Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[NCT]

There's obviously unavoidable faff with international travel. It was the suggestion of applying the airport model at Euston that made my fingers over excited.

 

[Mikey C]

Although, for all the faults of the current set up, it does incur far less waiting around than a normal international airport. Every time I’ve used Eurostar I’ve been whizzed through security and border control and onto the train in around an hour, save for the first couple of times I travelled when I rocked up far earlier than necessary and had to wait for the queue to open. They also have the bonus of being far more relaxed about taking food and drink through security, as I found out when I walked through border control holding a meal deal.

Contrast that with my trips by air and I’ve usually spent the same amount of time just sitting around or waiting in a queue.

I had a VERY slow wait for security last year coming back early morning from Amsterdam, where the staff arrived ridiculously late

 

[Zomboid]

There's obviously unavoidable faff with international travel. It was the suggestion of applying the airport model at Euston that made my fingers over excited.

The concept of separating arrivals from departures at a station like Euston makes a lot of sense though. Kings Cross makes some efforts in that direction, and in my limited experience that seems to flow quite well, with arriving passengers directed to the plaza out the front with the tube etc, and departures congregating on the concourse.

 

[NCT]

The concept of separating arrivals from departures at a station like Euston makes a lot of sense though. Kings Cross makes some efforts in that direction, and in my limited experience that seems to flow quite well, with arriving passengers directed to the plaza out the front with the tube etc, and departures congregating on the concourse.

King's Cross isn't really separated. The entry gates are just at a perpendicular angle to the exit gates.

 

[Zomboid]

King's Cross isn't really separated. The entry gates are just at a perpendicular angle to the exit gates.

Not physically separated, but signage and gate direction (plus the bridge access) is designed to keep the flows apart.

 

[martin butler]

I see all the talk has been about extra designations in Europe, but could continental operators, as long as the trains used fitted british loading gauge, operate services to say, Edinburgh,Cardiff, Manchester, etc, from mainland europe, say a berlin to Edinburgh, with german customs, carrying out checks on behalf of the UK,before boarding?

 

[SynthD]

Has anyone, ideally professionals, published an idea of what upstairs arrivals would look like? Does it need a funnel for police to see everyone?

could continental operators, as long as the trains used fitted british loading gauge, operate services to say, Edinburgh,Cardiff, Manchester, etc, from mainland europe, say a berlin to Edinburgh, with german customs, carrying out checks on behalf of the UK,before boarding?

No, the juxtaposed controls means both UK and Schengen staff must be present.

 

[JamesT]

I see all the talk has been about extra designations in Europe, but could continental operators, as long as the trains used fitted british loading gauge, operate services to say, Edinburgh,Cardiff, Manchester, etc, from mainland europe, say a berlin to Edinburgh, with german customs, carrying out checks on behalf of the UK,before boarding?

Physically it's possible, way back the infrastructure for Regional Eurostar was implemented. But previous threads have suggested there isn't the demand to make it worthwhile to run through services. I think it's quite telling that Eurostar don't appear to have ever tried to resurrect it in the 30 years they've been running.
As @SynthD notes, the juxtaposed controls for current services involved UK Border Force being stationed at the European end, that would have to be replicated for any future locations. You would also need similar border controls as at St Pancras in each UK station you're going to send these services to.

 

[zwk500]

I see all the talk has been about extra designations in Europe, but could continental operators, as long as the trains used fitted british loading gauge, operate services to say, Edinburgh,Cardiff, Manchester, etc, from mainland europe, say a berlin to Edinburgh, with german customs, carrying out checks on behalf of the UK,before boarding?

For fairly obvious political reasons, the UK Home Office is extremely unlikely to ever authorise a foreign police/border force to act in the capacity of approving entry to the UK.
Customs checks are carried out at the UK end at St Pancras - you walk through the declaration channels just before exiting the secure area, with UK Officials present to intercept if they need/want to. It's the passport/border checks that are juxtaposed.

In theory, with more advanced biometric controls, it may be seen as acceptable for the actual checks to be remote (i.e. the Passport images are transmitted from Berlin to a UK Office for verification) but given there will always be some machine error or edge case, I would imagine any juxtaposed border post will always require someone from the UK agencies there in person.

I think the best that might be hoped for in the medium- term would be that the Home Office may agree to departures with a low frequency and further into Europe being staffed by appropriate officials from the UK Embassy. But even that is pretty unlikely because of the high additional costs, which would then impact on any prospective operator's cost base for fare-setting.

