Why should I trust rail travel?

[Krokodil]

Perhaps that’s the crux of this? Employers/DfT wanting the penny (flat rate for xtra days worked) and the bun of never employing enough staff to put everything in the base roster?.

Yes, one Northern guard told me that they got time-and-a-quarter. No surprises that on one Sunday there were a total of three Lime Street guards rostered to work for the entire day.

 

[Shrop]

It depends. If it's 5:30pm and my daughter needs picking up from nursery at 6pm, sorry - I'm going to pick up my kid. If i have nothing better to do, sure, I might stay if the overtime is paid. If I have £50 tickets for a 7:45pm kickoff in the football, I'm going to leave, see you tomorrow.

People are entitled to a life outside of work.

You've summed it up really. I'm clearly old fashioned and my attitude is probably out of sync with many on this forum, but when I was younger I would always arrange my home life according to my work, including whatever flexibilities work might demand.

If work commitments meant I needed to do an extra hour or two after my normal shift, I would ring home and explain, and I simply wouldn't plan things that might be spoilt by being late, unless I was prepared to cancel them if absolutely necessary. So no way would I ever have planned to finish my shift at 5.30pm if someone at home was completely dependent on me to be somewhere at 6.00pm.

Yes of course there were flexibilities, others could sometimes cover for me if needed and I was certainly not a slave to work, but if customers were in genuine need, we would be prepared to make personal sacrifices within reason.

In some countries the work loyalty is similar to that today, but clearly not in the UK.

And that explains why UK rail travel has become a lottery, especially on Sundays.

 

[LMS 4F]

They don't, dedicated standby turns are covered by Rest Day Working.

Not according to my relative, they are in the Rosta when they have enough staff. The person has worked enough.

 

[35B]

You've summed it up really. I'm clearly old fashioned and my attitude is probably out of sync with many on this forum, but when I was younger I would always arrange my home life according to my work, including whatever flexibilities work might demand.

If work commitments meant I needed to do an extra hour or two after my normal shift, I would ring home and explain, and I simply wouldn't plan things that might be spoilt by being late, unless I was prepared to cancel them if absolutely necessary. So no way would I ever have planned to finish my shift at 5.30pm if someone at home was completely dependent on me to be somewhere at 6.00pm.

Yes of course there were flexibilities, others could sometimes cover for me if needed and I was certainly not a slave to work, but if customers were in genuine need, we would be prepared to make personal sacrifices within reason.

In some countries the work loyalty is similar to that today, but clearly not in the UK.

And that explains why UK rail travel has become a lottery, especially on Sundays.

Those choices don’t exist for many. The services people depend upon, especially for childcare, also have hard limits. And, just like rail staff, those hard limits are from people who care about their customers and their needs, but have their own constraints and lives to lead.

The issue here is not fundamentally about staff willingness to volunteer, but the provision of adequate resources to deliver the booked service by their employers. I don’t trust Sunday services because the railway is selling me something that it frequently doesn’t have the commitments in place that can assure delivery.

That’s a deeper story, full of shades of grey, and in which no organisation in the industry from DfT down emerges well. And blaming the front line staff just distracts from that

 

[Harpo]

if customers were in genuine need, we would be prepared to make personal sacrifices within reason.

I’m sure most would rise to a rare need if their personal circumstances allowed but not if it becomes normalised.

And that explains why UK rail travel has become a lottery, especially on Sundays.

The two are unconnected but, again, responsibility rests with the employment contract chosen by the employer.

 

[dk1]

Whereas in BR days, many staff reps kept a record of Sundays (and rest days) worked to share them fairly, such was the demand. When I offered a freight depot a 14 (?) hour short rest mileage turn on a railtour they said they’d ask staff reps - Who said they’d raffle the job!

Different times.

Rest Day and Sunday counts are still done by the driver reps one of which is released at my depot every month to compile and update. It’s hugely important.

 

[The Planner]

You've summed it up really. I'm clearly old fashioned and my attitude is probably out of sync with many on this forum, but when I was younger I would always arrange my home life according to my work, including whatever flexibilities work might demand.

