line north of the Gyle would have cost a fraction of that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What's the point of Scottish devolution/independence if you get an Anglo-Saxon transport policy?

True, however I'd settle for a Saxon transport policy - the Tram system I travelled on in Dresden (in Saxony!) was excellent.
Oh if only we could sack all the Brits and put Germans in charge instead! LOL

 

[tbtc]

A simple 1 mile branch off the main line north of the Gyle would have cost a fraction of that

Aye, but you'd struggle for paths through Haymarket (etc) - at least ten services an hour on the two track line from Haymarket to Edinburgh Park already - at least the trams would be in addition to existing train services

 

[Butts]

The Edinburgh Airport Rail Link was budgetted at £550-£650 million five years ago.
This included re-aligning the Forth Bridge line under the airport and also a chord linking Gogar on the Linlithgow line - under the airport - to Kirkliston on the Queensferry - Linlithgow line.

So this would have cost less than the Trams.....Unless...

That budget was as accurate as the one for the trams

 

[shinkansen1966]

This saddens me as a SNP supporter, what disgusts me tho is their association with Souter - engineering his knighthood in return for cash.

Does this explain why there's no plans to operate buses across Scotland as they are run here in London ?

 

[Eng274]

Does this explain why there's no plans to operate buses across Scotland as they are run here in London ?

Exactly. As part of the SNP's 2007(?) manifesto, it had dabbled with the idea of re-regulating buses, or at least using a TfL-style model of tendering. This was quietly dropped some time after, it was widely suspected that Mr Souter (who was already cosy with the SNP) had donated to the party to influence this.

 

[jon0844]

We badly need all councils to adopt the TfL way of managing buses.

Even though we've been lucky to get our local bus back to running all day, seven days a week, with increased services in the peak - not everyone is so lucky. What's more, every change is on a seemingly trial basis - so every six months they can change services, change the frequencies, curtail the routes or axe them completely.

Imagine how confusing this is to passengers, and then the ability to increase fares almost at any time (I realise it isn't like that, but it may seem so) with no consistency.

 

[shinkansen1966]

We badly need all councils to adopt the TfL way of managing buses.

Agreed.

Sadly, we've let private companies run our buses. And it will be difficult to rest control back from them. Especially when you get articles like this from the industry which talk of 'threats'.
http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=5549&categoryid=0

 

[Butts]

Agreed.

Sadly, we've let private companies run our buses. And it will be difficult to rest control back from them. Especially when you get articles like this from the industry which talk of 'threats'.
http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=5549&categoryid=0

To be fair First Bus in my area provide quite a good service and are reliable.

I catch one nearly every day and they are rarely late or not turn up at all.

 

[jon0844]

The operators may run a good service, but every 6 months they can decide to increase services or cut them. Some are subsidised and may remain (unless that is cut), but it's too hit and miss for people to rely on.

Train services can change, but that's usually a long winded process and there's a lot of consultation. It's also quite rare to see a service cut completely, or the times to drastically change. But that's what can happen with the buses.

Let's imagine you move somewhere with the intention to be green and use buses to get aorund, and to get to work. Then you find after a year that your bus is cut and replaced with absolutely nothing. What do you do then? Get a car or walk? Or perhaps you move.

People in London take buses for granted but everyone else quite rightly sees them in a rather more negative light most of the time; irrespective of how clean and reliable a bus is or how friendly the staff are. You never know if it's going to last!

 

[scotsman]

I think that a certain Alexander Eliot Anderson Salmond will be none too happy with the SNP councillors in Edinburgh in terms of the image that will attach itself to the SNP as a national party in terms of political fitness for public office.

At least the image that'll now be attached will be the correct one!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ideally, one place I would like to see served if possible as part of the Tram network is Newcraighall as I believe a Park and Ride is in operation there?

Newcraighall serves the eastern end of the city, towards Musselburgh, Joppa, Craigentinny etc, as well as the retail park there. I suppose you could call it a park and ride, but I've not heard of many folk use it as such

 

[Bill EWS]

I would hope that the word 'Trams' doesn't become so toxic that no further schemes will be built. I would hope that other councils will have learned much from this sad situation and make sure their plans are well thought out before being given the go-ahead. It's a shame too that it has to be used as a political tool and some people using it to suit their own political bias.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I would hope that the word 'Trams' doesn't become so toxic that no further schemes will be built. I would hope that other councils will have learned much from this sad situation . . . . .

I strongly agree.
One of the 'lessons' that could be learned, however, remains largely un-solved: How can any planner determine what underground utilities, abandoned workings and other obstacles or hazards lie under our streets?
We still have an almost entirely uncharted mixture of ad hoc infrastructure under the roads. Clearly, no one would choose to place all these services in inconsistent structures under our busy roads nowadays, but that is where we find ourselves. That is, to a great extent, where Edinburgh incurred unplanned costs and delays, and where any future project elsewhere may incur similar expense.

Technology has provided some tools to assist in sub-surface mapping, but it has a long way to go before it could fully inform any Quantity Surveyor.

Edinburgh's "fault" will continue to be the poor Contract T&Cs which allowed the unexpected to become the liability of the City and then the subject of litigations, and I'm sure that "lesson" can be learnt. But the underlying mess below our streets presents an intractible challenge.

-------------------------

We badly need all councils to adopt the TfL way of managing buses.

Even though we've been lucky to get our local bus back to running all day, seven days a week, . . . . .

Should this post have appeared in another thread?

 

[317 forever]

Having the tram run from the Airport just to Haymarket would have been the worst of all worlds. Expensive to build, and still not running to the city centre. Edinburgh is a popular place with continentals, many of whom have trams in their home cities. They would have been confused arriving at Edinburgh Airport as to why the tram did not go to the city centre.