 

[Snow1964]

Italo has ordered 26 trains (plus 14 options) from Siemens

Don't think they are for Channel tunnel routes initially (although options are clearly for extra routes or services). But they are going to be quad voltage so clearly not just going to be used just in Germany (maintenance depot stated as Dortmond) otherwise why add the other European voltages

• Italo Holding orders 26 Velaro Multi System high-speed trains with an option for 14 additional units, designed for speeds of up to 320 km/h
• 30-year full-service contract including Railigent X and AI-based digital services
• Manufacturing in Krefeld and long-term maintenance at Siemens' own depot in Dortmund

Siemens Mobility has signed a contract with Italian high-speed rail operator Italo Holding covering 26 eight-car Velaro Multi System high-speed trains with an option for 14 additional units and a 30-year full-service agreement. Siemens Mobility will manufacture the Velaro trains at its facility in Krefeld, Germany. Siemens Mobility’s contract with Italo is worth approximately €3 billion.

The Velaro trains are eight-car trainsets with approximately 440 seats each. They operate at speeds of up to 320 kilometers per hour. The multi-system technology allows the trains to run under four different power supply systems: 1.5 and 3 kilovolt (kV) direct current (DC) as well as 15 and 25 kV alternating current (AC). The new trains will feature Starlink antenna integration, providing high-speed satellite internet connectivity for passengers.
The 30-year full-service agreement covers comprehensive maintenance at Siemens Mobility's own depot in Dortmund. Digital services, including the Railigent X platform and fleet monitoring, will support predictive maintenance and operational efficiency throughout the fleet's lifecycle.

Italo Orders Velaro High-Speed Trains from Siemens | Press | Company | Siemens

Siemens Mobility has signed a contract with Italian high-speed rail operator Italo Holding covering 26 eight-car Velaro Multi System high-speed trains ...

press.siemens.com

 

[zwk500]

Italo has ordered 26 trains (plus 14 options) from Siemens

Don't think they are for Channel tunnel routes initially (although options are clearly for extra routes or services). But they are going to be quad voltage so clearly not just going to be used just in Germany (maintenance depot stated as Dortmond) otherwise why add the other European voltages

Reuters Reporting first routes will be Munich-Cologne-Dortmund and Munich-Berlin-Hamburg https://www.reuters.com/business/it...l-with-siemens-buy-trains-germany-2026-07-20/

• Operations are planned to launch in mid-2028, running 50 daily services connecting ‌18 ⁠cities on the Munich-Cologne-Dortmund and Munich-Berlin-Hamburg corridors.

If you're running to Cologne, not including the 3KV DC & 25KV AC for potential future extensions to Belgium and Northern France at this stage would seem rather short-sighted. And if you've got 3KV DC, it's presumably not a lot more work to add a 1.5KV DC mode for potential Dutch or Southern French excursions either.

Does any reporting confirm which signalling systems they are being fitted with? that would give a clearer indication of potential future intentions.

 

[LLivery]

Physically it's possible, way back the infrastructure for Regional Eurostar was implemented. But previous threads have suggested there isn't the demand to make it worthwhile to run through services. I think it's quite telling that Eurostar don't appear to have ever tried to resurrect it in the 30 years they've been running.
As @SynthD notes, the juxtaposed controls for current services involved UK Border Force being stationed at the European end, that would have to be replicated for any future locations. You would also need similar border controls as at St Pancras in each UK station you're going to send these services to.

With the things like rebalancing of the economy, you'd think looking ahead and trying to induce demand from major British powerhouses would be sensible. I understand this decision was years ago now, but I found it and still find it, short sighted; it's exactly the kind of thinking which has held back half of the country. While we were in the EU, we should've applied for European funding to link HS1 & 2 together with a proper link as a part of TEN-T. Could've even had some of that planned freight to Barking all the way to North.

With the expansion of places on the continent and the plan of a TransPennine High Speed Line, I'd say an hourly international from Leeds calling at say Manchester Picc, Brum Int, Ebbsfleet, then through the tunnel, to destinations alternating with Paris, Amsterdam, Cologne, Geneva would work. I think we'll live to regret it.

 

[Zomboid]

With the expansion of places on the continent and the plan of a TransPennine High Speed Line, I'd say an hourly international from Leeds calling at say Manchester Picc, Brum Int, Ebbsfleet, then through the tunnel, to destinations alternating with Paris, Amsterdam, Cologne, Geneva would work. I think we'll live to regret it.

I don't think it'd be that high demand, but if there were a link then Birmingham to Paris/ Brussels (maybe one tph alternating between destinations) would probably justify it's existence.

 

[HSTEd]

Given that London can't sustain more than around 1tph to Paris, I am very sceptical Birmingham or anywhere else (even combined) could fill a path an hour to the continent in the absence of Schengen.

Given Euston and Kings Cross are only a few hundred metres apart, seems better to me to keep services concentrated to improve effective frequencies for various journey combinations than try to run point to point services.

