Thameslink core broken - 13th July 26 - what could be done to improve things?

[Silver Cobra]

Not trying to defend the indefensible here, but Earlswood & Salfords do also get a half-hourly Southern service in the peaks, plus both are close to a main road with frequent buses paralleling the railway, plus even the odd GWR making extra calls when all else fails, if rarely.

Ifield and Littlehaven are 100% reliant on TL, and then (often non-existent) extra calls on Southern when the Peterboroughs go down.

As mentioned upthread, Biggleswade, Arlesey &c probably come out worst of all with no such luxuries.

I'd say Arlesey and Sandy have the worst of it in these situations for the GN side. While it isn't much extra, Huntingdon, St Neots and Biggleswade have the additional peak services to/from Kings Cross, while Arlesey and Sandy are fully reliant on the Peterborough - Horsham services. Sometimes additional stops at Arlesey and Sandy are added to those peak trains during disruption, but not often.

 

[marshlinker]

I also don't understand the fixation with through services, when passengers can be seen to have completely changed over between the two sides. It's not as if those from Hertfordshire are that keen to get to Gatwick - many destinations are served from both Gatwick, and from Luton/Stansted, and people from each side choose their nearest airport rather than crossing London to the other.

You need to look at Airport Passenger Numbers (CAA figures rounded):
1) Heathrow 84 million
2) Gatwick 43 million
3) Manchester 32 million
4) Stansted 30 million
5) Luton 18 million
6) City 4 million
So Gatwick is roughly 11/2 times Stansted and 2 1/2 times Luton
Gatwick is the busiest rail station in the se region outside London with 22 million entries exits (ORR figures rounded).
That makes it 22nd busiest nationally, outside London it ranks just behind Edinburgh.
That's why serving it is important even from Cambridge and Bedford.

 

[Benjwri]

Gatwick is the busiest rail station in the se region outside London with 22 million entries exits (ORR figures rounded).
That makes it 22nd busiest nationally, outside London it ranks just behind Edinburgh.
That's why serving it is important even from Cambridge and Bedford.

And yet if we look at the Origin Destination Matrix only 24,694 people travel from Bedford to Gatwick, about 68 people a day, and only 38,775 from Cambridge to Gatwick, 106 a day. In the scheme of Gatwick passenger numbers these are tiny proportions, and we have no idea how many choose the faster GN/EME train to London.

 

[marshlinker]

And yet if we look at the Origin Destination Matrix only 24,694 people travel from Bedford to Gatwick, about 68 people a day, and only 38,775 from Cambridge to Gatwick, 106 a day. In the scheme of Gatwick passenger numbers these are tiny proportions, and we have no idea how many choose the faster GN/EME train to London.

If you look at Luton Airport Parkway as an origin, Gatwick Airport has more passengers than any station North of Bedford on the MML.

 

[sharpener]

The Royston loop is not disused. In particular it is used daily during the railhead treatment season. It isn't doable anyway because the space is constrained by the Old North Road bridge and the Green Drift foot crossing, which doesn't provide enough length for turnouts and 240m platforms.

We corresponded about this loop a while back. IIRC the issue is that you could recess a down stopping train there to be overtaken but would have to move it to the platform subsequently which would take even more time. Or maybe it is not long enough anyway?

 

[Magdalia]

IIRC the issue is that you could recess a down stopping train there to be overtaken but would have to move it to the platform subsequently which would take even more time. Or maybe it is not long enough anyway?

The Royston loop can't be used by passenger trains because it doesn't have overhead line.

 

[sharpener]

The Royston loop can't be used by passenger trains because it doesn't have overhead line.

Details, details... That's small beer compared with other suggestions on this thread e.g. (re)instating the originally planned 3rd and 4th platforms at Letchworth or new through roads at Finsbury Park. Would it help in principal?

Another thought, the flyover route at Hitchin runs alongside the down slow for quite a distance, would a second crossover allow it to be used for overtaking? IIRC there was talk of a lack of crossovers further south though I can't immediately identify it.

 

[bramling]

Details, details... That's small beer compared with other suggestions on this thread e.g. (re)instating the originally planned 3rd and 4th platforms at Letchworth or new through roads at Finsbury Park. Would it help in principal?

