EMR Class 222’s - declining reliability

[InTheEastMids]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2026 ==


Isn’t there the 4 180s still in store can’t they bring them back crews would king need a refresher on them wouldn’t they

The basic issue is a lack of capacity at Etches Park coupled to a maintenance/repair backlog that Hitachi allowed to develop.

I am not sure in what world that adding 4 examples of a different type of unreliable train to Etches Park's to-do list is going to help anything. Plus look at the 175 thread, and how long it's taking to get them working again on GWR. Even if EMR had the 180s collected from wherever they're rotting tomorrow, it'd be 6 months before any of them were for to carry a passenger

 

[apinnard]

1B22 (222103) spectacularly lost time consistently this morning and was finally canned at Wellingborough 41 minutes late. Retiring to Etches as 5Z22.

I took my children out to London last weekend. As a resident of Kettering, I went EMR. Only for the unit lottery to really punish my itinerary. I’m taking the whole family out this weekend and have opted to drive to Northampton and take the train from there instead, as I can’t face the s**tshow that is EMR’s “service” any longer.

Delays on occasion are acceptable. Disasters are sometimes unavoidable. But consistently poor performance due to p***poor management decisions from the top-down is unforgivable. No matter how many old-school BR boys want to tell me “it is what it is.”

 

[Teapot42]

I think apinnard pretty much sums up the problem this is going to cause in both the short and long term.

Who is seriously going to trust EMR to get them where they need to be? We are planning to head to France in September. We were intending to use Eurostar. I'm now questioning whether we want to trust EMR to get us to St Pancras, or whether we are better off flying instead.

We also visit London fairly often. I recently persuaded my wife to try the train rather than me drive, and it is so much easier and quicker. But after last weekend it is going to be harder to justify it, and such decisions aren't going to disappear quickly. It could well end up where EMR have a perfectly functional service, but only those who have no choice use it as everyone else has moved on.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Delays on occasion are acceptable. Disasters are sometimes unavoidable. But consistently poor performance due to p***poor management decisions from the top-down is unforgivable. No matter how many old-school BR boys want to tell me “it is what it is.”

At least Kettering customers have the option of the Connect 2tph service.

It could well end up where EMR have a perfectly functional service, but only those who have no choice use it as everyone else has moved on

To be fair to EMR that's what they are trying to do - improve the reliability and predictability of the service by recognising the reality that Hitachi can't get more than 18 trains out of bed in the morning, and that by evening a couple of those will probably have broken at some point. It at least avoids the short notice cancellations.

The focus for a post mortem on this situation is how Hitachi have been able to get away with such poor performance on 222 maintenance, particularly as it should have been clear to them what the real state of the 810 programme was. There are 21 cl222 and Hitachi seem unable to get more than 12-13 into service each day, and it's clear at least some of the 12-13 are running about with at least one engine out.

 

[Trainman40083]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2026 ==


Isn’t there the 4 180s still in store can’t they bring them back crews would king need a refresher on them wouldn’t they

I thought they would need serious work on them. One was at Alstom Widnes for a while. Think the others were dumped at Ely.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2026 ==

At least Kettering customers have the option of the Connect 2tph service.


To be fair to EMR that's what they are trying to do - improve the reliability and predictability of the service by recognising the reality that Hitachi can't get more than 18 trains out of bed in the morning, and that by evening a couple of those will probably have broken at some point. It at least avoids the short notice cancellations.

The focus for a post mortem on this situation is how Hitachi have been able to get away with such poor performance on 222 maintenance, particularly as it should have been clear to them what the real state of the 810 programme was. There are 21 cl222 and Hitachi seem unable to get more than 12-13 into service each day, and it's clear at least some of the 12-13 are running about with at least one engine out.

Maybe a solution is Alstom at Bombardier service them. They seem to keep the Cross Country fleet going.

 

[222001]

I thought they would need serious work on them. One was at Alstom Widnes for a while. Think the others were dumped at Ely.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2026 ==


Maybe a solution is Alstom at Bombardier service them. They seem to keep the Cross Country fleet going.