 

[Zomboid]

Given that London can't sustain more than around 1tph to Paris, I am very sceptical Birmingham or anywhere else (even combined) could fill a path an hour to the continent in the absence of Schengen.

Given Euston and Kings Cross are only a few hundred metres apart, seems better to me to keep services concentrated to improve effective frequencies for various journey combinations than try to run point to point services.

I suppose we'll see how much more market there is when Virgin etc start running.

Going crayon mad, these imaginary Birmingham trains could be the vehicle to return a service to Ebbsfleet.

 

[zwk500]

I suppose we'll see how much more market there is when Virgin etc start running.

Going crayon mad, these imaginary Birmingham trains could be the vehicle to return a service to Ebbsfleet.

If you can't fill the train at Birmingham, it won't be worth running the extra distance. And if the train is full, it won't want to be stopping at Ebbsfleet.

A HS2 service starting at Manchester, calling at Birmingham Interchange only on the UK service might just have worked - 2x 1m pop (ish) cities, c.4h journey Manchester-Paris, needing 800-1000 pax a trip could have potentially made the sums work for a couple of early and late services (similar to how Amsterdam started). Especially if the trains could be serviced at Washwood Heath or rotated onto diagrams that finished in London the next day. But realistically that would have needed the borders to be relaxed to a point they simply won't be for a long while to avoid the cost of getting secured platforms set up.

In the end we haven't built the HS2 link, and trying to run international trains on the WCML classic is going to be a completely ludicrous idea even if the border controls were relaxed to the point of making it feasible to operate a service at a commercially viable rate.

 

[JamesT]

The market is presumably those people who are time/hassle-sensitive enough that transferring across from their current London terminus to St Pancras is too much for them, but not so much that they'd just take a direct flight from elsewhere in the UK to Europe. I'm not convinced that's an enormous number.

 

[cle]

And the French have their HS2 link (to Lyon, Marseille, Bordeaux) - and nothing uses that.

And I would wager traffic between those French cities to London/SE is far higher than Birmingham/Manchester to Paris. And we still don't have it actively... and the historical services were weekly and seasonal.

I imagine we'll see more Eurostar to Amsterdam first.

 

[signed]

And the French have their HS2 link (to Lyon, Marseille, Bordeaux) - and nothing uses that.

That is because of politics

SNCF could, assuming sufficient rolling stock, provide good and useful intersector services and it would be incredibly well used. But as per usual, they don’t want to provide useful service

 

[Bald Rick]

That is because of politics

SNCF could, assuming sufficient rolling stock, provide good and useful intersector services and it would be incredibly well used. But as per usual, they don’t want to provide useful service

But politics that is relatively easy to solve.

Unlike joinign Schengen, which is what would be needed for any UK Regional service to europe be viable.

 

[cle]

That is because of politics

SNCF could, assuming sufficient rolling stock, provide good and useful intersector services and it would be incredibly well used. But as per usual, they don’t want to provide useful service

No I meant as direct to London... as a counter-balance to HS2 to HS1 musing.

But I agree, domestically, SNCF's 'XC' offering is nothing like ours. Although the direct pednatic equivalent could be the old Olympia services!

 

[signed]

No I meant as direct to London... as a counter-balance to HS2 to HS1 musing.

There has been (before Brexit) quite a few Eurostar headed out to the southern part of France, mostly winter (only if booked as part of a Travelski package holiday) but some Sun services have happened with a shuffle at either Marne la vallée (Disneyland) or Lille. Of course, since Brexit, services got quickly scrapped.

Trenitalia is wanting to make a (mostly) token service from Milan to London for political reasons, which means Lyon and others would be served direct from London all year.

Eurostar has UK gov backing to start serving Geneva and Frankfurt somehow

Obviously those are more wet dream services than reality but all of those would use Interconnexion Est

 

[TheWierdOne]

Trenitalia is wanting to make a (mostly) token service from Milan to London for political reasons, which means Lyon and others would be served direct from London all year.

Eurostar has UK gov backing to start serving Geneva and Frankfurt somehow

Obviously those are more wet dream services than reality but all of those would use Interconnexion Est

To be honest the Milan service is less political and more likely practical for moving stock between maintenance locations. If you’re running a train that distance you may as well open it to passengers. The caveat is that for an infrequent once a day service a Lille shuffle is likely to be required on the inbound as it would be silly to build a border post and staff it with Border Force officials for a once or even twice a day service.

It’s important to note that Geneva and Frankfurt have the backing of not just the UK government but also the Swiss and German governments respectively, which means putting juxtaposed controls in at the necessary locations is unlikely to be politically difficult, and space constraints are less of an issue at these stations as they might be elsewhere.