If work commitments meant I needed to do an extra hour or two after my normal shift, I would ring home and explain, and I simply wouldn't plan things that might be spoilt by being late, unless I was prepared to cancel them if absolutely necessary. So no way would I ever have planned to finish my shift at 5.30pm if someone at home was completely dependent on me to be somewhere at 6.00pm.

Yes of course there were flexibilities, others could sometimes cover for me if needed and I was certainly not a slave to work, but if customers were in genuine need, we would be prepared to make personal sacrifices within reason.

In some countries the work loyalty is similar to that today, but clearly not in the UK.

And that explains why UK rail travel has become a lottery, especially on Sundays.

Work to live, not live to work.

 

[dk1]

Work to live, not live to work.

Oh I don’t know. For many of my colleagues work came well before their home life.

 

[signed]

I'm clearly old fashioned and my attitude is probably out of sync with many on this forum, but when I was younger I would always arrange my home life according to my work, including whatever flexibilities work might demand.

Work life balance is a thing from the past 20 years when people actually realized mental health issues actually exist, and a big part of depressions come from work-induced burnout, and work-induced burnout can happen to everyone.

Someone shouldn’t have to carry the weight of employer’s bad decisions and penny pinching unless they are high up enough in the org chart that they basically have to be on standby long hours to satisfy the VIPs while not halting career progression in the process.

It’s someone’s choice of course (and a work of balance to not make you seem lazy to your bosses), but if your contract says work x to x, and I have something planned after x, I’m out at x. If I don’t have anything, sure I’ll attend that meeting, I wasn’t doing anything anyways.

I work in a (non-railway) US multinational that record their meetings, so even if a US west coast meeting happens, most of the time the organizer will say not to worry about it and just watch the recording after.

I fully get that shift-work is incredibly different to office hours work, but I don’t believe my opinion doesn’t apply there, at least in part.

The western world isn’t a slave world like SK/Japan/India with their obscene work culture, or the US where a single wrong move is the end of your employment.

All of what I have said will be highly variable depending on someone’s personal situation and the work politics.

 

[Shrop]

Work to live, not live to work.

These are not mutually exclusive options, both are perfectly possible with a bit of planning about how you run your life.

If your work means there's a fair chance that you might be needed to assist people due to a late train, then leave a little buffer time after your shift before you make other commitments.

Just don't run your life in a manner that means you care nothing for others you leave stranded so long as you, personally, can get everything you want.

Employers could insist on factoring in a spare hour after your shift and provide rewards accordingly.

But maybe the employer/employee world in railways has become too adversarial to make that work. Selfishness seems to rule on both sides.

The car industry must be rubbing their hands about this.

 

[Harpo]

Employers could insist on factoring in a spare hour after your shift and provide rewards accordingly.

I believe that exists in signallers contracts. It also happens as a given when trains are late as crew members will often be finishing late too.

But maybe the employer/employee world in railways has become too adversarial to make that work. Selfishness seems to rule on both sides.

The myriad of differing railway T&Cs often get mentioned negatively, but each TOC/FOC variant is the result of unions working with every individual business unit to give them the bespoke arrangements that best suit each employer. Adversarial relationships would not have achieved that. If those deals still don’t deliver the company’s needs, the blame doesn’t lie with the staff.

As for the staff side in those deals, the only thing they have to sell is their labour so let’s not be surprised that it isn’t supplied freely to employers who have heavily contractualised what they want and what they’ll pay.

 

[signed]

But maybe the employer/employee world in railways has become too adversarial to make that work. Selfishness seems to rule on both sides.

Workplace culture and loyalty recognition comes down from management to the employees, never comes up from the employees to management.

If your employer is indifferent (or sometimes hostile) to you making, voluntary outside of signed contract, efforts for them, it is not selfishness to put it back to them by doing the strict minimum of work

 

[class 9]

Not according to my relative, they are in the Rosta when they have enough staff. The person has worked enough.