I agree. Does Central Rivers have any capacity available to perhaps maintain some 222s under a subcontract too? It’s only down the road, and they seem to be doing a great job with the Lumo 222s. They constantly get 3/3 in service, with only 2 mishaps so far resulting in cancelled services. However, I imagine contracts / finance would put a stop to this happening.

 

[Merle Haggard]

At least Kettering customers have the option of the Connect 2tph service.

/snip/

The problems with the 222s and 810s have drawn attention away from the poor 360 performance. There are Connect cancellations given as 'problems with the doors' , '... traction equipment' as well as short-forming.

Another interesting situation for Kettering passengers (and those changing there from Luton, Bedford and Wellingborough) for Derby, Sheffield and the North relates to planned cancellations, at least last week. There were examples when a down Nottingham is cancelled, but the Sheffield behind, that would have provided a connection at Leicester. runs, The next half hour, the Nottingham runs - but the Sheffield behind is cancelled. A gap of an hour and a half. But it is an operations-led railway...

No trace of Monday's revised service on RTT or NRES yet.

 

[marshlinker]

I agree. Does Central Rivers have any capacity available to perhaps maintain some 222s under a subcontract too? It’s only down the road, and they seem to be doing a great job with the Lumo 222s. They constantly get 3/3 in service, with only 2 mishaps so far resulting in cancelled services. However, I imagine contracts / finance would put a stop to this happening.

Did the Lumos under go major maintenance/ overhaul between EMR and Lumo? Id imagine that the EMR 222 were being managed to use up the maximum amount of hours before major maintenance was due.

 

[Trainman40083]

Did the Lumos under go major maintenance/ overhaul between EMR and Lumo? Id imagine that the EMR 222 were being managed to use up the maximum amount of hours before major maintenance was due.

I suspect they did, mainly at the Widnes site. The ScotRail 222s will be done at Alstom Derby. Was thinking. If Hitachi were expecting great things from their new fleet and the 22#s to be mostly moved on, one might reasonably expect spares levels at the depots to be reduced. Then if the 222s have to carry on, working harder than expected, it could leave you very exposed. A lot of spare parts these days are on the basis on just in time (based on average usage). Very soon, just in time becomes just too late.

 

[duffield]

I seem to remember a lot of predictions right here around a year ago that something like this would surely happen, and that contingency plans should be put in place, but that that almost certainly would not happen.

From my selfish point of view, I'm just glad I've got a pretty reasonable substitute in both directions once an hour, as in Nottingham-Grantham-Kings Cross and reverse.

 

[david1212]

..... If Hitachi were expecting great things from their new fleet and the 22#s to be mostly moved on, one might reasonably expect spares levels at the depots to be reduced. Then if the 222s have to carry on, working harder than expected, it could leave you very exposed. A lot of spare parts these days are on the basis on just in time (based on average usage). Very soon, just in time becomes just too late.

If the 222's were end of life or destined for storage valid but as they are (eventually) to move to Scotland the routine maintenance and fault rectification spare parts will still be needed just at one or more different locations, which ought to be planned. Hence with the delay all that changes is the delivery location. Of course if there are contractual issues more complex but given Hitachi have failed to deliver on the 810's they should be stumping up to keep the 222's running.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just a footnote to say that if anyone wants to discuss the emergency timetable itself then please use the linked thread here. If we can keep this thread to specifics about the 222s unreliabilty (including causes and solutions) rather than the resulting emergency timetable that would be appreciated.

 

[Trainman40083]

If the 222's were end of life or destined for storage valid but as they are (eventually) to move to Scotland the routine maintenance and fault rectification spare parts will still be needed just at one or more different locations, which ought to be planned. Hence with the delay all that changes is the delivery location. Of course if there are contractual issues more complex but given Hitachi have failed to deliver on the 810's they should be stumping up to keep the 222's running.