A bit, yes it would, as it offers another option to signallers.

But it isn’t a magic bullet - and it won’t really help the big problem which is late-running Thameslink services delaying Fen Line services, as by Royston the damage is done. You’d just be adding more delay to the Thameslink which will then mean it will start back from Cambridge later.

 

[choochoochoo]

Could making the Arrival/Departure Line at Letchworth a passing point help ? It’s very rare that both that and the reception line are both occupied during the day. There are points to access it in both up and down directions and it can easily fit a 12 car.

 

[sharpener]

A bit, yes it would, as it offers another option to signallers.

But it isn’t a magic bullet - and it won’t really help the big problem which is late-running Thameslink services delaying Fen Line services, as by Royston the damage is done. You’d just be adding more delay to the Thameslink which will then mean it will start back from Cambridge later.

Well they can't both have priority, one has to go first. Clearly without a dynamic loop any overtaking manouevre is going to delay the Thameslink further, this occurs by the least amount if you recess it just before the Fen Line catches it up. It seems to me there are conceptual possibilities to do this at Hitchin, Letchworth and Royston (at least in the down direction) which would give you some choice if they are all available.

Letchworth seems to have a lot of space overall on the down side after the station so something ought to be possible there. Won't fix the length of time it takes them to detrain the pax from terminating trains though!

 

[Bald Rick]

A rather poor answer, I think. I would expect someone who works for the railways to be more concerned for passengers, especially when there are half a million journey's to and from at those stations.

sorry if it came over badly, and of course I’m concerned about passengers. What I meant was that contingency plans are designed around how to shift the most amount of people with the resources at your disposal (whether those resources are trains, crew or working infrastrcture). Inevitably there are compromises, and it is better for those compromises to land on as few people as possible.

 

[Horizon22]

Elizabeth Line does have its' own crewing limitations. A train that has arrived from Maidenhead at Whitechapel might not be driven by a driver that signs Shenfield. If an incident takes place between Whitechapel and Abbey Wood, that train is a bit ****ed. They sign Stratford, but not beyond. This is a relatively rare occurence, and it's not happened enough times that it's even clear what the procedure might be, but the frequency between Hayes and Reading can be screwed for a while if something like this happens. When Shenfield is blocked, trains divert to Abbey Wood but they're never reintroduced into service from there. So the next working is cancelled (when a reintroduced service from Abbey Wood could have run to time from Whitechapel), and the return eastbound as well.

Running to Stratford is perfectly possible, and trains could use P5 or P8. Not ideal but you could at least detrain, and go back towards Paddington as a special service or just ECS.

Occasionally trains are introduced from Abbey Wood that are meant to start from Shenfield (again normally as independent shuttles), but it can't maintain the entire frequency; you've only got 2 platforms there of course and the regular service needs to run with platform reoccupancies of just a few minutes.

On the day of the Stratford fire, they were (pretty foolishly in my opinion) running to Abbey Wood and forming ECS to Old Oak Common. Sod all the stations between Abbey Wood and Paddington, also suffering from severe delays due to the incident. One might've expected the common sense option to run them in service. I think at one point I spotted 3 out of service trains in the core in a row between Abbey and Paddington. Not passenger friendly decision making in my opinion! To make matters worse, some of the actual booked trains from Abbey Wood were starting short at Paddington.

Again platform capacity will be a problem here as will congestion within the CCOS - utilising a few platforms at the main Paddington station will alleviate this.

With regards to Letchworth, I was thinking of a slewing of the Down line, and one or two of the Arrival/Departure / Reception lines being placed between the two running lines (rather than on the down side as now), perhaps (after room to hold a 12 car train) crossing the down line to reach the sidings, either with a headshunt or across to the existing exit road.
I wasn't thinking of overtaking being an option here, but a faster way of terminating with less conflicts coming back into service towards London.

Letchworth also seems to suffer with the train clearance also being rather slow generally, let alone ad-hoc.

And yet if we look at the Origin Destination Matrix only 24,694 people travel from Bedford to Gatwick, about 68 people a day, and only 38,775 from Cambridge to Gatwick, 106 a day. In the scheme of Gatwick passenger numbers these are tiny proportions, and we have no idea how many choose the faster GN/EME train to London.

