Could the undamaged 158 vehicles from Talerddig be reformed?

[Caaardiff]

Moderator note: split from

Incident at Talerddig, Wales - 21/10/2024

will not state 'during leaf-fall season, test the rail adhesion levels by braking harder initially and then take your chances by easing off on the brake and if you miss the station, then fair enough'. Lol ! Thanks for the chuckle. Interestingly the braking instructions I have for a 158 during...

www.railforums.co.uk

Could the good ends be added to other 158's to make a 3 car?
IIRC the damaged ends on both units are both ends with an accessible toilet.

 

[D365]

This was discussed some months ago. It is unlikely that any form of ETCS ”through wiring” would exist at the cab ends *.

* EDIT: If, as has been purported recently (August 2026), the two ’orphaned’ 52 cars are redeployed away from TfW, the loss of ETCS functionality will not be an issue.

 

[Towers]

As one would assume they are most likely going to go for scrap after the investigation is finished there presumably is no hurry to release them?

Is it not considered likely that the two non-collision end cars might be reformed?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Is it not considered likely that the two non-collision end cars might be reformed?

Given they are due for replacement in the forthcoming 18 months or so that would seem somewhat unlikely the effort would be made to repair the vehicles.

 

[Towers]

Given they are due for replacement in the forthcoming 18 months or so that would seem somewhat unlikely the effort would be made to repair the vehicles.

Has it been established that they have received significant damage? TfW of course are in a somewhat better position than the rest of the TOCs running 158s (or indeed anything 15x), in that their fleet is due imminent replacement. That is not so for GWR, Northern, SWR etc etc, for whom 158s remain very valuable units and in short supply. If the vehicles can be repaired without massive expenditure it wouldn’t seem entirely unfeasible that the ROSCO might see a benefit in it?

 

[Wolfie]

Given they are due for replacement in the forthcoming 18 months or so that would seem somewhat unlikely the effort would be made to repair the vehicles.

I presume that if repair isn't cost-effective they will be stripped for parts.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This was discussed some months ago. It is unlikely that any form of ETCS ”through wiring” would exist at the cab ends.

Though (in theory) that's only a show-stopper for use on the Cambrian. Whilst TFW wouldn't have much use for a set that can't go up there, other operators wouldn't have that problem. GWR, SWR or Northern already have some three car 158/159 sets (indeed SWR & GWR are down a unit after Salisbury) so an additional hybrid set or two wouldn't be quite so difficult to integrate into their fleet.

I'm not arguing that it should happen or is likely to happen, but it isn't impossible. Think it's been mentioned on here before that the ETCS fitted cabs are quite different, so those vehicles would be better off sandwiched if they were to be used at all. Stripping for spares is more likely of course.

 

[Russel]

Would it be a big job to rip out the ETCS equipment and return to a standard 158 for somewhere like GWR?

 

[D365]

Would it be a big job to rip out the ETCS equipment and return to a standard 158 for somewhere like GWR?

I’m not personally familiar with the Ansaldo ETCS fitted to TfW 158/0s and Network Rail 97302-304. But my understanding is that they won’t be ’compatible’ with future ERTMS routes. Therefore, if Angel sees a future for their 158/0s beyond TfW, they will have to do something - whether that is upgrading the EVCs or removing ETCS entirely.

 

[Diedinium]

Don't know if this has already been mentioned but I saw a TfW 158 (not sure on number) at Bristol Barton Hill TMD - was half way poking out of the shed.

Maybe this is one of the damaged 158s from the Talerdig incident?

 

[CR165022]

I don't think it's been mentioned yet but at least one of the 158s has been moved from Worksop to Wolverton, so presumably they're going to be repaired.

 

[Belperpete]

I don't think it's been mentioned yet but at least one of the 158s has been moved from Worksop to Wolverton, so presumably they're going to be repaired.

For use where? Aren't all TfW's 158s due to be replaced by 197s soon?

I think TfW were probably glad to be shot of them from Mach, as the depot has been rather full of late, with large numbers of 158s in due to faulty air con, plus several 197s in for driver training (or ETCS fitment/proving?).

 

[TonyW590]

I don't think it's been mentioned yet but at least one of the 158s has been moved from Worksop to Wolverton, so presumably they're going to be repaired.

It is the two undamaged vehicles, one from each set, that have been. Both are 57xxx cars (a 158 is a 52xxx and a 57xxx) so not sure they will be of much use, other than spares.

 

[fgwrich]

It is the two undamaged vehicles, one from each set, that have been. Both are 57xxx cars (a 158 is a 52xxx and a 57xxx) so not sure they will be of much use, other than spares.

They may still be of use to form Hybrid units though, or if the Robo-Bog / PRM toilet can be installed into one vehicle. Is there much difference between the 52 / 57 cars on a 158 other than the toilet? Eg could two 57 cars work together with suitable modifications?