Well, I'm a Driver for XC, so obviously I'm wrong!!!! what's rosta? Some sort of potato?

 

[dk1]

Well, I'm a Driver for XC, so obviously I'm wrong!!!! what's rosta? Some sort of potato?

I was once a roster clerk but never the other. On the railway its alien to us if somebody says rota even.

 

[AlterEgo]

These are not mutually exclusive options, both are perfectly possible with a bit of planning about how you run your life.

If your work means there's a fair chance that you might be needed to assist people due to a late train, then leave a little buffer time after your shift before you make other commitments.

A lot of employees do indeed do this, but I'll remind you that this is far from your original objection which was about Sundays and whole driver turns going uncovered. The whole "station staff should stay five minutes more to help with one late train" has come from nowhere as if this does not routinely happen and staff are selfish.

The nature of the railway means that staying for just a short period to assist customers is very rare. The railway either runs okay or it is in meltdown, and overtime in my experience was often staying for many hours helping with customer enquiries because Birmingham New Street was closed or some other disaster. In my 20s I did plenty of this overtime to earn money to buy a house, often putting in 70-80 hour weeks, but I am nearly 40 now with a wife and kid, and to be honest I would be doing that sort of thing much less often now.

Employers could insist on factoring in a spare hour after your shift and provide rewards accordingly.

But maybe the employer/employee world in railways has become too adversarial to make that work. Selfishness seems to rule on both sides.

The world just doesn't work this way any more. You're shouting at clouds; people have got other stuff in their life, men in particular now frequently have critical childcare responsibilities, and to be honest I think people should also be able to expect to do nice or worthwhile things in their life after their shift finishes. Like @signed says the idea of work life balance has become increasingly important and whether this is generally true, or whether it is a function of just getting older and having more responsibilities I could not say personally.

What's it worth? Let's imagine I'm in the same railway job I was in ten years ago. It's 4pm and the end of my shift in Birmingham, and the late evening turn is uncovered. I get asked to stay until 8pm because Leeds is up the spout due to total signal failure and the line between Bristol and Cheltenham has a trespasser. Thousands need help. The answer as to whether I would stay is different depending on whether I:

- need to pick up my daughter in an hour (and it's my job because like many families, my wife works full time too)
- have an anniversary dinner booked with my wife at 7pm and we both need to go home and get ready
- am meeting a friend I meet every week after work for a pint
- am driving down to Milton Keynes to take my dad to watch an evening game, something which is important to us both and which he can no longer do on his own
- have committed to giving my cousin a lift to Birmingham Airport
- want to stay at home and play a new computer game
- have committed to volunteer driving food parcels for the food bank
- have literally no plans at all.

If I go home and refuse the overtime I'm sure I would just be selfish regardless of the reason. FWIW it was almost never necessary for me to stay for an extra 15-30 minutes - it was either for a long time - sometimes a whole shift, meaning I did a 14 hour day (£££) - or not at all.

It is never selfish to simply turn up, do a good job, and go home at the contracted time. (And, note - unlike my old job, many grades on the railway don't really get the luxury of choice about some overtime, especially traincrew who could be stuck on a train)

 

[Krokodil]

Not according to my relative, they are in the Rosta when they have enough staff. The person has worked enough.

There's a difference between a "standby turn" and a "spare turn".

Standby turns (where they exist) are there to cover for short notice disruption, traincrew displaced etc. They have fixed hours in the roster and will always be kept available until the start of duty - until that point you use a spare or rest day man to cover work. Not all depots have standby turns, they tend to be restricted to larger ones.

Spare turns exist to cover for annual leave, sickness, vacancies etc. A roster could be 50% booked turns, 50% spares. A spare turn can be moved a few hours forward or back (less movement allowed closer to the day) in order to cover entire turns of duty. If no work has turned up for them on the day they'll sit in the messroom alongside the standby turns and wait for a phone call to assist during disruption.

There are some variations between companies but that's a general overview.

Employers could insist on factoring in a spare hour after your shift

Traincrew often do work an extra hour. But this isn't about the odd hour, you're on about when entire shifts are uncovered.