Gatwick has people coming from all over, so frankly I'm not sure Origin - Destination matrixes are going to be that useful, except for where airport staff live and commute by rail, which is likely to be much more local. It's an airport so it needs core London connectivity from all places, which it broadly gets through Thameslink and Southern/GX.

 

[izvor]

The Southern Service is a slow service to London and also requires changes if you want Thameslink, but it helps. Daytime and evenings the lack of Bedford service heavily effects journeys. Strangely the Southern Service runs within a few moments of the Thameslink service by the time you get to East Croydon.

The Buses are also much slower with lots of stops and going via East Surrey Hospital. It's not really an adequate replacement although GTR seem to think they are fine.

People have been sold a direct fast train service to London and Gatwick, not change buses and trains all over the place. Perhaps they should reduce fares for the level of inconvenience.

All valid points and as stated I'm not trying to defend anything, just point out that at the very bottom of the disruption pile there are occasional scraps to elevate the pecking order a tad. I'd add that the Southern extras are also slowed by the joining/splitting at Redhill, but at times of disruption they are, well, amazingly popular, as I'm sure you know too well.

A friend has had to move home from near one of these stations due to his dire TL commuting reliability. Delay repay does not begin to cover his losses, and I know for certain he is far from alone. Reducing fares is a fair point but too late for some.

 

[Horizon22]

Getting on /off Ilford is slow and restricts capacity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2026 ==

It is also not currently feasible for Elizabeth line services from the West. Would have to shunt East of Ilford, which is mostly what Chadwell Heath Turnback is used for.

The ongoing issue is that whilst Hornsey and Cricklewood are available no doubt the crew diagrams do not make that as easy a proposition as Old Oak Common is for XR.

 

[Taunton]

I've noticed this thread in passing, as I don't make use of Thameslink very often. But I did last night.

Having spent the day with DLR and the Liz Line without issue, we came up at 6pm onto the northbound platform at Farringdon, to find the next service, to Cambridge, cancelled, as so often described above, and across the tracks the southbound looking almost dangerously overcrowded, with seemingly further cancellations. It was difficult to understand more of what was going on as continuous, separate announcements on both platforms were sufficiently loud to overlay each other to a meaningless babble, added to by train announcements when the doors were open, but most seemed just staccato boilerplate rather than any useful running information.

Returning several hours later, exactly the same, the departure board at St Pancras just laced with cancellations, and surprising numbers still around. The Farringdon platforms, both ways, do appear not fit for purpose for the passenger volumes handled, being at points extremely narrow and having to act like a terminal concourse with so many waiting for such a wide range of infrequent destinations. It doesn't help having passengers spread out along them, only for a shorter 8-car to arrive and large numbers then pushing up to the end doors.

 

[al78]

The Farringdon platforms, both ways, do appear not fit for purpose for the passenger volumes handled, being at points extremely narrow and having to act like a terminal concourse with so many waiting for such a wide range of infrequent destinations.

I have found them not too bad when catching the Brighton or Horsham bound services, where they get bad is when there are multiple cancellations so you have double the number of passengers waiting to board half the normal number of trains.

 

[Taunton]

I have found them not too bad when catching the Brighton or Horsham bound services, where they get bad is when there are multiple cancellations so you have double the number of passengers waiting to board half the normal number of trains.

I must have been unlucky previously as well. Sometimes making the trip just from St Pancras to Farringdon, the entrance at St P is at the back, whereas the exit to the Liz at Farringdon is at the front, leading to trying to walk the length of the Farringdon platform, commonly a real obstacle course.

 

[Magdalia]

And yet if we look at the Origin Destination Matrix only 24,694 people travel from Bedford to Gatwick, about 68 people a day, and only 38,775 from Cambridge to Gatwick, 106 a day. In the scheme of Gatwick passenger numbers these are tiny proportions, and we have no idea how many choose the faster GN/EME train to London.

Long distance Thameslink flows are not just about Bedford-Gatwick and Cambridge-Gatwick.