Well, Hitachi won't be responsible for maintenance in Scotland. It ought to be a different company. They will get their own spare parts, and stick accordingly. But would you make it easy for a company that competed (as Hitachi v Alstom). Hitachi will be paying some form of damages to the lease company (Rock Rail), who in turn will be paying EMR. Doubt there will be any consequential losses, recovered. .Ah well. The DfT did insist on a cost plus contract, post COVID.

 

[apinnard]

The “just in time, (JIT)” supply chain strategy for parts supply that most fleet maintainers operate also leaves a lot to be desired. Not to go off-topic too much, but @Big Jumby 74 has talked about how this just doesn’t work in other threads.

Just one example; piston kits for the QSK19 are on horrendous lead-times from Cummins and reman options are sparse. Having a spare stock of parts like in the good old days made so much sense and kept things running a lot smoother.

 

[sharpener]

The “just in time, (JIT)” supply chain strategy for parts supply that most fleet maintainers operate also leaves a lot to be desired. Not to go off-topic too much, but @Big Jumby 74 has talked about how this just doesn’t work in other threads.

Just one example; piston kits for the QSK19 are on horrendous lead-times from Cummins and reman options are sparse. Having a spare stock of parts like in the good old days made so much sense and kept things running a lot smoother.

Yes, as I wrote on that other thread

"[JIT] is good in a manufacturing environment as the suppliers have long-term call-off contracts and are incentivised to bring the stock to the shop floor or the gate in the wire (or rather are penalised if they don't).

It's no good in a maintenance environment bc even if the suppliers can fulfil in 24 hours the unit is out of service until the parts can then be fitted. You need them on a shelf in the same physical facility or at most 1 hr's drive away."

 

[Railperf]

Are we saying that Alstom up the road in Central Rivers don't have a stockpile of parts that EMR / Hitachi can lay their hands on next day if required?

 

[43096]

Are we saying that Alstom up the road in Central Rivers don't have a stockpile of parts that EMR / Hitachi can lay their hands on next day if required?

Presumably the stock of parts at Muddy Waters is for Alstom’s contract to maintain the 220, 221 and Lumo 222 fleets. Why would they be carrying parts that Hitachi could use?

 

[222001]

Are we saying that Alstom up the road in Central Rivers don't have a stockpile of parts that EMR / Hitachi can lay their hands on next day if required?

I imagine Alstom would want to keep them for themselves, especially if spare parts supply is tight at the moment. It all depends on the exact set up of the maintenance agreement EMR have with Hitachi. Usually Hitachi would then have a parts agreement with Alstom of some description. I can't find anything about it online though.

 

[Amos390]

Are we saying that Alstom up the road in Central Rivers don't have a stockpile of parts that EMR / Hitachi can lay their hands on next day if required?

Possibly, they do have an entire carriage sitting there at the moment, not sure from which unit (001/2/3 or 4) but I suppose if there's a carriage then there could be other parts.

 

[marshlinker]

Yes, as I wrote on that other thread

"[JIT] is good in a manufacturing environment as the suppliers have long-term call-off contracts and are incentivised to bring the stock to the shop floor or the gate in the wire (or rather are penalised if they don't).

It's no good in a maintenance environment bc even if the suppliers can fulfil in 24 hours the unit is out of service until the parts can then be fitted. You need them on a shelf in the same physical facility or at most 1 hr's drive away."

Cummins UK Logistics Warehouse is on the North Side of Daventry about 1 hr from Derby. really helpful staff for generator engines anyway.
Something doesnt sound right to me.

 

[sharpener]

The “just in time, (JIT)” supply chain strategy for parts supply that most fleet maintainers operate also leaves a lot to be desired. Not to go off-topic too much, but @Big Jumby 74 has talked about how this just doesn’t work in other threads.

Just one example; piston kits for the QSK19 are on horrendous lead-times from Cummins and reman options are sparse. Having a spare stock of parts like in the good old days made so much sense and kept things running a lot smoother.

Cummins UK Logistics Warehouse is on the North Side of Daventry about 1 hr from Derby. really helpful staff for generator engines anyway.
Something doesnt sound right to me.