 

[Shrop]

Traincrew often do work an extra hour. But this isn't about the odd hour, you're on about when entire shifts are uncovered.

I'm "on about" both situations. Having staff availability for an extra hour needs goodwill and flexibility from the staff themselves, as I've already suggested upthread. Staff availability for a whole shift needs planning by management.

Both situations need to be made to work if passengers / customers are to be meaningfully convinced to use the railways.

I only wish that goodwill was more readily available from both staff and management towards each other, rather than the way both sides treat the other being so heavily ruled by scepticism.

 

[Llanigraham]

I believe that exists in signallers contracts. It also happens as a given when trains are late as crew members will often be finishing late too.

It partly depends on the lengths of the signallers' shifts, and since many are 12 hour then working that extra hour can and does cause all sorts of problems, which is why it gets refused. I did it once and still the line had to close. The one occasion I did do it NR paid for a hotel room for me as I was back on nights the next night and I lived an hours drive from the Box, so there were deep concerns over tiredness. And it has to be remembered that legally there had to be 12 hours between the shifts. Shorter shift lengths obviously should make it easier.

I think what this discussion does show is that employees rights and considerations has changed vastly since the days when the OP worked, even if that wasn't in the rail industry. Certainly talking to friends who are working "outside" they also hold that their social, family and health is most important.

 

[al78]

Does anyone seriously care what the Daily Mail prints?

As it is the most popular newspaper in the UK, lots of people care.

 

[dk1]

As it is the most popular newspaper in the UK, lots of people care.

Surely even the most gullible take much of its content with a pinch of salt?

 

[DH1Commuter]

Sorry, but almost all childcare providers finish at six. Big fines for every few minutes late.

This is not a problem unique to the railway but the UK’s expensive, inflexible childcare system is a major problem and if it is my day to pick up my youngest I will drop everything to make that pick-up. When it’s not my day, I will work late if the job requires it.

 

[6Gman]

Employers could insist on factoring in a spare hour after your shift and provide rewards accordingly.

Your original complaint involved a driver being unavailable to take you from Birmingham to Southampton. That could not be covered by "a spare hour after your shift".

 

[Russel]

Sorry, but almost all childcare providers finish at six. Big fines for every few minutes late.

This is not a problem unique to the railway but the UK’s expensive, inflexible childcare system is a major problem and if it is my day to pick up my youngest I will drop everything to make that pick-up. When it’s not my day, I will work late if the job requires it.

Not sure the problem lies with childcare providers to be honest...

Luckily I don't need to rely on outside childare, but if I did, I commute via the Trent Valley 3 days a week, at lease once a week on average I'll be heavily disrupted and end up at minimum an hour late picking up, I can fully understand them being unhappy with me at the frequency at which it would happen.

 

[urbophile]

Two of the four longish-distance train journeys I have taken in the last month have been significantly disrupted. Neither was due to the fault of the network or a TOC: one was an 'incident' (aka suicide), one was a lineside fire. Both journeys qualified for the maximum delay repay. No longer a driver, I do not generally travel long journeys by road. But motorway delays owing to breakdowns or accidents can be massive, with no opportunity if you are stranded between two junctions to seek an alternative route. This has happened to me several times and there is no way to claim compensation for such delays,

So no, British trains are not reliable. Neither is the British transport system generally: we are a congested island with an outdated infrastructure. More investment would obviously help but it wouldn't be a magic wand.

 

[MicroLithium]

But motorway delays owing to breakdowns or accidents can be massive, with no opportunity if you are stranded between two junctions to seek an alternative route. This has happened to me several times and there is no way to claim compensation for such delays,

It’s a good point-my longest completely stationary delay in the past few years was on the M6, not a train, and of course there’s definitely no access to refreshments or the lavatory (apart from jumping over the Armco, which you do see). And you get to pay more for the privilege in wasted fuel, definitely no compensation

 

[Mainliner]

I do a fair amount of leisure travel by train, and am not too bothered by delays/cancellations when I don’t need to get there or back by a certain time, especially if I then receive 50% or 100% delay repay.