 

[Krokodil]

It is the two undamaged vehicles, one from each set, that have been. Both are 57xxx cars (a 158 is a 52xxx and a 57xxx) so not sure they will be of much use, other than spares.

Once stripped of ETCS there's no reason that they couldn't be inserted into one of the other sets to form a three car unit for whoever the new operator will be..

 

[starlight73]

Is there much difference between the 52 / 57 cars on a 158 other than the toilet? Eg could two 57 cars work together with suitable modifications?

The linked post below says that Northern had two 57xxx cars and they were usable, but they had to add a class 153 for the toilet? However I haven't read the thread in detail to verify it.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ling-stock-to-move.241346/page-3#post-6007968

 

[Siemens Staines]

Could the two 57xxx vehicles be leased to GWR to create two more 158/9s to assist their chronic unit shortage? Entirely coincidental is that 158768 is currently in Wolverton.

 

[Failed Unit]

They may still be of use to form Hybrid units though, or if the Robo-Bog / PRM toilet can be installed into one vehicle. Is there much difference between the 52 / 57 cars on a 158 other than the toilet? Eg could two 57 cars work together with suitable modifications?

In the past 57 cars have worked in pairs. Not sure what the legal situation is now. Probably lock the toilets and run them on short routes.

 

[Krokodil]

Could the two 57xxx vehicles be leased to GWR to create two more 158/9s to assist their chronic unit shortage?

The TfW fleet have non-standard engines. Better to avoid mixing and matching between the two types and send the 22 remaining units, plus two orphaned 57 cars all to a single operator.

 

[northernbelle]

The TfW fleet have non-standard engines. Better to avoid mixing and matching between the two types and send the 22 remaining units, plus two orphaned 57 cars all to a single operator.

The TfW units have Perkins engines with which GWR is very familiar - being fitted to their Class 165 and 166s.

 

[Krokodil]

The TfW units have Perkins engines with which GWR is very familiar - being fitted to their Class 165 and 166s.

Would you form units up from a mixture of Cummins-engined and Perkins-engined vehicles though?

 

[fgwrich]

Would you form units up from a mixture of Cummins-engined and Perkins-engined vehicles though?

I can’t see why not, it’s worked for Northern and East Midlands Trains / Railway for several years. I think there’s been a few hybrid units that way too.

 

[Siemens Staines]

The TfW fleet have non-standard engines. Better to avoid mixing and matching between the two types and send the 22 remaining units, plus two orphaned 57 cars all to a single operator.

I did wonder if there was some difference. I was thinking maybe more along the lines of door controls, but I know little about how the different TOCs 158s are configured. I had also assumed sandwiching the TfW vehicle in the middle of GWR vehicles would bypass issues relating to the TfW driving cabs being ETCS fitted, but again it could be more complicated than that.

 

[Krokodil]

I can’t see why not, it’s worked for Northern and East Midlands Trains / Railway for several years. I think there’s been a few hybrid units that way too.

Have they mixed engine types within one unit?

I did wonder if there was some difference. I was thinking maybe more along the lines of door controls, but I know little about how the different TOCs 158s are configured. I had also assumed sandwiching the TfW vehicle in the middle of GWR vehicles would bypass issues relating to the TfW driving cabs being ETCS fitted, but again it could be more complicated than that.

Whoever takes them on is going to want to strip the ETCS kit out. It's a complication they can do without.

 

[43096]

Would you form units up from a mixture of Cummins-engined and Perkins-engined vehicles though?

Different owners, too, of course.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Different owners, too, of course.

I wasn't aware of that. This would be appear to be the principal reason that my hypothesis is a complete non-starter.

 

[Caaardiff]

With TFW's 158's leaving, it would make more sense to fit the 57 ends to two of the current TFW 158's, assuming they are going to another operator.
How easy is it to make a 2 car 158 into a 3 car and is the investment worthwhile?

 

[Annetts key]

With TFW's 158's leaving, it would make more sense to fit the 57 ends to two of the current TFW 158's, assuming they are going to another operator.
How easy is it to make a 2 car 158 into a 3 car and is the investment worthwhile?

GWR have had formations made up of three car 158s, by splitting one two car and using the two units to expand other two car trains to be three car formations.

I don't know if they are still doing that or if it was just a temporary measure.

 

[CR165022]

GWR have had formations made up of three car 158s, by splitting one two car and using the two units to expand other two car trains to be three car formations.

I don't know if they are still doing that or if it was just a temporary measure.

They've still got 4 sets of those.

 

[Krokodil]

With TFW's 158's leaving, it would make more sense to fit the 57 ends to two of the current TFW 158's, assuming they are going to another operator.
How easy is it to make a 2 car 158 into a 3 car and is the investment worthwhile?

Assuming the ETCS kit has previously been ripped out? It's pretty easy, not autocoupler easy but I can't imagine it taking significantly more than an hour.