One of the useful features of the origin destination matrix dataset is the regional tag, which makes it fairly easy to pick out by eye the biggest long distance Thameslink flows. I have identified the following South East-East of England flows bigger than 10k one way journeys:

38775 Gatwick-Cambridge
35426 Gatwick-St Albans
26884 Brighton-Cambridge
26191 Gatwick-Luton Airport Parkway
24694 Gatwick-Bedford
22222 Brighton-St Albans
17119 Brighton-Bedford
15249 Gatwick-Stevenage
13679 Brighton-Luton Airport Parkway
13886 Gatwick-Peterborough
12896 Brighton-Luton
12728 Gatwick-Luton
11375 Gatwick-Harpenden

There is a big asymmetry between the South East, where Gatwick and Brighton are the only really important stations outside London, and the East of England, where lots of stations on all routes have reasonable flows, especially with Gatwick.

 

[Bald Rick]

I must have been unlucky previously as well. Sometimes making the trip just from St Pancras to Farringdon, the entrance at St P is at the back, whereas the exit to the Liz at Farringdon is at the front, leading to trying to walk the length of the Farringdon platform, commonly a real obstacle course.

Not doubtign the obstacle course, but the St P platforms are more or less right in the middle of the train.

 

[Taunton]

Not doubting the obstacle course, but the St P platforms are more or less right in the middle of the train.

Sort of, although with an 8-car you are pretty much at the back. One of the issues with Thameslink is the variable length trains - at Farringdon northbound does the entire 8-car stop ahead of the entrance, and wide waiting area? I once, way back in 319 days, actually missed a southbound 4-car set there, I had come down from the westbound Circle platform, whose nearest point is at the north end, the 319 ran past me at quite some speed, and by the time I had hot-footed forward - it was just closing doors.

Could we have some "only 12 car trains stop here" notices? Before we laugh, the Chicago elevated L has similar, where longer trains are only run in peak hours.

 

[GordonT]

It's a long time since the "solution" to the initial fiasco of the Peterborough/Cambridge-Horsham/Brighton service was devised. At the time great store was placed on ensuring that trains consistently "presented" on time on entering the core. The prospect of Cambridge-Brighton being suspended in its entirety at the first whiff of disruption, I don't think was even whispered as an option. Since then LNER and the open access operators have largely soaked up what little surplus capacity remained at King's Cross for disruption mitigation.
Perhaps what we have now will just need to be accepted as the least worst option?

 

[Mattplans]

Could we have some "only 12 car trains stop here" notices?

On the platforms they have marked zones for the train. I'm assuming the 12 car train has zones not applicable to an 8 car. They also announce how many coaches a train has first which is a notable difference to other tocs. (ie: Platform 1 for the 19:32 Thameslink Service to Brighton. This train is formed of 12 coaches. Calling at..........)

 

[Bald Rick]

Sort of, although with an 8-car you are pretty much at the back. One of the issues with Thameslink is the variable length trains - at Farringdon northbound does the entire 8-car stop ahead of the entrance, and wide waiting area? I once, way back in 319 days, actually missed a southbound 4-car set there, I had come down from the westbound Circle platform, whose nearest point is at the north end, the 319 ran past me at quite some speed, and by the time I had hot-footed forward - it was just closing doors.

Could we have some "only 12 car trains stop here" notices? Before we laugh, the Chicago elevated L has similar, where longer trains are only run in peak hours.

Regardless of length, the middle of the train is always in the middle of the platform, this applies to all 5 core stations (incl London Bridge). This is because of the accesible humps in the middle of the train for level boarding.

If it is 12 car, it fills the platform and to end (except at Blackfriars northbound, where there is a bit of extra unused platform forward of the FLU (12 car) stopping point.)

If 8 car, it will stop two cars from the end of the platform (front and back).

 

[Magdalia]

One of the issues with Thameslink is the variable length trains - at Farringdon northbound does the entire 8-car stop ahead of the entrance, and wide waiting area?

In the Thameslink core where trains stop is governed by the position of the Harrington Humps, which are halfway along the platforms.

A 12 car train occupies all of the platform with the Harrington Hump at cars 6 and 7, the middle of a 12 car train. An 8 car train occupies where cars 3-10 would be on a 12 car train, so that cars 4 and 5, the middle of an 8 car train, are at the Harrington Hump.