Yes but if the piston kits are like hen's teeth worldwide they cannot produce them by magic. Probably outsourced by Cummins like many engineering components so subject to the vagaries of their supplier(s). If there are limited supplies it's a difficult decision how to allocate between new production and field support.

Been there done that with mobile radios where there was a big fire at our principal battery supplier. TBF their competitors were very good about tooling up to supply compatible products but there was still a substantial delay and it cost us a lot in terms of higher prices and lost sales volumes.

Perhaps there are third-party suppliers in the market, as for many consumable parts, but who then bears the warranty consequences? On another thread someone said that cheapo spares (?cylinder seals?) were at the root of the Paxman Valenta cooling system issues.

 

[Russel]

Looking at EMR media releases, it's quite a change in tone and in my experience it's unusual for the blame to be so clearly laid at the door if a single supplier. You don't normally do this if you want to maintain a great working relationship.

The station announcements at Derby about the reduced timetable openly name Hitachi Rail, which I wasn't expecting to hear.

Though I don't like the idea of letting EMR off the hook here.

 

[Denis103]

222014 did 0530 1C08 Sheffield to StP this morning and set out with 1 toilet oou. Reached London with only 1 toilet in use on the train and air-conditioning in a coach broke. Return working 0806 1D06 to Nottingham promptly cancelled.

 

[222001]

222014 did 0530 1C08 Sheffield to StP this morning and set out with 1 toilet oou. Reached London with only 1 toilet in use on the train and air-conditioning in a coach broke. Return working 0806 1D06 to Nottingham promptly cancelled.

Looks like the whole diagram has now been binned (along with an uncovered 810 diagram), on top of the reduced service!

 

[marshlinker]

Yes but if the piston kits are like hen's teeth worldwide they cannot produce them by magic. Probably outsourced by Cummins like many engineering components so subject to the vagaries of their supplier(s). If there are limited supplies it's a difficult decision how to allocate between new production and field support.

Been there done that with mobile radios where there was a big fire at our principal battery supplier. TBF their competitors were very good about tooling up to supply compatible products but there was still a substantial delay and it cost us a lot in terms of higher prices and lost sales volumes.

Perhaps there are third-party suppliers in the market, as for many consumable parts, but who then bears the warranty consequences? On another thread someone said that cheapo spares (?cylinder seals?) were at the root of the Paxman Valenta cooling system issues.

Are the pistons actually failing in service or are large numbers required because the engines are reaching their overhaul hours that nobody has planned for because the trains were supposed to be returned to the leasing co by now?
Unless there is something specific about the UK rail engines I find it hard to believe that Cummins has a shortage of Pistons for the QSK19. Its one of the most common generator engines globally. Rail will be a minority market. Id imagine Cummins will have multiple suppliers.

 

[londonmidland]

222016 is being delayed at Derby, due to ‘a fault on this train’.

Update: this service has now been cancelled.

 

[Teapot42]

222016 is being delayed at Derby, due to ‘a fault on this train’.

Update: this service has now been cancelled.

Looking at RTT, it appears only 14 222s made it out today, of which two have failed.

I'm wondering if there is a flaw in how I'm checking though, as I can only spot 4 810s that have been one, and one failed early afternoon. That would suggest only 15 units operating currently.

 

[londonmidland]

222102 has been cancelled at Derby after working the 15:00 ex Sheffield to London, due to a fault.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Not sure how long this has been a feature of the 222 fleet but you know things aren't great when the fault is so common and unrepaired that it's with getting some special stickers printed up:

[Photo of a sticker on the vestibule door of an EMR class 222. It says "Button out of order, please use floor stud"]

 

[londonmidland]

Not sure how long this has been a feature of the 222 fleet but you know things aren't great when the fault is so common and unrepaired that it's with getting some special stickers printed up:

[Photo of a sticker on the vestibule door of an EMR class 222. It says "Button out of order, please use floor stud"]

That's been an issue for quite a while now - at least a year I think.