Geneva has platforms 6/7 that are (relatively speaking) Eurostar-ready by virtue of their former use as the secure platforms for French services and the occasional use of spot checks for customs. Frankfurt Hbf has platform 23 which would be very easy to temporarily shut off from the rest of the station, and passengers could be processed in the adjoining building.

 

[cle]

I think these are way more likely than Manchester/Brum to Paris...

and while I would love more London to South of France / leisure services, the moves all seem to be towards the same big 3/4 cities (Rotterdam mention!) and then outside of France to the mid-distance hubs of Cologne, Frankfurt and Geneva.

Basel and Zurich might be after - Basel is 10 mins quicker than Geneva but a much smaller market. Zurich is an hour more and similar, ie they don't happen without one another.

Lyon to London might have some year-round demand but I don't think it fills a train. I'd combine a Lyon + MLV/Disney service as a year round starting point for viability - with seasonal extensions south. Bordeaux also comes up a lot - would be lovely but again I can't see tons of full trains all year - more seasonal, less business than Lyon, and more indirect.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course, since Brexit, services got quickly scrapped.

It was Covid wot did for them, not Brexit. Brexit didn’t help, though.

Also the costs. AIUI (from a ‘well placed source’) the ski trains in particular were very costly to operate, not least the cleaning and repair costs to to the interior after all nighter full of skiers and boarders.

Bordeaux also comes up a lot - would be lovely but again I can't see tons of full trains all year - more seasonal, less business than Lyon, and more indirect.

Bordeaux and the surrounding area has quite a lot of British expats, and I can see it working in the same way as the Provence / Marseille train did, eg couple of times a week. However that was before the Amsterdam market took off, which is much more lucrative and a more profitable use of the rolling stock at weekends.

 

[signed]

more likely practical for moving stock between maintenance locations

TI is getting a depot built in Paris, but probably will help anyways

Geneva has platforms 6/7 that are (relatively speaking) Eurostar-ready by virtue of their former use as the secure platforms for French services and the occasional use of spot checks for customs.

If you are talking about the tiny corridor that currently houses customs there, isn’t it the plan to get rid of it?
I remember reading something about it, and in any case it would need a very large amount of work (or finding somewhere else entirely) to make it large enough to have eGates and all the security outfit for any sizeable number of passengers.

Like with Basel where the French sector will (for sure) be gone and merged into the rest of the station in the next few years

 

[Sorcerer]

To be honest the Milan service is less political and more likely practical for moving stock between maintenance locations. If you’re running a train that distance you may as well open it to passengers. The caveat is that for an infrequent once a day service a Lille shuffle is likely to be required on the inbound as it would be silly to build a border post and staff it with Border Force officials for a once or even twice a day service.

I wouldn't expect a London to Milan service to have many passengers, but I do agree with opening it up to some form of revenue earning if it's an empty stock movement. I believe Trenitalia France has a Paris to Milan train alongside it's Lyon services as well for similar reasons. Of course this doesn't come with the border force requirements of a London service, so there's that.

 

[Krokodil]

Given that London can't sustain more than around 1tph to Paris

London can sustain it. Eurostar are charging £228+ for their cheapest single ticket tomorrow. They would have no trouble filling many more 374s at a lower price point, still making a profit.

I suspect that part of their reluctance to increase frequencies is concern about possible passenger congestion at St Pancras when EES finally starts. Congestion at St Pancras is not a reason that NoL services wouldn't be viable, and a different political climate regarding the EU and Schengen would improve the economics dramatically.

 

[D6130]

I wouldn't expect a London to Milan service to have many passengers, but I do agree with opening it up to some form of revenue earning if it's an empty stock movement. I believe Trenitalia France has a Paris to Milan train alongside it's Lyon services as well for similar reasons. Of course this doesn't come with the border force requirements of a London service, so there's that.

Don't count on that! There are an awful lot of UK expats in Northern and Central Italy.... possibly more than in the Dordogne!

 

[cle]

London can sustain it. Eurostar are charging £228+ for their cheapest single ticket tomorrow. They would have no trouble filling many more 374s at a lower price point, still making a profit.

I suspect that part of their reluctance to increase frequencies is concern about possible passenger congestion at St Pancras when EES finally starts. Congestion at St Pancras is not a reason that NoL services wouldn't be viable, and a different political climate regarding the EU and Schengen would improve the economics dramatically.

When I was in my early twenties, we would occasionally do a last minute Paris day trip or one-night trip - and it could be 70 quid booked a day or two before.

I'm not saying it would ever be as low today - but I think that level of spontaneous or more discretionary trip has certainly been priced away. Lack of much wage inflation hasn't helped either. There is a whole potential segment of travellers who wouldn't even consider it today, but I would think many young people (and also elderly!) would do.