 

[jon0844]

In the Thameslink core where trains stop is governed by the position of the Harrington Humps, which are halfway along the platforms.

A 12 car train occupies all of the platform with the Harrington Hump at cars 6 and 7, the middle of a 12 car train. An 8 car train occupies where cars 3-10 would be on a 12 car train, so that cars 4 and 5, the middle of an 8 car train, are at the Harrington Hump.

The position of the doors is clearly marked on the platforms throughout the core, but the first and last set (4 for 2 coaches front, 4 for 2 coaches rear) could perhaps say '12 car only' to make it clearer. The displays do show the number of coaches.

It's also wise to double check incoming trains to see if it's 7000xx or 7001xx on the front just in case the train has been swapped out and the CIS not updated. Doesn't happen often, but it DOES happen.

 

[bramling]

Long distance Thameslink flows are not just about Bedford-Gatwick and Cambridge-Gatwick.

One of the useful features of the origin destination matrix dataset is the regional tag, which makes it fairly easy to pick out by eye the biggest long distance Thameslink flows. I have identified the following South East-East of England flows bigger than 10k one way journeys:

38775 Gatwick-Cambridge
35426 Gatwick-St Albans
26884 Brighton-Cambridge
26191 Gatwick-Luton Airport Parkway
24694 Gatwick-Bedford
22222 Brighton-St Albans
17119 Brighton-Bedford
15249 Gatwick-Stevenage
13679 Brighton-Luton Airport Parkway
13886 Gatwick-Peterborough
12896 Brighton-Luton
12728 Gatwick-Luton
11375 Gatwick-Harpenden

There is a big asymmetry between the South East, where Gatwick and Brighton are the only really important stations outside London, and the East of England, where lots of stations on all routes have reasonable flows, especially with Gatwick.

I’d be curious to know who makes up the journeys like Luton-Brighton and Bedford-Brighton, and even St Albans-Brighton and Cambridge-Brighton. Do we presume this is heavily skewed by summer weekend leisure journeys? Otherwise I can’t see why there should be such a significant flow to Brighton. And as far as the inverse goes, can’t imagine many people in Brighton fancying a day out in the utter dumps that are Luton and Bedford!

All these flows are presumably small change compared with flows to/from London.

 

[Recessio]

Sort of, although with an 8-car you are pretty much at the back. One of the issues with Thameslink is the variable length trains - at Farringdon northbound does the entire 8-car stop ahead of the entrance, and wide waiting area? I once, way back in 319 days, actually missed a southbound 4-car set there, I had come down from the westbound Circle platform, whose nearest point is at the north end, the 319 ran past me at quite some speed, and by the time I had hot-footed forward - it was just closing doors.

Could we have some "only 12 car trains stop here" notices? Before we laugh, the Chicago elevated L has similar, where longer trains are only run in peak hours.

On the platforms they have marked zones for the train. I'm assuming the 12 car train has zones not applicable to an 8 car. They also announce how many coaches a train has first which is a notable difference to other tocs. (ie: Platform 1 for the 19:32 Thameslink Service to Brighton. This train is formed of 12 coaches. Calling at..........)

I believe (though I'd need to check tomorrow) that southbound, the front of an 8 car stops at boarding zone B on the platform, whereas a 12 car extends to boarding zone A. I can't remember if those zones are marked on the train diagram on the PIS though.

 

[jon0844]

I believe (though I'd need to check tomorrow) that southbound, the front of an 8 car stops at boarding zone B on the platform, whereas a 12 car extends to boarding zone A

Yes, that's right.. but it could made a little more obvious.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’d be curious to know who makes up the journeys like Luton-Brighton and Bedford-Brighton, and even St Albans-Brighton and Cambridge-Brighton. Do we presume this is heavily skewed by summer weekend leisure journeys?

I do St Albans - Brighton a few times a year, never at weekends. One of my friends goes about once a month, family / football. Another two have kids at University down there and they go by train to visit (and vice versa). Almost certainly a higher level in summer (of course), but based on this sample of 4 Albanians there is good year round flow.

 

[Recessio]

Yes, that's right.. but it could made a little more obvious.

What would you recommend?