However, if I travel by train to a port or airport, I do go the day before the flight/sailing, as mentioned up thread, and I just look on the hotel cost as the price to pay for peace of mind and not missing a plane or ship.

So in answer to the OP’s question about whether to trust rail travel, I manage the risk as appropriate, but as I say, this is just for leisure travel, and I appreciate it’s very different for commuting or other time-critical essential travel.

 

[Shrop]

I do a fair amount of leisure travel by train, and am not too bothered by delays/cancellations when I don’t need to get there or back by a certain time, especially if I then receive 50% or 100% delay repay.

However, if I travel by train to a port or airport, I do go the day before the flight/sailing, as mentioned up thread, and I just look on the hotel cost as the price to pay for peace of mind and not missing a plane or ship.

So in answer to the OP’s question about whether to trust rail travel, I manage the risk as appropriate, but as I say, this is just for leisure travel, and I appreciate it’s very different for commuting or other time-critical essential travel.

I appreciate your points but ... if you're commuting then many are on flexible hours these days, so arriving an hour or two late can usually be accommodated. And don't forget that modern culture is often incredibly tolerant even when people go so far as to throw "sickies".

So therefore it depends a lot on your personal circumstances as to how late trains affect your commute.

Meanwhile, aiming to catch a flight or a cruise can be a lot MORE time-critical, as a couple of hours delay can lead to a missed departure. In turn this can then wreck part or all of that holiday that you've spent months earning with your commute!

Circumstances differ a lot I know - I was just offering another perspective. And yes, it's often as well to factor in an overnight stay if it's that critical. But my original point is it's unfortunate that trains are such a lottery in the UK.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2026 ==

Your original complaint involved a driver being unavailable to take you from Birmingham to Southampton. That could not be covered by "a spare hour after your shift".

This point has been covered quite a bit upthread.

 

[35B]

I appreciate your points but ... if you're commuting then many are on flexible hours these days, so arriving an hour or two late can usually be accommodated. And don't forget that modern culture is often incredibly tolerant even when people go so far as to throw "sickies".

So therefore it depends a lot on your personal circumstances as to how late trains affect your commute.

I think you over-estimate the tolerance of today's employers, and do down the work ethic of today's workforce.

Circumstances differ a lot I know - I was just offering another perspective. And yes, it's often as well to factor in an overnight stay if it's that critical. But my original point is it's unfortunate that trains are such a lottery in the UK.

It is. But doctors tend to need an accurate diagnosis before prescribing a cure, otherwise they risk making things worse.

 

[Tetragon213]

At the rate it's going, even I'm starting to lose faith in the railway for long distance travel.

A short while ago, I managed to convince my mother that taking the train was fine, that the days of ridiculous delays etc weren't as bad as reported in some gutter press publications. Lo and behold, on her outbound journey she was catastrophically delayed, and I endured one hell of a barrage of insults.

The next time, she had little choice but to use the railway again as she wasn't keen on driving 8 hours. Lo and behold, she was catastrophically delayed again, and conflicting information led to one hell of a confusing situation.

On that occasion, we took the Caledonian Sleeper as I had work the next morning. Lo and behold, we were almost an hour late into Birmingham International.

Then it was apparently my turn to feel the wrath of the railway, as I spent almost an hour in a deserted Derby Station as they cancelled the 2nd last train of the night into Sheffield, with the last being 2 hours away.

And finally. there was a horrorshow of a day where I got stuck in Bristol Temple Meads on a hot day with no air con on any trains as the system collapsed once again.

Of less than 12 intercity journeys me and my mother made, we were severely delayed nearly 50% of the time. It was a complete shambles, and I had a right old time getting Delay Repay to cough up each and every time. Complete and utter omnishambles. No wonder people prefer driving.

 

[Harpo]

It is. But doctors tend to need an accurate diagnosis before prescribing a cure, otherwise they risk making things worse.

If only some symptoms were being addressed, let alone the causes which include DfT & the treasury.